fulltimestudent

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Posts by fulltimestudent

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  9

  Australia's Religious Discrimination Act.

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this is an interesting and intriguing new law (or, it will be if enacted in its present form).. quote: "the proposed new religious discrimination act is intended to prevent a person from being discriminated against on the basis of their religion.".

  fair enough, but to get it through the house of representatives last night, the government accepted some changes.. the first draft (discussed last night) had a clause that may have impacted the rights of some gay and/or trans-sexual students at religious schools by allowing a religious school to expel such a student.

  last night the government was forced to accept changes that removed that possibility.

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  fulltimestudent

  
  

  Smiddy3 posted: "In my mind if that law had passed,it would have discriminated against any organization Christian or otherwise to enforce rules for entry into their establishments."

  To understand precisely what was discussed would require a reading of the draft bill and the Hansard (parliamentary record) of the debate.

  As I understood it, the debated point referred to students at an educational facility run by some religious group. I doubt that anyone old enough to be thinking about their sexuality would want to start to go to such a school. I understood the issue concerned children, enrolled in a religious school from an early age, reaching (puberty??) and finding they were same sex attracted or transexual and doing or saying something that would lead the school authorities to believe they were gay or transexual, who then expelled them from the school

  NB. That may not always happen of course. I've spoken (you may recall I have a XJW friend who was DF'd for being gay. He got pissed of with this site ages ago and wont post) to some younger gay guys who attended Catholic schools and were treated compassionately by their teachers, even being able to joke about their situation. Of course, also some others told a different story.

  It was that issue, rather than that of a gay adult wishing to join a homophobic religion that was part of the debate, and that caused many members of the rightwing political parties, that form the current Australian government, to vote against their own Govt's bill.

  The present PM is aN 'active' member of a Pentecostal type church. He had promised the leaders of some churches that he would introduce this bill and enact it before the next Federal election, which is due soon. His party holds office with a small majority and he failed to consider whether all members of his party would support the Bill.

  In my initial post, I explored the possibilities that gay XJWs could explore if wishing to take some action over being DF'd.

  To my surprise some posters on this site seem to think that the JWs have a right to disfellowship non-conforming members.
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  9

  Australia's Religious Discrimination Act.

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this is an interesting and intriguing new law (or, it will be if enacted in its present form).. quote: "the proposed new religious discrimination act is intended to prevent a person from being discriminated against on the basis of their religion.".

  fair enough, but to get it through the house of representatives last night, the government accepted some changes.. the first draft (discussed last night) had a clause that may have impacted the rights of some gay and/or trans-sexual students at religious schools by allowing a religious school to expel such a student.

  last night the government was forced to accept changes that removed that possibility.

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  fulltimestudent

  This is an interesting and intriguing new Law (or, it will be if enacted in its present form).

  Quote: "The proposed new Religious Discrimination Act is intended to prevent a person from being discriminated against on the basis of their religion."

  Well. fair enough, but to get it through the House of Representatives last night, the government accepted some changes.

  The first draft (discussed last night) had a clause that may have impacted the rights of some gay and/or trans-sexual students at religious schools by allowing a religious school to expel such a student

  Last night the government was forced to accept changes that removed that possibility. (actually while that's how some news sources announced the changes, it is not quite clear that that was the case - the Bill now goes to the Senate, where more legal argument are certain.

  But, my mind jumped to the future. Suppose this law actually does prevent gay/trans-sexual staff and students being expelled from a school, how long do you think it may be before some strong-minded young gay/trans-sexual raised as JW and disfellowshiped for being gay or trans-sexual, decides to challenge the JWs right to disfellowship on those ground? The Act is not covering that situation (as far as I know) but as a general principle it may set a precedent, and one way to find that out is to get a smart lawyer to help test it in a series of courts up to the High Court of Australia.

  Should be interesting. And there will not be too many Australians interested in defending the JWs right to disfellowship on those grounds.

  My quote was from an article this morning on the ABC web-site. The ABC is an Aust. government owned media/news service. And while government owned it is not government controlled.

  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-09/liberal-ministers-discrimination-transgender-exclusion-problem/100815346

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  12

  Australian bethelites helped the war and soldiers during W.W.2!!

  by Witness 007 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  australia bethel is even today near a military barracks.

  in world war 2 the head of bethel agreed to wash military uniforms at bethel to make extra cash.

  meanwhile brothers around the world were in jail for refusing to even put on a military uniform or even perform any non military work.

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  fulltimestudent

  Even back in the early 1950s, I never heard that about MacGillivary.

  But I have it from a worker at the Ingleburn venture that the brother in charge ran a betting shop, and spent all and every Saturday afternoon at this personal venture. So that could be the source of that particular story.

