Posts by fulltimestudent

15

Homeopathy and Jehovah's Witnesses.

by jojorabbit in

years ago, the jws did not like modern medicine.

vaccines and other things were all deemed bad.

this gave rise to a lot of jws getting into alternative medicines.

fulltimestudent

Vogel was certainly a witness. He once spent several weeks staying with a JW family I knew in Tahiti. He used to walk around the island (so they told me) picking leaves off trees and telling them what it was good for. It is my understanding (that apart from his bread, once well-known in Australia) his products were a mix of homepathic medicines and herbal medicines. They were, as SBF remarked, extremely popular in Germany, as this Bloomberg news item discusses.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-10-12/homeopathy-doesn-t-work-so-why-do-so-many-germans-believe-in-it#:~:text=Roughly%20half%20of%20Germany's%20population,re%20satisfied%20with%20the%20treatment.

The above article also points out that homeopathy is also popular in India, where it is seen as akin to traditional ayurvedic medicine.

To understand the popularity of homeopathy we need to appreciate that it came into use in a time when orthodox medicine was not very advanced either.

But I do appreciate that its popularity in the JW org, is just a minor bit of evidence that the HS did not tell the the FDS that it was going to be superseded by evidence-based scientific medicine.

And as for Alfie Vogel, he did, I understand, finish his life disfellowshipped

32

Who are the 144,000? Considering the immediate context of Revelation chapter 7

by raymond frantz in

who are the 144,000?

a critical examination of the teaching of the 144,000 from the perspective of an ex jx considering context and other references .this is from a series of videos called new light where i scrutinise all the major teachings of the watchtower.. https://youtu.be/aaseuzr-sxs.

fulltimestudent

How do your make sense out of religious people's fantasies?

21

Was 536 the Worst year in history

by pistolpete in

jws believe that today, the time we live in is the worst time ever in history.

i know cause i just had a jw tell me yesterday this was the case.

he pointed to covid, the russian-ukraine war, the high gas prices and the food shortage happening.

fulltimestudent

vienne: "But it may be that she was once convinced and does not want to face the possibility of error."

I agree with your assessment. The woman I spoke of, had become a JW after a study with another older woman, and that likely was the first intellectual effort in her life. I doubt that school would have provided her with any skills, outside of reading and writing. She was a similar age to my own parents, and my own parents had had only 5/6 years of school. My father learned (himsself) basic surveying skills which he needed in his govt. job, my mother became a seamstress and both had productive lives. I'm sure that the Jw woman I posted about also had a productive life, but (like my parents) her education would not have prepared her for analysing arguments.

So having met some other nice jw ladies, and perhaps finding a social circle for the first time in her life, she became disturbed when challenged to 'prove' something.

I saw a similar situation when pioneering. In this small country town in NSW to which the Branch (with divine wisdom) assigned me, there was a small congregation. One sister had had a tragedy in her life. Some years after her husband had left her and their only son, the boy had an accident and required a blood transfusion. Others supported her in refusing the transfusion (as no doubt I would've done had I been there in her crisis). The boy died and this woman lapsed into depression, eventually choosing to end her life. A very sad story, and I should say that no-one in that small congregation was equipped to help her. In talking to her, I realised that she had no thinking skills, and had made her decision to refuse the transfusion simply on 'faith.' And, I guess her eventual suicide was also predictable. I was about 22 y.o and had no training that may have helped, nor, I venture to say, would any person in J's 'amazing' organisation have the training necessary to return that woman to mental health.

21

Was 536 the Worst year in history

by pistolpete in

jws believe that today, the time we live in is the worst time ever in history.

i know cause i just had a jw tell me yesterday this was the case.

he pointed to covid, the russian-ukraine war, the high gas prices and the food shortage happening.

fulltimestudent

TonusOH commented: "I don't think most JWs could explain what makes these the worst times"

How true, many of the older JWs had little education, and as a result had a shortfall in thinking ability. I recall one unbelieving husband complaining to me, every time I ask my wife why she believed something, she gets hysterical.

I felt sorry for him, but also for his wife, faced with trying to explain complicated issues, just could not explain JW beliefs.

Maybe that's why (according to what I read here) few young people, who presumably have a better education, stick to what they are told, 'is the truth!'

21

Was 536 the Worst year in history

by pistolpete in

jws believe that today, the time we live in is the worst time ever in history.

i know cause i just had a jw tell me yesterday this was the case.

he pointed to covid, the russian-ukraine war, the high gas prices and the food shortage happening.

fulltimestudent

To declare any year as 'the worst year in history.' we need to look beyond a Eurocentric view, and beyond West Asia.

