Posts by fulltimestudent

31

G'day from Oz - My Story

by Gemmel in

hi, i've been lurking for a few days reading the site, interesting stuff ;).

i've been out of the org for 23 years, i was 27 i left an agnostic and became an atheist many years ago.

i knew i was going to leave for 7 years before i did but had stayed in because i didn't want to hurt my family, it hadn't occurred to me that they might shun me.

fulltimestudent

Thnx for sharing your story Gemmel, good to see that you faced up to the 'lie' before you left.

These people (Jws), like all christians, live in an imaginary world. In their 'world' they have control and therefore claim the right to punish those who leave. So no-one leaves with dignity, you must leave in a crisis of their manufacture.

Nonetheless, even though it may come at a price (loss of family and fairweather Jw friends) our freedom is worth it. Those who stay are the real losers.

I'm also from Sydney - do not say much else about myself as I have some family contact (those who are still in) that could easily be broken by the crazies who froth at the mouth if there is any sign of contact. One thing though - like a few others, I study at a University, where you soon learn that the whole Christian thingie is built on myth and fable.

37

Australian Convention Pioneer family Experience - We found our vegetables in the gutter..why do they wanna be Martyrs?

by Witness 007 in

a couple years ago district convention - a pioneer family with two kids explained how they had ran out of funds and had no dinner...as they turned the corner out witnessing they saw a vegetable truck had spilled some produce in the gutter and so "jehovah provided in our time of need..." i felt like yelling get a job you bum stop starving!!

not encouraging.

this week an elder with pnemonia discharges himself from hospital, promising to remain home...so he can go out preaching!

fulltimestudent

Why do they want to be martyrs?
Why? because that's the Christian tradition - its part and parcel of the Christian story, likely inherited from the Maccabees. Robin lane Fox in his great review of early Christian history (Pagans and Christians in the Mediterranean World) devotes a whole chapter to persecution and martyrdom. The concept, he notes, is informed by Jewish literature glorifying the political revolt of the Maccabeans against the Hellenistic Seluicid Empire that then ruled Syria (including Palestine).
After the Maccabees settled down to political independence they introduced some new concepts to Jewish religious thought, their war heroes were presented as martyrs, rewarded for their sacrifice by a place before the throne of God. Daniel was likely the first product of religious propaganda that the Maccabeans used to encourage a willingness to die in battle, (remember those stories of sacrifice?) but the books of Maccabees continued the process. 4 Maccabees (16:25) encapsulates this 'new hope:' " ... Those who die for God, live unto God." This religious propaganda succeeded in giving the 'spear-fodder' of the Jewish revolt a reason to risk death against the might of the Roman army. Three times in the first and second centuries, ordinary Jewish people were called on to risk their lives against the Romans for political objectives. The number of Jewish 'martyrs,' if that is the right word to use when ordinary people were so cynically manipulated by their rulers for political reasons, far outnumbered the later Christian martyrs, who again were often the poorer uneducated ones of the Christian Church, while the more educated Bishops found reasons in the scriptures to discreetly disappear until it was safe to show their faces again.
That's the background to the Christian concept of martyrdom, which is not a popular concept among today's differing Christianities, except among a few 'crazies' like the JWs.
But it can be expressed another way, that is as part of a life of sacrifice. Of course, some witnesses have faced literal death at the hands of some regimes, and such relatively few deaths have been used to the full within the JW organisation, just as they were in the early Church. The thought also informs the witness willingness to die rather than have a (possibly) life-saving transfusion, but as Hebrews 11:36-38, it as more often expressed through a life of sacrifice, " ... while they were in want ..." as the author of Hebrews words it.
By this sacrifice, they believe that they earn a 'greater place' before the throne of God. If you believe it, that's what you do. But once you start analysing that period of history when Christianity had its start, and the great intellectual, social and religio-political ferment that commenced with Macedonian (under Alexander) conquest of the Iranian Empire, and your eyes are opened, then one really questions WHY? That is, what point (why do it?) is there in going hungry, living in poverty etc?

15

So what happens when you don't vote in Australia?

by icer101 in

jw
friends

this is my first post, and to be honest, the main reason why i signed up here was to ask this very question:.

"what happens when a jehova's witness doesn't vote in australia?

do they get fined?

fulltimestudent

OK, as i read you query, you are not a J.Witness, and you do not have a conscientious reason against voting. But you do not see that the system is worth your vote.

The law is specific - voting is compulsory. But since it is a secret ballot, then all you have to do is to attend the voting centre, and vote informally. You can do this by putting a couple of lines through both voting papers and/or writing a succinct message, such as, 'screw all f**king politicians' or similar.