  The young witness that studied with me, came from a family that had been witnesses from before WW2, and who lived about 2 km from Strathfield Bethel. If MacGillivary had been involved in gambling etc, I think that this family would've known about it. Another source- the former bro. who looked after the accounting for the branch. His wife and daughter were still witnesses and I went out with the daughter a few times - none of them mentioned MacGillivary as a gambler.

  Jws back there, that had been witnesses during the war, all knew about the commercial activities and at least some things that were plainly wrong, but none of them ever mentioned MacGillivary as a gambler. My sources included brothers who had worked in the printing shop, and the brother who'd been very prominent in Newcastle and the 2HD radio station and its scandals. At one time, when I was a special pioneer, my wife and I had lived in a flat owned by a sister who'd been a Jw through all those years. Her daughters had pioneered and went to Gilead and on to missionary assignments. She knew and told stories of the "bad" days - but never once about MacGillivary and his gambling.
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  12

  Australian bethelites helped the war and soldiers during W.W.2!!

  by Witness 007 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  australia bethel is even today near a military barracks.

  in world war 2 the head of bethel agreed to wash military uniforms at bethel to make extra cash.

  meanwhile brothers around the world were in jail for refusing to even put on a military uniform or even perform any non military work.

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  fulltimestudent

  Even back in the early 1950s, I never heard that about him. But I have it from a worker at the Ingleburn venture that the brother in charge ran a betting shop, and spent all and every Saturday afternoon at this personal venture
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  65

  Ukraine - Nato - US crisis

  by mikeflood in

  1. social
  2. current

  don't understand....but this crisis in ukraine seems to be getting out of control....i mean, everybody knows how to start a war..... by the way, as always, people at the borg are having a field day.....

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  fulltimestudent

  An interesting sidelight on this issue:

  I didn't notice a news report on the following in the Australian media, but it makes you wonder about the whole issue!

  In a media meet-up Ukrainian President (pictured) told the assembled journalists.
  

  
  

  Quote:

  Press stunned as Ukraine leader points finger at west Nury Vittachi - Feb 1, 2022

  In a stunning and unexpected outburst this week, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky told the press that his country’s current problems came from the West rather than the East.
  

  The fears of a looming war were built on news stories that Russia had troops on the border it shares with the country — but this was not unusual, and there had been a similar assembly of soldiers a year ago, he said.

  The truth was that the threat level had not changed, he told a press conference this week.

  Furthermore, the real threat to Ukraine was not Russia, but the “destabilisation of the situation inside the country” he told journalists.

  The cause of the panic was the press itself, Zelensky said.

  Correspondents at the event were discomfited. The event was “a slightly surreal encounter” said the BBC’s Sarah Rainsford.

  The Ukrainian leader went on to slam the US, British and other Western diplomats who were fleeing the country, as if the much-described war was actually real.

  He denied that Ukraine was a sinking ship, but even if they saw it that way, “diplomats are like captains. They should be the last to leave a sinking ship.” unquote,

  Link: (For full article) https://johnmenadue.com/press-stunned-as-ukraine-leader-points-finger-at-west/

  ----------------

  There's more, of course, and I guess some may say that we may expect that sort of talk from someone with a Russian name. (The journalists name is Nury Vittachi ) But the basic question is did or did not Zelensky say what he's quoted as saying. If he did, are we entitled to ask why the Western press is raising the issue temperature?
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  12

  Australian bethelites helped the war and soldiers during W.W.2!!

  by Witness 007 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  australia bethel is even today near a military barracks.

  in world war 2 the head of bethel agreed to wash military uniforms at bethel to make extra cash.

  meanwhile brothers around the world were in jail for refusing to even put on a military uniform or even perform any non military work.

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  fulltimestudent

  Duplicated post deleted
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  12

  Australian bethelites helped the war and soldiers during W.W.2!!

  by Witness 007 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  australia bethel is even today near a military barracks.

  in world war 2 the head of bethel agreed to wash military uniforms at bethel to make extra cash.

  meanwhile brothers around the world were in jail for refusing to even put on a military uniform or even perform any non military work.

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  fulltimestudent

  Continuing my first post:

  2. I knew some witnesses who had lived through those days. An elderly sister (name forgotten) had been the branch overseer's secretary. His name was MacGillivary. She wouldn't (rightly or wrongly) hear a word against him.

  MacGillivary had the distinction of being shot by an army sentry at Strathfield Bethel. To explain this, I'll first use this quote from another source. It outlines my understanding ot the times.