I havn't the background knowledge to check what was happening in North and South America, or Southern Africa or the Australian continent. Although I imagine that the Icelandic volcanic eruption would certainly affect all the northern hemisphere, But I can comment reasonably on Eastern Asia especially China. This area too was affected by both climate and political events. The authors of this article suggest that the political events in that year (and that time period) around China were related to climate events.

See, "Natural Disasters in the History of the Eastern Turk Empire,"

Link: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-00728-7_8#Sec9

The article Abstract reads, "This article analyzes the effect of climate extremes on the historical processes that took place (AD 536, 581, 601, 626 and 679) in the Eastern Turk Empire (AD 534–745) in Inner Asia. Climate extremes are sharp, strong and sometimes protracted periods of cooling and drought caused by volcanic eruptions that in this case resulted in a negative effect on the economy of a nomadic society and were often accompanied by famine and illness. In fact, many of these natural catastrophes coincided with the Black Death pandemics among the Eastern Turks and the Chinese living in the north of China. The Turk Empire can be split into several chronological periods during which significant events that led to changes in the course of history of the nomadic state took place: AD 534–545—the rise of the Turk Empire; AD 581–583—the division of the Turk Empire into the Western and the Eastern Empires; AD 601–603—the rise of Qimin Qaghan; AD 627–630—the Eastern Turks are conquered by China; AD 679–687—the second rise of the Eastern Turk Empire. The research shows that there is clearly-discernable interplay between important historical events and climate extremes in the history of the Turk Empire. This interplay has led us to the conclusion that the climatic factor did have an impact on the historical processes that took place in the eastern part of Inner Asia, especially on the territories with a nomadic economy."

And the article's authors conclude: "Though much discussion is going on at present among researchers concerning the problem of the influence of climate changes on nomadic society, we hold to the opinion that the historical events that took place in the Turk Empire in AD 534–551 and in AD 679–687 developed in a line parallel to the unfavorable changes in climate which may be considered as an additional factor that led to changes in the regional situation. Historical sources show that in the year AD 534 the Turks had already become stronger—a fact that happened prior to the climate extremes, but the discontent of the Turks with Emperor Gaozong’s (AD 650–683) policy grew during the whole period of his reign and it is this that led to the rebellion of AD 679. Nevertheless, the sharp changes in the economic and political situation in the Turk Empire in AD 581–583, in AD 599–603 and in AD 627–630 totally coincide with the extreme changes in climate in these periods, a fact that may be looked upon as indirect proof of the interplay of historical processes in the region with climate dynamics."

For anyone that is interested in examining this issue further there's a need to establish what was happening in the Southern hemisphere, and I suggest in India.

11

How did Christianity Achieve its Position as the World's Largest Religious Grouping?

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

there is little evidence to indicate that there were many christians in the first 2 or 3 centuries of its existence.

but after the conversion of constantine (or, at least his toleration of christianity) things changed.

with one notable exception all future emperors promoted christianity.

fulltimestudent

OK, DisillusionedJW - Here's some starters to think about.

1. I agree with Peter Heather's conclusions, Constantine's adoption of Xtianity as the Roman state religion. That spread Xtianity into much of Europe, North Africa and West Asia, though in the last two areas it did not survive the Islamic onslaught.

2. The rise of Xtian Western Europe as a colonial power, (as Bungi Bill's post suggests) Spain in particular was extremely successful in enforcing the adoption of Xtianity as the state religion in Central and South America and the Philippines.

There were failures of course, notably Japan where the RC church had established itself in Nagasaki and was starting to spread among the elite, and the government took the extreme step of trying to exterminate all Xtians. The French had more success in the parts of S.E Asia that it took control of at the beginning of the nineteenth C. But, the British attempt to Xtianise China also failed.

31

Hi people!

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

hi guys, owyergoin?

(that’s australian for youse foreigners!

haven’t called in quite a while but just called by to say “i’m still standing and still enjoying shiraz !.

fulltimestudent

Yeah, Hi mate... Are you still down Narooma way?

73

Ukraine - Nato - US crisis

by mikeflood in

don't understand....but this crisis in ukraine seems to be getting out of control....i mean, everybody knows how to start a war..... by the way, as always, people at the borg are having a field day.....

fulltimestudent

I read a Web version of the Asia Times every day. The Asia Times is a Hongkong based internet news source, owned by a group headed by David Goldman, a former New York financier (and a US citizen, who claims he voted for Trump in the election before last),

In an article by Goldman, the following statement, "Ukraine Prime Minister Volodymyr Zelensky’s remark February 14 that Russia would attack his country on the 16th of February sent stock markets tumbling before a senior aide qualified the statement as a joke."