If you wish to do more, then wait for the 'please explain' and on that state why you do not vote and take your chances on a fine. If you are fined, you can obtain some publicity for your cause by refusing to pay the fine and perhaps going to jail.

I sympathise with your feelings, if Tony Abbot and Julia Gillard are the finest politicians that our system can produce then screw the system.

I upset one of my lecturers, who is a true blue believer in Aussie democracy, by pointing out how useless our system is and telling him that since the Chinese Communist Party University (that trains Chinese politicians and leaders) now has a link to the Australian National University in Canberra, that we ought to pay the Chinese Communist Party to train our politicians in the art of getting things done. (As they seem to be doing rather well at getting things done.)

16

Samson the Unvulnerable?

by VM44 in

judges 15:15.

"then he found the jawbone of a recently killed donkey.

he picked it up and killed 1,000 philistines with it.".

fulltimestudent

What else did Samson do, beside killing people? That's not really a fair comment VM44, - grin. The Bible is quite clear that that he could do other things.

Judges 16:22 shows he could grow a good head of hair ( it grew 'luxuriantly' as Freddy would have it) totally stuffing up the claim of the author of 1 Corinthians 11:14 that long hair disgraced a man, and that the only custom for congregations of god was short hair for men.

But, Samson was also (despite his claim to fame as a murderer) a believer in the slogan, 'make love, not war.' Samson spent an inordinate amount of time rooting women. In fact, you'd have to say that he was one of those men who could not keep his fly zipped. (OK, I know its an anachronism, but I do not know the street expression for that period).

We know from the biblical record that Samson became obsessed with a (presumably) beautiful Philistine girl (Ju 14: 1) and even though she was eventually given to another man as wife, Samson was still obsessed and trying to get into her panties anyway (or, whatever girls wore then). (15:1).

And then we find him walking down a street in Gaza and looking at the prostitutes advertising their wares, and engaging the services of one of these girls. (16:1)

And after that, there is the more famous interlude with Delilah. (16:4) Interestingly, that verse says he fell in love with Delilah and the Septuagint translators decided to use a form of the word agape, to describe his 'love'.

So, I guess we can also describe Samson as obsessed with sex.

26

Do the Dead Sea Scrolls...

by tenyearsafter in

fulltimestudent

I join with the others, Leolaia, (in pleading tones) asking that you share your unfinished/finished comments on Daniel. I think it is the most interesting book in the whole Bible canon, if for no other reason that it once played such a major role in our lives as we constantly watched, what we imagined to be part of the sign of the end, as the WT interpretations of the K of the N versus the K of the S struggle played out daily in our newspapers. I see the role of this book as being far greater in influence on Christian end-times themes, than even the classic matt 24/luke 21 texts. It likely plays a role still in International affairs as Christian influenced western politicians and military leaders imagine that they are acting as God's agents in bringing Armageddon.

But for myself, I am now left, after a far too short an analysis of Daniel in a course on the Macedonian empire(s) with the thought that it was all Macabbean religio/political propaganda.

So yes please - do reconsider

40

'Tis the Season: Christmas and "Pagan Origins"

by cabasilas in

some thoughts on the so-called "pagan origins" of christmas:.

christmas and "pagan origins".

.

fulltimestudent

Quoting Cabasilas (a post on 04.12.20100

I agree that there are other Christian groups that are against Christmas. I would argue, however, that such opposition to celebrating Christmas is not the historical Christian position but surfaces about 500 years ago and are based on a faulty reasoning: that a history showing some sort of use of a custom by non-Christians means it's somehow tainted.

Yes! Some Christians get upset at some aspects of chrissie celebrations. Here's a link to a somewhat humourous incident in France:

http://varenne.tc.columbia.edu/texts/levstcld093fathchri.pdf

which relates how in 1951, a number of clergy (presumably mainly Catholic, but including Protestants)in Dijon, France, had become agitated over what they called an increasing 'paganisation' of Christmas, particularly centering on Father Christmas. To symbolise their opposition they arranged on Christmas Eve, for a large group of Sunday School kids to witness the execution by hanging of Father Christmas.

The local government authorities, described as "anti-clerical," and quite possibly communist in those days, promptly arranged for the resurrection of Father Christmas the next evening.

I did find interesting the second article for which you provided a link (in fact, I found quite a few articles in his collection to be of interest to me). I won't go into those at present.

But I would like to draw your attention to this Chrissie article in the current issue of Biblical Archeology Review ( http://www.bib-arch.org/ )

Its written by a University of Melbourne academic who specialises in early Christianity. The article is named, 'How December 25 Became Christmas.'

