Posts by fulltimestudent

43

Atheism

by Jonathan Drake in

jw
friends

recent events and book reads (one suggested by cofty i believe- thank you) have lead me to the only logical and acceptable conclusion:.

there is no god.. simple logical reasoning: matter can neither me created or destroyed.

so the amount of mass in the universe is constant.

Thoughtful people have left records of similar journeys. Somewhere in my messy hard disc (or, was it the last one ?-grin) I have some information on Indian thinkers arriving at this same conclusion. I cant find that talk about it, but I can expound on a Chinese thinker's journey (a little further on in this post).

During our long intellectual imprisonment within the grim gray walls of the giant watchtower, there were clearly defined limits to out thinking capacity, but paradoxically it was a certain Watchtower issue that led me to eventual freedom. That long forgotten issue discussed the hebrew word mezimbah, which the WT translated as 'thinking ability'. I came to prize that ability - a very dangerous thing in a totalitarian organisation, though I suggest that in practise, the WTS was not quite as totalitarian as we may think. Private thoughts were one thing, it seems, but what they feared was public discussion and probable ensuing dissension.

So anyway, I also escaped.

But back to my Chinese friends. In the first century CE, Wang Chong, for example, resisted orthodoxy and the sanctification of texts. He advocated developing a strong sense of scepticism, and maybe helped (along with others) free Chinese minds from dogma and tradition. Yang Zhu asked, "what is life for?" And, thought only two things were worth seeking - music and sex! And, since both good and bad men all die, he wrote, " Let us hasten to enjoy our present life. Why bother about what comes after death?"

And, by the fourth century CE, while western thinking was wrapping itself in theocracy, Guo Xiang realised, " ... everything creates itself without the direction of any creator."

Of course, there were other schools of thought in East Asian thinking, and some tendencies were toward mental enslavement, but the great tradition from the time of Kongzi and Mencius was toward scepticism.

As a student of China, it's quite fascinating to see how Chinese political affairs are organised pragmatically, whereas western political thinking is organised on dogma.

23

"Moses, by far the meekest and most humble person" ??

by stuckinarut2 in

seriously, how can it be ok for someone to say of themselves that they are "by far the meekest and most humble person" on the earth?.

numbers 12:3 'now the man moses was by far the meekest of all the men on the face of the earth'.

yes, moses was so humble that he told everyone about it!!?!.

fulltimestudent

There is another connection between the early Israelites and their political overlords, the Egyptian Empire. This connection is still a popular pastime, particularly in Australia, where even the bethel brothers indulge with great pleasure.

This pastime is imbibing a popular beverage known as "beer." We mostly associate drinking wine with the Bible, but the evidence is that in ancient Egypt beer was a common drink and most Egyptians drank it daily, and the early Israelites, whether they learned it from the Egyptians or not, the Israelites also liked a beer or two every day. In fact, Numbers 28: 7-10 commands that Yahweh had to be served his portion of beer (roughly equivalent to a modern six pack) each day. Which means that Yahweh would be able to drink me under the table.

Here's a short overview from the Biblical Archeological Society:

Reference: http://members.bib-arch.org/publication.asp?Volume=36&ArticleID=4&Issue=5

Did the Ancient Israelites Drink Beer?
By Michael M. Homan

Ancient Israelites, with the possible exception of a few teetotaling Nazirites and their moms, proudly drank beer—and lots of it. Men, women and even children of all social classes drank it. Its consumption in ancient Israel was encouraged, sanctioned and intimately linked with their religion. Even Yahweh, according to the Hebrew Bible, consumed at least half a hin of beer (approximately 2 liters, or a six-pack) per day through the cultic ritual of libation, and he drank even more on the Sabbath (Numbers 28:7–10). People who were sad were advised to drink beer to temporarily erase their troubles (Proverbs 31:6). Yet the Biblical authors also called for moderation. Several passages condemn those who consumed too much beer (Isaiah 5:11, 28:7; Proverbs 20:1, 31:4). The absence of beer defines a melancholy situation, according to Isaiah 24:9.

