Posts by fulltimestudent

3

The first Islamic Mosques in Australia

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

you may not recognise this little building as a mosque, but it was actually built as a place of worship by afghan camel train drivers brought to australia to service outback australia.

its located in bourke nsw.. the first muslims of this type were brought to australia in 1860.according to hanifa deen's historical account:.

quote: "on 9 june 1860, three ‘exotic-looking’ afghan camel men landed at port melbourne from karachi with twenty or so animals to participate in the (ultimately tragic) burke and wills expedition organised by the royal society of victoria.

fulltimestudent

Thanks Smiddy, for your kind thoughts. I guess, after some 8 years of focusing on Asian history, that I'm in the fortunate position of not only knowing the framework supporting Asian history (which is where all the main threads of contemporary religious history were initiated) but having some understanding of where I can find information.

I understand you're thinking, (and Pauline's rather simplistic view of the world also). But (maybe unluckily for me) I am also in a position to understand other viewpoints. I don't want to appear to be nit-picking your post, so please understand that when I read something I can also think of information that validates or not the thought expressed.

So let me make some comments:

They, the early muslims were law abiding citizens that appreciated the country they were living in and living here peacefully .

Yes, I can agree with those sentiments, and those early camel train drivers (brought here with governmental agreement) performed a useful service in opening up the outback. I've only just realised that in writing about them, that I have little idea of how they were treated by their "English to the bootstraps" contemporaries. Perhaps, considering white settler attitudes to Chinese miners in the goldfields, they may have not have been treated so well.

But we may get some idea from what is known as the "the Battle of Broken Hill," perhaps the only time that at an enemy action has occurred on Australian soil.

Writing in 'The Monthly,' (An Aussie journal) Nicholas Shakespeare describes his view of what happened on that sad day when WWI came to outback Australia.

https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2014/november/1414760400/nicholas-shakespeare/outback-jihad

To really appreciate the feelings of the two men involved you likely need to know something of the last years of the Ottoman Empire. If you'd like to understand that (and other events still influencing our world ) you could try to get hold of Pankaj Mishra's great book, "From the Ruins of Empire: The Revolt Against the West and the Re-making of Asia"). Mishra goes into the detail attendant to the efforts to modernise Islam and other sections of Asia)

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3

The first Islamic Mosques in Australia

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

you may not recognise this little building as a mosque, but it was actually built as a place of worship by afghan camel train drivers brought to australia to service outback australia.

its located in bourke nsw.. the first muslims of this type were brought to australia in 1860.according to hanifa deen's historical account:.

quote: "on 9 june 1860, three ‘exotic-looking’ afghan camel men landed at port melbourne from karachi with twenty or so animals to participate in the (ultimately tragic) burke and wills expedition organised by the royal society of victoria.

fulltimestudent

All of the above of course, brings up the claim by newly elected Senator Pauline Hanson, that Australia is being swamped by Muslims.

It is interesting to compare Pauline's One Nation party's share of the vote and the number of Muslims in Australia.

In the 2011 census, 476,291 people were described as Muslim. (Out of 25 million approx. people in Australia. 61.1% described themselves as Christian, 22.9% said they had no religion. and Buddhists could count 2.5%. In that census, Muslims were the fourth largest group).

In the recent (2016) election, Pauline's party 'One Nation,' polled 593,013 votes representing a percentage of 4.3%. not so different to the number of Muslims in Australia.

The question of interest to other Australians is, what percentage are prepared to be terrorists?

3

The first Islamic Mosques in Australia

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

you may not recognise this little building as a mosque, but it was actually built as a place of worship by afghan camel train drivers brought to australia to service outback australia.

its located in bourke nsw.. the first muslims of this type were brought to australia in 1860.according to hanifa deen's historical account:.

quote: "on 9 june 1860, three ‘exotic-looking’ afghan camel men landed at port melbourne from karachi with twenty or so animals to participate in the (ultimately tragic) burke and wills expedition organised by the royal society of victoria.

fulltimestudent

You may not recognise this little building as a mosque, but it was actually built as a place of worship by Afghan camel train drivers brought to Australia to service Outback Australia. Its located in Bourke NSW.

The first Muslims of this type were brought to Australia in 1860.according to Hanifa Deen's historical account:

Quote: "On 9 June 1860, three ‘exotic-looking’ Afghan camel men landed at Port Melbourne from Karachi with twenty or so animals to participate in the (ultimately tragic) Burke and Wills expedition organised by the Royal Society of Victoria. The ill-fated journey, however, proved the merit of camel over horse and bullock. Over the next ten years, British entrepreneurs imported significant numbers of camels with their handlers, and more animals were unloaded at Derby and Fremantle in Western Australia, Port Augusta in South Australia and Port Melbourne."

( Reference: http://www.slv.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/La-Trobe-Journal-89-Hanifa-Deen.pdf )

The first mosques were basic utilitarian buildings as clearly indicated by this next image:

The image shows a mosque at Maree (South Australia) in 1884. It could be the first mosque built in Australia, probably in the early 1860's.