He suggests it was a gradual process by which the early church turned to an interest in clebrating the nativity.

( See: http://www.bib-arch/e-features/christmas.asp )

That idea of the development of Christian beliefs being gradual basically fits my notions of early Christianity. From the first group(s) who seem to have been nearly all Jews or gentiles influenced by Jews, there was a 'flowering' of new ideas that gradually moved early Christianity away from Judaism. And since, for various reasons, Jews lived in many places in both the Roman Empire and the Iranian Empire, and since they mostly made a living from trading, they became great travellers (I've even found one group of jews from what is now France, who specialised in trading eunuchs-not clear at present whether they also made 'eunuchs. If they did, it would be interesting to know how they squared that with their beliefs in the Mosaic law, and whether they removed the testicles only, or all the sex organs as was sometimes the practise.) Anyway, that network of Jewish colonies, and the travelling seems to have made it possible for early Christian missionaries (dare I say pioneers?) to spread their religion quite fast. We even find evidence of Jews down in India, so there was at least a framework for Thomas to follow, if the legends of his founding the Indian church have any truthful basis.

I think we can see, that actually early Christianity spread faster in the east than in the west, and that there may have been more Christians in Egypt and what is now called Iraq and Iran, than in the west (Europe). An interesting angle is that for quite a while, the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) mostly 'ruled' over churches that were Arian in their theology.

Anyway, thank you for a brief but interesting thread.

40

'Tis the Season: Christmas and "Pagan Origins"

by cabasilas in

some thoughts on the so-called "pagan origins" of christmas:.

christmas and "pagan origins".

.

fulltimestudent

I do not have a problem with 'pagan' customs or thoughts and I do share (these days) in chrissie celebrations, however I thought that the reasoning in the article the cabasilas drew our attention to is somewhat shallow. But then I am a Post-christian, that is, I have experienced Christianity (or, the JW version of it) and have now moved forward (or up).

For an anti-christmas argument by a person who appears to be a conventional 'Christian' you could look at John Beardsley's, Biblical Discernments Ministries site, in which he strongly argues against the concept of Christmas*. I think the WTS writing desk would be proud of John's turn of phrase, as he concludes, "Let us put away all of the mixture of Pagan customs and take up His mantle and His pure worship, and show the confused world that there is a difference." Jeez- I could've said that myself once.

And it's not that hard to find other conventionally Christian sites who also do not appear to like 'christmas'.

* Should a Christian Celebrate Christmas? www.rapidnet.com/jbeard/bdm/psychology/xmas/celeb.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As to the word pagan, our modern usage seems dependent on early Christianity coining the word to use in propaganda battles against the established religion of the time. Something perhaps, similar to the propaganda battles fought by the Watchtower. As I understand the usage, the word pagani first appeared in this sense in early fourth century Christian inscriptions, a colloquial word, Christian slang to describe non-Christians.

Paradoxically, early Christianity was adapting 'pagan' thinking all the time, and much of what modern evangelical Christians think of as 'pure' Christianity has been derived and adapted from pagan sources.

So go ahead and enjoy your Chrissie decorations and celebrations, but go a bit easy on the Chrissie piss-ups, they're bad for your liver. hoho, and also go easy on the overspending, that's bad for your bank-balance and mortgage - another hoho,

3

Passing of witnesses I knew...

by Snoozy in

i was on facebook doing some reading in my inbox and found a comment from someone in the area i grew up in on a facebook site i belong to.. the facebook site is one that is pertaining to the area i grew up in.turns out he is a relative of two witnesses i went to the hall with.

they were my hubby's age and the husband and my hubby were friends when they were teens.. they were what i call mean witnesses..never smiled and had a daughter that used to bite all the other little babies and kids in the hall....i don't mean they were bad people just stern.

they were good at heart but just didn't seem happy.. well he told me his uncle (the jw) had passed away a few years ago and his wife (jw) shortly after..they would have been in their early 60's.. i just texted him and asked him if they were still witnesses .

fulltimestudent

Sad, isn't it? A life time of "hope deferred".

42

Why did the WTBS endorse 1975?

by jay88 in

is it not true that the leaders knew that it was a blatant lie when the 1975 teaching was propagated in the 60's?.

fulltimestudent

I'd agree with Ding's assessment.