( I liked that reference to Isaiah 24:9, it's like a popular Aussie drinking song that's called, "The Pub with No Beer.")

"Moses, by far the meekest and most humble person" ??

by stuckinarut2 in

seriously, how can it be ok for someone to say of themselves that they are "by far the meekest and most humble person" on the earth?.

numbers 12:3 'now the man moses was by far the meekest of all the men on the face of the earth'.

yes, moses was so humble that he told everyone about it!!?!.

fulltimestudent

It must be clear to any thinking person (i.e. a person not blinded by faith) that the Exodus story is an origin myth, that is, the sort of heroic story that is told to explain the how a certain human society got its start. You can read about origin myths (sometimes also called foundation myths) in this Wikipedia entry - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_myth

In any of these mythical stories, there will be some elements of historical truth. Can we find anything truthful in the Exodus/Moses story. Yes, we can. It is simply that there is/was a connection between the ancient Egyptian Empire, a human society that was so well organised, that they were able to build the huge monuments of ancient Egypt.

In contrast, the group of people that later became the Israelites and later still the Jews, were a barely organised group living in Palestine. Did some of them really travel to Egypt as described in the biblical myth? Actually, they did not have to, as the Egyptian empire came to them, by conquering Palestine.

Here's a map of the Egyptian empire around the mid fifteenth century BCE.

File:Egypt NK edit.svg

Reference: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Egypt_NK_edit.svg

Jerusalem was not in existence at that time, but the Egyptian influence extended from the coast to the areas which later became the focus of Israelite mythology.

Now think of this description of Moses in Acts 7:20-22 NIV.

20 “At that time Moses was born, and he was no ordinary child.[a] For three months he was cared for by his family. 21 When he was placed outside, Pharaoh’s daughter took him and brought him up as her own son. 22 Moses was educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians and was powerful in speech and action.
Footnote: Acts 7:20 Or was fair in the sight of God

There is dispute over the time when Moses was born (if, indeed, there is any historical truth behind the story). The Watchtower publication, Aid to Bible Understanding (p.1180) suggest he was born around 1593 BCE. That date is suggested by the early Christian writer, Jerome. Bishop Ussher (he of the 6000 years idea), calculated 1571 BCE. But the Rabbinical Jewish scholars (subsequent to the destruction of the temple in 70CE) calculated that he lived between 1391 and 1271BCE.

The date calculated by the Rabbinical scholars is interesting. Why? Because that would locate the Exodus events as being around the time of the huge religious crisis in Egypt caused by the monotheistical ideas of the Pharoah who changed his name to Akhenaten ( who died around 1336-1334 BCE). Here he is as represented in a plaque from that era, worshipping Aten.

Reference: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Aten_disk.jpg

and, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten

Does this explain Moses, educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians,

denouncing the Bull worshipping Israelites? So difficult to prove but a possibility.

Egyptologists also point out the similarity between Egyptian concepts of creation and Genesis ch 1.

So Moses, meek or not meek, as the case may be, real or mythical serves to link teh Canaanite tribes who led a war that eventually gave them primacy in Canaan and led to the need for foundational myths, which, of course, when early Christianity was just another Jewish sect became embedded in a religion that became the main myth bearer of powerful European colonisers.

6

Lee Kuan Yew, the founder of independent Singapore died this morning, aged 91.

by fulltimestudent in

overview of his life, from china central tv america:.

http://www.cctv-america.com/2015/03/22/singapores-founding-pm-lee-kuan-yew-dies-at-91.

fulltimestudent

Some more thoughts on Lee Kuan Yew.

1. Toughness.

Talking about himself, he once said in 1994:

"Nobody doubts that if you take me on, I will put on knuckle-dusters and catch you in a cul-de-sac," he said. "If you think you can hurt me more than I can hurt you, try."