Which says a lot about western reactions to the whole episode.

It is, I'm guessing an indication of the gut fears of the Anglo sphere, that they are losing their 2+ century position as Boss of the world.

If you wish to read Goldman's comments, here's the link for the article titled:

The market’s Russia reaction is overdone, no joke.

https://asiatimes.com/2022/02/the-markets-russia-reaction-is-overdone-no-joke/?mc_cid=92b4d1d16a&mc_eid=e1fa152f99

9

Australia's Religious Discrimination Act.

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

this is an interesting and intriguing new law (or, it will be if enacted in its present form).. quote: "the proposed new religious discrimination act is intended to prevent a person from being discriminated against on the basis of their religion.".

fair enough, but to get it through the house of representatives last night, the government accepted some changes.. the first draft (discussed last night) had a clause that may have impacted the rights of some gay and/or trans-sexual students at religious schools by allowing a religious school to expel such a student.

last night the government was forced to accept changes that removed that possibility.

fulltimestudent

Smiddy3 posted: "In my mind if that law had passed,it would have discriminated against any organization Christian or otherwise to enforce rules for entry into their establishments."

To understand precisely what was discussed would require a reading of the draft bill and the Hansard (parliamentary record) of the debate.

As I understood it, the debated point referred to students at an educational facility run by some religious group. I doubt that anyone old enough to be thinking about their sexuality would want to start to go to such a school. I understood the issue concerned children, enrolled in a religious school from an early age, reaching (puberty??) and finding they were same sex attracted or transexual and doing or saying something that would lead the school authorities to believe they were gay or transexual, who then expelled them from the school

NB. That may not always happen of course. I've spoken (you may recall I have a XJW friend who was DF'd for being gay. He got pissed of with this site ages ago and wont post) to some younger gay guys who attended Catholic schools and were treated compassionately by their teachers, even being able to joke about their situation. Of course, also some others told a different story.

It was that issue, rather than that of a gay adult wishing to join a homophobic religion that was part of the debate, and that caused many members of the rightwing political parties, that form the current Australian government, to vote against their own Govt's bill.

The present PM is aN 'active' member of a Pentecostal type church. He had promised the leaders of some churches that he would introduce this bill and enact it before the next Federal election, which is due soon. His party holds office with a small majority and he failed to consider whether all members of his party would support the Bill.

In my initial post, I explored the possibilities that gay XJWs could explore if wishing to take some action over being DF'd.

To my surprise some posters on this site seem to think that the JWs have a right to disfellowship non-conforming members.

9

Australia's Religious Discrimination Act.

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

this is an interesting and intriguing new law (or, it will be if enacted in its present form).. quote: "the proposed new religious discrimination act is intended to prevent a person from being discriminated against on the basis of their religion.".

fair enough, but to get it through the house of representatives last night, the government accepted some changes.. the first draft (discussed last night) had a clause that may have impacted the rights of some gay and/or trans-sexual students at religious schools by allowing a religious school to expel such a student.

last night the government was forced to accept changes that removed that possibility.

fulltimestudent

This is an interesting and intriguing new Law (or, it will be if enacted in its present form).

Quote: "The proposed new Religious Discrimination Act is intended to prevent a person from being discriminated against on the basis of their religion."

Well. fair enough, but to get it through the House of Representatives last night, the government accepted some changes.

The first draft (discussed last night) had a clause that may have impacted the rights of some gay and/or trans-sexual students at religious schools by allowing a religious school to expel such a student

Last night the government was forced to accept changes that removed that possibility. (actually while that's how some news sources announced the changes, it is not quite clear that that was the case - the Bill now goes to the Senate, where more legal argument are certain.

But, my mind jumped to the future. Suppose this law actually does prevent gay/trans-sexual staff and students being expelled from a school, how long do you think it may be before some strong-minded young gay/trans-sexual raised as JW and disfellowshiped for being gay or trans-sexual, decides to challenge the JWs right to disfellowship on those ground? The Act is not covering that situation (as far as I know) but as a general principle it may set a precedent, and one way to find that out is to get a smart lawyer to help test it in a series of courts up to the High Court of Australia.

Should be interesting. And there will not be too many Australians interested in defending the JWs right to disfellowship on those grounds.

My quote was from an article this morning on the ABC web-site. The ABC is an Aust. government owned media/news service. And while government owned it is not government controlled.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-09/liberal-ministers-discrimination-transgender-exclusion-problem/100815346

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