fulltimestudent

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Posts by fulltimestudent

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  13

  Organization, not a concept established by God

  by StarTrekAngel in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was dwelling over a discussion going on at jw-archive.

  the old topic of the legitimacy of the gb and the concept of centralized organization.

  despite what the wt claims, there are a number of examples in the new testament of actions and decisions taken without direction or even the awareness of the elders in jerusalem.. despite whatever other evidence jw may have about the organizational tendencies of god (namely the creation, universe, whatever else they usually bring up), the concept of an organized nation never originated from god.

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  fulltimestudent

  Beth Sarim : There's nothing in the Bible about Organized Religion.

  Are you sure?

  What name would you give to the highly organised arrangements for worship in the first and second temples described in different parts of the Bible? Surely that was highly organised worship.

  Actually, most early religion revolved around worship in a temple, with priests and sacrifices. The Jewish way was not unique.

  A philosophical content seems to have arrived at a later stage. Karl Jaspers, a German philosopher, called that stage of human development, 'the Axial Age' locating it between the 8th and 3rd centuries BCE (700s to 200s BCE). In West Asia, the Greek Pre-socratic philosphers, in Central Asia, Zoroastrian thought, In India early 'Hindu' thought and Buddhism, and in East Asia (China) Confucianism, Moism (Universal Love) and Daoism were all part of the era.

  
  

  The changes in thinking led to the inclusion of 'thought systems' into religion.

  What I've written is a very simplistic description of tremendous changes in the way that humans viewed the world.
  

  
  
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  9

  Jesus 40 day fast, what really happened?

  by Formerbrother in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-study-march-2016/questions-from-readers/.

  did satan physically take jesus to the temple when tempting him?.

  put simply, we cannot be certain whether jesus actually stood in the temple or he did so only by means of a vision.

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  fulltimestudent

  Jesus suffered from delusions.

  As he grew up he gradually came to imagine that he was going to fulfill a special role for the people that he saw as 'God's people.' But to do that he needed to demonstrate his legitimacy. I submit that through his claimed supernatural experiences he could ask his disciples and his audiences to accept the role that he claimed for himself

  Whether he described that 40 days to his disciples or not is unclear. According to Luke's narrative, no one else accompanied him during the claimed 40 day fast. The whole experience may have been in his fevered imagination, that he related at some future point. If not so, then the authors of the gospels made it up for the same reasons.

  It is very difficult for people living now to understand the thought patterns of people living in world of that time. The sociohistorical realities that shape the way that social groups (communities) see the world are often just assumed when people speak or write. If we think in terms or of our own sociohistorical realities then we will often get an entirely wrong impression.
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  2

  The Influence of Hellenism on Early Christianity: Dionysus as a Template for the Jesus Gospels

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the influence of hellenism on early christianity: dionysus as a pattern for the mythical aspects of jesus..

  the palestine in which the young jesus grew up was strongly influenced by hellenic mythology.

  for some 600 years the jews had been subjects of first the persian empire and then the empires of alexander the great, his hellenic successors (the ptolemies and the xxxx), and eventually the romans.

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  fulltimestudent

  Sorry, about the XXXX on the third line. It was meant to remind me to check the spelling of 'Seleucids' who were the other Hellenic empire that ruled Palestine and the Jews in the post-Alexander centuries.

  When I'm writing from memory, I occasionally get a mental question on spelling.

  There was some problem in posting, and I did not get back to the final edit.

  ............................

  • dothemath: Fascinating to see so many similarities. I've read how many think John's gospel was influenced by Greek philosophy ( regarding the "word" ) from the first chapter.

    
    

    There seems little doubt that John's first chapter had a strong dose of Hellenism in it. Of course, another way to see the chapter is that the author was using Hellenistic thought to explain the role of Jesus as he saw it.

    And, yet another perspective, is that the 'culture' of the Palestinian area was part of a more general west Asian culture that had local pockets influenced by their own ethnic cultures.

    
    

    The so-called 'Pre-socratic' philosophers that are generally seen as beginning Greek thought (philosophy) were clustered along the western coast of Asia Minor (now Turkey). On land and the coastal seas there was a lot of traffic from trade between that area and Egypt/North Africa, so its arguable that long before Alexander conquered the Persian Empire, Greek culture was influencing the coastal peoples. Alexander's policy, and that of his successors, of settling retired Greek soldiers (married to local women) into colonies all through these lands, saturated them with Hellenistic thought and concepts.