A friend of mine (an Australian) was once elected by his university compatriots to negotiate with the SG government for a wage rise (they did not get it). In the end he had to meet with LKY personally and described it as the scariest experience of his life:

A quote from a CBC NEWS Analysis: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/visionary-perhaps-but-singapore-s-lee-kuan-yew-was-not-democracy-s-friend-1.3008047

In Singapore, Lee locked up opponents without trial, and used the courts to bankrupt critics and defamation suits to bully the international press into silence.

In 1994, the New York Times issued a grovelling apology to avoid colossal damages after suggesting that the Lee family was one of Asia's political dynasties.

Lee had insisted that his son became prime minister, which he is still, and his daughter-in-law head of Singapore's sovereign wealth fund not through nepotism, but because they just happened to be the best candidates.

Publications that do not have local offices to sue have been braver, describing Singapore as "Disneyland with the death penalty" and "Pyongyang with broadband."

But the final result can only be described as good. Singapore is prosperous, with GDP per capita in the top 5 in the world, and a well-educated citizenry. There are two universities in the top 50 list, and Singapore is considered a leader in innovation.

The Brits left colonial Singapore in a poverty-stricken condition. Lee has left it prosperous.

The social engineering programs of his government has been derided by the west, but has produced an ethnically diverse population that is however, homogenous and law-abiding, as Bungi Bill has pointed out. The streets of Australian cities are not particularly safe for a woman to walk in at night, but the streets of Singapore are safe for women to be out alone.

Lee was also pragmatic.

As Deng said, "A cat's color is unimportant, what you want a cat to do is to catch mice." (i.e get results). Both Singapore and China, are run on that operating principle.

He was an anti-communist, but the structures of his People's Action Party ( as well as the Communist Party of China which is almost identical) are both based on Lenin's Vanguard Party as vehicles to gain power, stay in power and decide everything*.

He could be biting in assessment, once informing Australians that they risked becoming, "The poor white trash of Asia."

*that needs some explaining for the western mind, when decisions are to be made, the party apparatus calls in people with experience and who advocate different views to discuss the options, they then attempt to make the best possible decision. Does that consensus model work better than the western adversarial system (government versus opposition). Keep watching the rise of mChina to find out.

25

Removal of Tetragrammaton from Early Greek Manuscripts

by jhine in

a while ago i posted on another thread that i had been told by some witnesses that the tetragrammaton had been in the original christian greek scriptures but had been removed when apostacy came into the church .

i did not know where this came from at the time .however while looking something else up i came across this .as i could not find the original thread i have started a new one .here is a quote from nwt reference edition 1984 :-.

" matthew made more than a hundred quotations from the inspired hebrew scriptures.

fulltimestudent

Another side issue: quoting from jhine post:

but had been removed when apostacy came into the church.

The idea that there was an "original" truth, that became perverted as the early church became apostate is not supported by the evidence.

What we can find is a wide variety of ideas and concepts that are gradually consolidated into a standardised belief system. A quite different process to the witness (and others) concept of a great apostacy.

9

The Gayby Project

by fulltimestudent in

this is about a situation likely affecting thousands.. posted without comment (for a change - but mainly because i'm not quite sure what to say).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spo0mkq3vhc.

fulltimestudent

Vidiot: It takes a village to raise a child.

Great point! In a village situation, even if the kid's natural parents stuff up, or are deadbeats, then there are people around, including relatives that may be able to assist.

Anthropologists point to the social system operating in traditional Samoa as an example of that group assistance.

9

The Gayby Project

by fulltimestudent in

this is about a situation likely affecting thousands.. posted without comment (for a change - but mainly because i'm not quite sure what to say).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spo0mkq3vhc.

fulltimestudent

If anyone feels hostile to the concept, consider what two men may have to go through to adopt two kids and contrast their experience with yours (if you are a parent).