These building (and the builders) were not the first Islamic contacts with Australia,

Australia's nearest neighbour, Indonesia, had gradually converted to Islam after Islam was brought into Indonesia by Sufi traders from Gujarat, India during the 13th century (CE) and by the 16th century, Islam had surpassed Hinduism and Buddhism as the dominant religion of the peoples in the Indonesian island chain.

By the early 18th century, Muslim Macassan traders from Indonesia were visiting the N.W. coast of Australia. Local indigenous art and language attests to their visits. If they built places of prayer or mosques, nothing has survived.

What I've quoted here comes from an academic study by Sam Bowker, a lecturer at Charles Sturt University.

The full essay was posted in 'The Conversation'

You can access it at: http://theconversation.com/friday-essay-the-australian-mosque-65101?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20for%20September%2023%202016%20-%205655&utm_content=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20for%20September%2023%202016%20-%205655+CID_0fd9ae7608de675efc856f0fa3af9746&utm_source=campaign_monitor&utm_term=Friday%20essay%20the%20Australian%20Mosque

8

What were two Chinese doing in Roman London?

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

in the ancient world, people moved around much more than we may have expected, (think of paul's reported journeys and those of his supporters), but the identification of two skeletons in a roman era burial ground, as chinese has surprised historians.. the uk bbc reports: .

dr rebecca redfern, curator of human osteology at the museum of london, told bbc radio 4's the world at one, the find was "the first time in roman britain we've identified people with asian ancestry" and it was "absolutely phenomenal".. http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-37452287.

fulltimestudent

Hey, BluesBrother, that's an excellent observation:

"It kind of puts an end to the WT claim that the "Good News" was preached throughout all the then known world, i e The Mediterranean area in Paul's day..."

The Romans and the Han Empire, definitely knew of each other's existence. The JW claim is of course typical of ideas formed by relatively uneducated people. And, of course, (as an aside) YHWH if he exists, must know all of the humans on the earth. So why???? inspire Paul to write to the Colossian Christians:

"This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant." (Colossians 1:23 NIV)

Plainly it was a lie!

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4

Cart Witnessing in Hong Kong

by scratchme1010 in

jw
friends

i was away for a few weeks since i was on a nice vacation in thailand, hong kong and macau.

during my vacationi saw several jws in carts standing by different parts of the cities i visited.. i hong king, however, i noticed that they were a lot more and in a lot more places where i wouldn't think i would see jws with their carts.

they were at the entrance of men's rooms (and not by women's rooms) in public and (what i imagine is) private property (entrances of public transportation places and shopping malls).

fulltimestudent

OrphanCrow : Scratchme, Hong Kong has a history of street vendors that is not seen on mainland China.

If you visit the PRC, you will find that street vendors are quite common. I've had 12 or more visits since the year 2000, and every visit, and in many cities I've noted street vendors. Food may be the favourite item, but clothing and household items are also common, as are things like shoe repairs, bicycle repairs and even clothing repairs, once saw a woman with a treadle sewing machine repairing clothing- all on the street.

\Just last night I watched a Chinese TV show on Australia's SBS called and one of the contestants described how he had made a lot of money through street vending.

On the other hand I know that there can be some harassment, but that could be related to the possibility that its possible that in some areas they need a city licence.

The reason there are no witness carts on Chinese streets, is that JWs do not have legal recognition*, so no 'legal' meetings or activity. ( NB. They also 'banned' in Singapore**)

* See: http://www.refworld.org/docid/45f147082f.html

** Quote: "In 1972 the Government deregistered the Singapore Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses on the grounds that its existence was prejudicial to public welfare and order because its members refuse to perform military service (obligatory for all male citizens), salute the flag, or swear oaths of allegiance to the state.At the time, there were approximately 200 Jehovah's Witnesses in the country; as of 2007 there were approximately two thousand. Although the Court of Appeals in 1996 upheld the rights of members of Jehovah's Witnesses to profess, practice, and propagate their religious belief, and the Government does not arrest members for being believers, the result of deregistration has been to make public meetings of Jehovah's Witnesses illegal." (See - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Singapore) The reasons for the PRC ban are likely to be similar.

8

What were two Chinese doing in Roman London?

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

in the ancient world, people moved around much more than we may have expected, (think of paul's reported journeys and those of his supporters), but the identification of two skeletons in a roman era burial ground, as chinese has surprised historians.. the uk bbc reports: .

dr rebecca redfern, curator of human osteology at the museum of london, told bbc radio 4's the world at one, the find was "the first time in roman britain we've identified people with asian ancestry" and it was "absolutely phenomenal".. http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-37452287.

fulltimestudent

In the ancient world, people moved around much more than we may have expected, (think of Paul's reported journeys and those of his supporters), but the identification of two skeletons in a Roman era burial ground, as Chinese has surprised historians.

The UK BBC reports:

Dr Rebecca Redfern, curator of human osteology at the Museum of London, told BBC Radio 4's The World at One, the find was "the first time in Roman Britain we've identified people with Asian ancestry" and it was "absolutely phenomenal".

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-37452287

6

Where was Jesus (or YHWH) when little children needed them?

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

it is claimed by christians that jesus cares deeply for children, for the gospel says:.