  Quote: "In the concern for national security, a Federal Government order was issued in January 1941 that 'any body, corporate or unincorporate...prejudicial to the defence of the Commonwealth or efficient prosecution of the war, is thereby declared to be unlawful' (Gillman 1988) . On this basis, Commonwealth authorities moved to dissolve the organisation. Meetings, printing and the circulation of the Society's publications was prohibited and the office, factory and warehouse of the Jehovah's Witnesses in Strathfield, New South Wales, was seized. Nonetheless, the Society continued during this period, meeting in homes and door knocking using only the Bible. Despite restrictions, the movement held its national convention in 1941 with delegates travelling from all over Australia, some even using cars with charcoal-fed gas producers." end of quote.

  Source: https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/95532/early-australian-history-jehovahs-witnesses

  As a result of that order. the Australian army was sent to occupy the Strathfield Bethel. But the Bethel family were allowed to continue living there. MacGillivary came home late one night, and was challenged by the sentry.. MacGillivary made a silly flippant remark and the sentry responded by shooting him. I'm not interested in arguing either way over the rights and wrongs of that incident.

  In 1943, the WTS was able take their case to the Australian High Court which found that the ban was Unconstitutional.

  Some brothers refused commercial assignments. Bill and Linda Schneider were sent to the Aussie backblocks for refusing to take charge of some commercial project. Ironically Bill was a veteran from WW1.

  Is criticism of the Australian branch and brothers justified? Knorr came to Australia as soon as possible after WW2 ended and was extremely critical of the commercial activities. Most people I knew (high and low) followed Knorr's line. I did too, but now I think that they were wrong too. If Paul could work for a living, why couldn't a small group of a few thousand (not many rich in it then) do commercial work. Some of that work, at least, would have been beneficial to Australia (just as paying taxs today would be). Most able-bodied men would have been in the army so there would have been a shortage of tradesmen.

  Next post we can look at the 'bethel' near an army camp.
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  12

  Australian bethelites helped the war and soldiers during W.W.2!!

  by Witness 007 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  australia bethel is even today near a military barracks.

  in world war 2 the head of bethel agreed to wash military uniforms at bethel to make extra cash.

  meanwhile brothers around the world were in jail for refusing to even put on a military uniform or even perform any non military work.

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  fulltimestudent

  Umm, some things need correction.

  The main contention that the JWs back there compromised their neutrality is essentially true, But I'd like to point out some problems in the posts.

  1. In the period, 1939-1945, the branch home (Bethel) was located in Strathfield, less than 15 km from Sydney CBD. That move was in 1929, was well before WW2. Maybe, it was the move to Strathfield that was responsible for the subsequent 'commercialisation' of the organisation. (I began to associate with the witnesses somewhere around 1950. Took me a while to become convinced enough to get baptised in 1953) There were still lots of witnesses around to talk about the 'old' days. The common consensus was that after buying the Strathfield property they had no money to do anything. The did have a guillotine, and were offered a chance to cut up some paper by someone. They did - for payment and that's how it all started. But maybe in the aussie way of doing things, it soon got out of hand, with fulltime service brothers, getting involved in all sorts of building projects.

  There were also some radio stations that also began to sell commercial advertising. Of course, that involved becoming friends with people who wanted to advertise their products, So the brothers who sold the advertising would put on weekend parties, with everyone getting paralytic drunk. In later years I pioneered in Newcastle, the home of 2HD (still in existence, but no longer owned by the WTS) and many old brothers and sisters could tell stories about the parties at 2HD.

  I'll post later about the WTS property at Ingleburn, which the earlier posts confused with the earlier Strathfield branch
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  20

  What is your IQ? Does it Matter?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i had an aunt that had rheumatic fever as a child and only had an iq the high 70's.

  but, absolutely no one was able to bs her on an emotional level.

  she had an uncanny ability to see through people's bs.

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  fulltimestudent

  Vienne- I smiled at your comments. I worked for a great guy once who was also a member of Mensa, it's interesting that in a discussion once he commented that the guy who had the highest IQ in the Aussie branch of the group, lived in a shack, on the edge of the desert in Western Aust, and in my friend's words, "was so intelligent, that he couldn't hold a job.'
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  20

  What is your IQ? Does it Matter?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i had an aunt that had rheumatic fever as a child and only had an iq the high 70's.

  but, absolutely no one was able to bs her on an emotional level.

  she had an uncanny ability to see through people's bs.

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  fulltimestudent

  I have (supposedly) a high IQ, but was still dumb enough to fall for theJW/christian shit,

  Actually, I became an athiest at 14 (mainly because the son (a hulking brute) of the local Methodist minister used to bash me up.