I admit to not quite munderstanding the motivation of two guys making that decision, but I don't think that I had strong desires to be a parent, or was I just brainwashed by the Yahweh/Jesus propaganda machine?* Dont know!

I talked to my GAYXJW friend, and of course, being more or less the same generation as me, he doesn't want kids, but then he's had some when younger. His younger male partner claims to have no interest in parenting either.

Which creates a conundrum for me when one of my friends, friends (ex-PRC) and his male partner go and adopt two Thai kids. They had all sorts of red-tape to go through and the emotional roller-coaster of deasling with two multiple bureaucracies and a long hiatus when someone else's stupidity ( a str8 couple, actually) caused a hold on proceedings.

Anyway, here's the result: Do you think they were worth waiting for ? They do!

And, yeah! I remember days like that too (smile)

Just thought I'd share someone else's joy.

*remember! - Armageddon will soon be here, pioneer and save lives - they'll be your spiritual children - think of having children to care for during the great tribulation - be like the Apostle Paul-uuugh! - But, as a corollary, I think of all the poor frustrated sisters, whose husbands wouldn't agree to their having children, merely so they could stay (take your choice- pioneering, on the circuit, in bethel etc)

13

Yahweh and Jesus Lose the Quickbuild Crown

by fulltimestudent in

quickbuild's are something the jws crow about a lot as evidence of yahweh's "spirit" working on them, but amongst the puffery' there was a solid fact that the buildings were often the result of good planning rather than divine assistance.. and, in most cases the buildings were seldom built in a weekend.

a concrete slab foundation needed time to dry out before walls could be built.

and before the slab could be poured, the ground had to be levelled and services like plumbing and drainage roughed in.

fulltimestudent

and one more, this one stated to be 2000km from the factory. Wouldn't that be a logistics nightmare, I don't know how the components were transported, but when I worked, even Brissie to Sydney could give me sleepless nights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BfA67dsPZw

13

Yahweh and Jesus Lose the Quickbuild Crown

by fulltimestudent in

quickbuild's are something the jws crow about a lot as evidence of yahweh's "spirit" working on them, but amongst the puffery' there was a solid fact that the buildings were often the result of good planning rather than divine assistance.. and, in most cases the buildings were seldom built in a weekend.

a concrete slab foundation needed time to dry out before walls could be built.

and before the slab could be poured, the ground had to be levelled and services like plumbing and drainage roughed in.

fulltimestudent

And another example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps0DSihggio

13

Yahweh and Jesus Lose the Quickbuild Crown

by fulltimestudent in

quickbuild's are something the jws crow about a lot as evidence of yahweh's "spirit" working on them, but amongst the puffery' there was a solid fact that the buildings were often the result of good planning rather than divine assistance.. and, in most cases the buildings were seldom built in a weekend.

a concrete slab foundation needed time to dry out before walls could be built.

and before the slab could be poured, the ground had to be levelled and services like plumbing and drainage roughed in.

fulltimestudent

Quickbuild's are something the JWs crow about a lot as evidence of Yahweh's "spirit" working on them, But amongst the puffery' there was a solid fact that the buildings were often the result of good planning rather than divine assistance.

And, in most cases the buildings were seldom built in a weekend. They couldn't be! A concrete slab foundation needed time to dry out before walls could be built. And before the slab could be poured, the ground had to be levelled and services like plumbing and drainage roughed in. And double brick walls could not be built to full height in one day, and even gyprock plasterboard could not be installed and painted all on the last day.

So a lot of puffery, but yes! taking a step back, the witnesses usually managed the process quite well.

So I don't know what God is "blessing" this building:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veNf-bz99cI

But, I hear if Yahweh and Jesus want to know how to improve, Buddha and Kongzi (Confucius) are willing to teach them.

P.S. It's also NOT true to say the building was "built" in 19 days. All buildings need planning and "management" AND in the Chinese example, so much construction activity was performed off-site in the factory, so the pre-built segments were just fitted into place and secured.

Still it's impressive.