My view is that the whole thing was driven by Freddy's expectation of the end. But Knorr has to accept some responsibity also. During Rutherford's approximately 20 year rule, Freddy had been a research assistant and ghost writer. After Rutherford's death, Knorr took on the role of the practical organiser, and allowed Freddy to take on a more or less official role of "Bible Scholar" and that's how he was viewed within the organisation. At assemblies, the audience hung on Freddy's words. There does not seem to have been any practical method of 'review' of what Freddy said. So the general expectation within the organisation of an approaching "end" allied with Freddy's uncritical acceptance of both Daniel and revelation as genuine prophetic documents meant that the wording of certain key paragraphs within "Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God, " does not seem to have received the questioning that it should have recieved. And, the book did touch a nerve within the membership. I recall my own feelings of appreciation and reinforcement of my own hopes, when it was released. I did (and not in hindsight) have some qualifications about the way Freddy argued his way to the date, but in general accepted it.

I do not think that it was a 'blatant lie' as Jay88 suggests. Assuming, for a moment, that the WTBTS, was a group of men concerned only with making money, so that they would tell a 'blatant lie' like this, just how would they be advantaged? Any group of real 'con-men' would know that there would be a day of reckoning.

More, I was present at a meeting of Sydney elders at the Greenacre Assembly Hall in about September (from memory) in 1975, when Nathan and Freddy came to Australia to 'explain themselves'. By that time the troops were starting to wonder what was happening about 1975, it was becoming clear to many in the organisation that all the things that were supposed to happen before Armageddon, had not happened and there were no signs that they were going to happen.

In his talk, Nathan discussed those points and admitted that it did not seem likely that were going to happen any time soon. What else could he say? But to me the most telling thing was the 'tension' between the two men, in spite of the 'nice' words, the body language conveyed a feeling of tension between them. (Of course, Nathan was recovering from a cancer operation)

So it's not 'blatant lies', but disappointed (again) hopes that affected the organisation. I have no doubts that the WTBTS genuinely believed that Armageddon was coming and Freddy's chronological arguments convinced them that around 1975 could be it. Many of us knew that it was approximate, the Biblical dating is too loose to set a precise date, even if all the proof texts were true prophesies from some all-powerful God.

The following year, they sent out Doug Held, a former branch servant, to rally the troops - but Doug set me on the road to freedom, by telling me, "well, it may be 20 years away." Which timing could be consistent with what Freddy had said in the Life Everlasting book, because it all hinged on how long Adam was alone in the garden before Eve's making and their supposed rebellion. That time period may have been one year or it may have been a hundred years. As I realised that, I saw I had to work these things out for myself, and that's why I am a post-christian.

The other truth is that the WTBTS were and are, just another group of disappointed Christians who have built their hopes on so-called 'promises' of the Bible. And that dear friends, is a process that has been happening among claimed "Christians" from the start. The early church vacillated between expectation and disappointed hopes. Today's Christians do the same.

237

Loftus: Are We Angry Atheists?

by leavingwt in

jw
friends

john w. loftus responds to the "angry atheist" assertion.

are we angry atheists?.

.. if we are angry, christians will see this as a sign we are god haters.

fulltimestudent

Thank you Burntheships, for clarifying your position regarding christianity in china.
As regards Korea, I will agree with your comments that on the surface it may seem that Koreans are not so Confucianist-Daoist inculcated as others in East Asia. The precise number of professing Christian church members in South Korea is not easy to estimate, and they do include large numbers of Catholic North Koreans who fled North Korea decades ago. Additionally, its hard to differentiate between conventional (western style) Christians and native cults that are similar to the Chinese Taiping who nearly overthrew the Imperial Qing dynasty. If you see the Taiping as true Christians then you will likely see groups like the Tonghak (whose Red neon crosses light up the night in South Korea***). these 'homegrown' cults are also strongly influenced by Confucianism and Daoism, and advocate 'eastern learning' as opposed to 'western learning' in "conventional" Christian churches. I would suggest to you that even in conventional christian churches the basic influence is more Confucian-Daoist than "Jesus". This is not to challenge you, but to try to understand what is really happening. As far as I can see, the growth of conventional christian churches is slowing markedly.
And way off the topic, but this is interesting. It will be very interesting to see what happens if and when, there is re-unification between north and south. I've been asking (south) Korean students, if they think that South Koreans would be willing to forgo their living standards to re-unify? The implication is that huge sums of money will be required to do that. They usually answer No!. I then ask if the Japanese should do it? But that is politically too sensitive for them to say yes! So what about China? They usually nod their heads then, and say Yes! And its not so silly, as in China's Jilin province adjacent to North Korea, there are millions of native Koreans who are Chinese citizens. Culturally,the North Koreans are likely closer to China than to the south.
*** I noticed on a recent trip from Shanghai to Fuzhou (in China), that when our train passed ( at 250-300 km per hour) through Wenzhou area, that there were many churches with these red crosses there also, so far I have not had time to identify if the red crosses identified the same or similar groups.