WHO ARE THE 144,000? A critical examination of the teaching of the 144,000 from the perspective of an ex jx considering context and other references .This is from a series of videos called NEW LIGHT where I scrutinise all the major teachings of the Watchtower.
Who are the 144,000? Considering the immediate context of Revelation chapter 7
by raymond frantz 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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raymond frantz
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Fisherman
I think WT interpretation that there are 2 classes of people, one going to heaven and the other resurrected on earth makes sense. What is the point of God creating people to begin with, did he just give up that plan? Obviously, Jesus’s apostles go to heaven; who else in fact goes to heaven, we will find out when the time comes.
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waton
Rev 7 has the 144 000 come out of the 12 tribes of israel. jesus said prior to that, the apostles would rule over the 12 tribes. therefore, wt has it, that the 12 tribes are those with an earthly hope. In another interpretation the 12 tribes must be the "Israel of God" that according to wt are the anointed only. so, do the 144 000 come out of the earthly class? possibly , the apostles did. but are the 144 000 sealed out of the rest of the israel of god? or the OS, or both?
they follow jesus "wherever he goes", are probably the deserving souls killed with the axe, to rule for a 1000 years. of Rev 20.
They must have christlike self control to be like him, male virgins as per Rev 14.
Not uncommon to have a special groupe, elite, senate if you will, clustered around a government. so
what is this new light? , sorry, can't stand orateurs.
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Fisherman
They must have christlike self control to be like him, male virgins as per Rev 14.
—Or at least they try. Not everyone is capable of achieving exemplary moral excellence. —Is it choice or genetics? Therefore, it is God in his mercy that chooses not based on works or excellence.
Not Job or Daniel or Abraham or Noah or any of the righteous or the ones the promises were given to goes to heaven but those that were born at the right time along with their good desire to seek God.
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waton
the other new light that wt still has to come up with, is joining the frayed ends of their anointed generation prophecy.
The wt anointed being the remnant of the 144 00o sealed ones.
The full bearded army with the golden clubs in the above illustration, are the immortal ones in action. at Armageddon. For that to happen, , the wt partakers have to die, to go to heaven at the latest with the onset of the great tribulation. but
that means they can not be the generation. because:
did not Jesus say. the generation will pass only after all these terrible things will have occurred ? passed?
wt will not get a pass as the true prophet on that one , the overlap will make it even worse. therefore:
new light:
the remnant of the 144 000 are not "the" generation
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BluesBrother
Revelation is a book of signs and symbols. Why select that number to be literal when all around it are considered symbolic?
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waton
BB have a heart, you want all of us to remain virgins? 12^2 k is bad enough.! seriously,
numbers can have symbolic meanings, but 144 000 is one of largest spelled out precisely, more than the 4 corners of the earth, or the 10 kings.
(not advocating for wt, just remarking)
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Vidqun
Raymond, I enjoyed your explanation. Like you, I have done a reconstruction of JW Theology. I agree with you, this passage is literal. The number is also important, because John "saw" the number and "heard" the number (Rev. 7:4; 14:1).
Here's something that you will find interesting. If this is the case and the chapters follow each other in chronological order, then the sealing is to be a future event and the interpretation of JWs is wrong.
"The transition between aforementioned chapters of Revelation [6 & 7] is introduced by the Greek phrase Καὶ μετὰ τοῦτο (Rev. 7:1 Tischendorf’s New Testament, 8th edition; cf. NA28 footnote), “and after this,” “this” referring to the breaking of the sixth seal, specifically the kings of the earth and their followers, finding refuge in their underground shelters (Rev. 6:15-17)."
And as you remarked, the Israel of God must come first. The 144000 is taken out of the Israel of God (Gal. 6:15, 16). That means the Israel of God must come together before the great tribulation, or am I wrong to assume that?
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EdenOne
I disagree with the approach of "letting the bible interpret itself". It has proven over and over to lead to pitfalls. The very protestant tenet "sola scriptura" didn't result in a unified interpretation, but rather, in thousands of different interpretations, all claiming to be "bible-based". Your best approach is to let the author of a particular text (book) interpret itself. And then consider where is he coming from, what are his influences (in many cases, these influences are to be found outside of canonical scriptures), and of course, what was the motivation of the writer, his political and religious agenda, and to what audience he was writing for.
To simply start off by assuming that the writing hands who wrote the texts that comprise the [protestant] Bible were in harmony with each other is to ignore solid textual criticism evidence and start building over a basic mistake.
Want a simple example? The writer of the gospel of Matthew misreading the Septuagint translation of Isaiah 7:14 to conclude (wrong) that Jesus surely must have fulfilled some prophecy of being miraculously born off a virgin, wholly ignoring the historical context of the episode; and hence how the story of a virginal birth was concocted and gained traction. (The author of Mark, the oldest gospel, knows nothing about a virginal birth story or any other fanciful Jesus infancy stories, btw ...)
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peacefulpete
The 144,000 and the Great Crowd of Revelation
Strongly encourage everyone to read the above thread. It compares the contemporaneous use of this language and imagery as found in Jewish apocalyptic literature. Nothing is more relevant to understanding what a writer means by certain expressions and motifs than learning how others were using them at the same time.
In light of the above, the references to the 144,000 in Revelation are almost certainly connected to the apocalyptic expectation of the reconstitution of the twelve tribes of Israel, occurring alongside a gathering of a multitude of Gentiles for either battle (viz. 4 Ezra, 1QM) or salvation (viz. Testament of Benjamin, Testament of Asher, Justin Martyr). However it would be a mistake to simply conclude from the foregoing that the 144,000 in Revelation represents fleshly Israel, or a portion of fleshly Israel. If Revelation draws on a pre-Christian Jewish apocalyptic source (as a number of scholars believe), then it is certainly plausible that in an earlier edition or source the 144,000 originally referred literally to Israelites. But the author or redactor of Revelation may well have adapted these symbols and motifs to a new conceptual setting and intended the 144,000 to represent the Christian community or a portion thereof.