15now people were even bringing their babies to jesus for him to place his hands on them.

and when the disciples saw this, they rebuked them.

fulltimestudent

It is claimed by Christians that Jesus cares deeply for children, for the gospel says:

15Now people were even bringing their babies to Jesus for Him to place His hands on them. And when the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called the children to Him and said, “Let the little children come to Me and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. (Luke 18:15-17).

So why is it then, that this supposed 'Lord of all things', will let little children suffer in any way?

But particularly so, when those who inflict the suffering claim that they are special representatives of Jesus? This is the second post on Father Gerald Ridsdale, and his associates. More horror details have emerged about his torment of young children, how can anyone maintain that 'Jesus cares', when faced with the vicious treatment, sexually and physically of these young children, that this so-called 'saviour of mankind,' has observed without action.

Australia's SBS network reports:

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/feature/girls-paedophile-and-cardinal-pell?cx_navSource=related-side-cx#cxrecs_s

In the face of these damning reports, we can conclude that either this Jesus, does not exist, or that he does not care what happened to these children.

It is not a matter of what religion is 'his' religion. It is only about the suffering of small children and the failure of Jesus to take action to protect them.

9

Pity the poor Bible believers - Australian Native People left Africa over 70,000 years ago

by fulltimestudent in

many bible believers accept the genesis documents explanations of human origins.

but the modern science of genomics is making that a very difficult intellectual position to hold.. increasingly, to believe the bible, is to accept superstition over rationality.. three papers published in the scientific journal nature demonstrate the point:.

1. the ancestors of australia aboriginal and papuan peoples left africa around 72,000 years ago.. 2. they arrived in the geological locations we now identify as australia and papua around 50,000 years ago.

fulltimestudent

dropoffyourkeylee : Bible thumpers aside, why were the aborigines so isolated? Did they not have any knowledge of boats? The Chinese and the Polynesians were travelling long distances, why didn't they touch Australia? There must be reasons for this

There certainly are reasons, the problem is that while one could think of possible reasons, it is almost impossible to verify them. Language is one way to attempt to work out how peoples moved, but it's only with the advent of genomics that it became possible to work out relationships. Likely we will never have all the answers as to what occurred.

The native peoples of Australia possible reached the Australian land mass during a period when a land-bridge existed between the Malaysian peninsula, through the Indonesian islands and N.W. Australia. If that occurred some 40,000 years B.P. and later ocean levels rose to the extent necessary to isolate these peoples, then we can see some reasons for the isolation. Aust. native peoples did not (it seems) develop the skills neccessary for large boat building. The earliest Europeans to reach Australia noted the types of water craft used by the native peoples and there does not seem to have been any observed large boats. But, we need to note that these people were not as primitive as some Australians of European descent have described.

A Wikipedia entry offers some of the theories that have been developed to explain the origins of Pacific basin peoples. You can find it at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynesians

When the entry speaks of Taiwanese, it does not mean the Chinese inhabitants, but refers to the earlier native Taiwanese people (descendants of whom still live in Taiwan)

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_aborigines) - Its theorised that the Polynesian peoples originated there. Note some similarities in this image:

The original peoples of Taiwan certainly had the maritime skills to make ocean journeys, as you see of some of them in the watercraft they still build.

This diagram illustrates one concept of migration.

and another slightly different concept:

You may also find this reference helpful:

ttps:/ /www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090122141146.htm

Its also important not to conflate time periods. What people did 40,000 years ago is different to what people did 2000 years ago when the Chinese initiated coastal shipping and moving across the South China sea, and one thousand years ago when Polynesians began their voyages.

33

Two Brothers Living Together - Never Dated Girls...

by pale.emperor in

in my old congregation there are two brothers (non related) who are in the early 30s.

they've never dated girls.

they're "best friends".

fulltimestudent

It is JW dogma that gay people can change.

The belief is based (at least) on the letter claimed to have been written by the Apostle Paul to Christian congregation in Corinth, part of which states:

"... Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, ... none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; " (1 Cor. 6: 9-11 NLT)

There seems little doubt that the leadership firmly believes that if you are same sex attracted, you can change, as we note that the top leadership has included people who can be described as same sex attracted, but were (supposed to be) not leading an active sex life.

It is worth noting that 'homosexuality' the English word denoting same sex attraction, and which is now applied to people who are seen as 'gay' whether or not they engage in same sex behaviour.

In biblical times, there does not seem to have been a word to describe a latent tendency toward same sex attraction, but only action words. words describing what people did.

9

Pity the poor Bible believers - Australian Native People left Africa over 70,000 years ago

by fulltimestudent in

many bible believers accept the genesis documents explanations of human origins.

but the modern science of genomics is making that a very difficult intellectual position to hold.. increasingly, to believe the bible, is to accept superstition over rationality.. three papers published in the scientific journal nature demonstrate the point:.

1. the ancestors of australia aboriginal and papuan peoples left africa around 72,000 years ago.. 2. they arrived in the geological locations we now identify as australia and papua around 50,000 years ago.

fulltimestudent

In this video from the Natural History Museum of Denmark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kbRxSzDE4k

Professor Eske Willerslev discusses the conclusions of the studies.