    
    

    On the topic of logos, you may find this Oregon State U, website informative:

    http://web.engr.oregonstate.edu/~funkk/Personal/logos.html
    

    
    

    
    

    Flag Dislike Like
• 

  Living in India - life as a runaway kid

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  from the hongkong based, south china morning post:.

  http://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/article/1892363/indias-runaways-and-charities-saving-them-abuse?utm_source=edm&utm_medium=edm&utm_content=20151220&utm_campaign=scmp_today#.

  these kids were lucky, a ngo group saw them first.

• 

  fulltimestudent

  From the Hongkong based, South China Morning Post:

  http://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/article/1892363/indias-runaways-and-charities-saving-them-abuse?utm_source=edm&utm_medium=edm&utm_content=20151220&utm_campaign=scmp_today#

  These kids were lucky, a NGO group saw them first. Their stories are in the above overview.

  

  The Indian National Crime Records Bureau states that over 65,000 boys go missing from home every year, only about 40,000 are ever traced. (I think that's conservative, if - as some estimate- over 70% of Indians are still living in poverty, then the likelihood of every missing boy being reported to any authority is small)
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  2

  The Influence of Hellenism on Early Christianity: Dionysus as a Template for the Jesus Gospels

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the influence of hellenism on early christianity: dionysus as a pattern for the mythical aspects of jesus..

  the palestine in which the young jesus grew up was strongly influenced by hellenic mythology.

  for some 600 years the jews had been subjects of first the persian empire and then the empires of alexander the great, his hellenic successors (the ptolemies and the xxxx), and eventually the romans.

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  fulltimestudent

  The Influence of Hellenism on Early Christianity: Dionysus as a Pattern for the Mythical Aspects of Jesus.

  The Palestine in which the young Jesus grew up was strongly influenced by Hellenic Mythology. For some 600 years the Jews had been subjects of first the Persian Empire and then the Empires of Alexander the Great, his Hellenic successors (the Ptolemies and the XXXX), and eventually the Romans. Their god YHWH had not been able to protect them from these powerful empires.

  That Hellenic culture affected Judaism is beyond doubt with most contemporary discussion centring on the extent of that influence. It can be suggested that the influence may be seen in the perspective from which Jewish topics were perceived. Hence in writing about Jesus, the gospel writers may have used patterns pf Greek mythology, to present Jesus in the light cast by the prevailing Hellenistic culture.

  A comparison of Dionysus as represented by Euripides in his drama The Bacchae,(first performed in 405 BCE) and the Jesus presented in the synoptic gospels, shows so many similarities that both accounts could be seen as conforming to an archetypal pattern. Were the gospel authors, consciously or unconsciously using that pattern?

  This list demonstrates the similarities.

  1. Both were sons of a ruling God, who impregnated a human woman to produce a son.

  2. Both Semele (with a royal ancestry) and Mary are presented as virgins.

  3. Both Dionysus and Jesus must survive an attempt to kill them while still babies.

  4. Both are presented as able to perform miracles to inspire faith in their divinity.

  5. Both have to do battle with supernatural forces of evil. Jesus with Satan and Dionysus with the Titans.

  6. Both return to their birthplace or hometown, only to be rejected,

  7. Both share an association with wine. Dionysus invents wine, promotes it as his gift to humanity. Jesus miraculously turns water into wine and later is portrayed as using his blood to save humanity.

  8. Both are wounded and killed by their adversaries. Jesus by the Roman State (implicitly seen as controlled by Satan) and Dionysus by the Titans.

  9. Both are portrayed as descending into the underworld. For the Jesus, account see 1 Peter 3:19 and 4:6.

  10. Both rise from death. Dionysus to divine immortality, joining Zeus, his father on the Greek heaven, Olympus. Jesus to rule from Heaven at his father’s right hand. (Phillipians 2, Acts 7:55-57, Daniel 7.)

  11. Both evangelise the world. Dionysus does establish his universal cult, and Jesus directs his followers to establish his universal cult.

  12. Both threaten (do) to punish opponents who deny their divinity, including parents against children etc.
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  The Influence of Hellenism on Early Christianity: Dionysus as a Pattern for the Mythical Aspects of Jesus.

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the influence of hellenism on early christianity: dionysus as a pattern for the mythical aspects of jesus..

  the palestine in which the young jesus grew up was strongly influenced by hellenic mythology.

  for some 600 years the jews had been subjects of first the persian empire and then the empires of alexander the great, his hellenic successors (the ptolemies and the xxxx) and eventually the romans.

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  fulltimestudent

  The Influence of Hellenism on Early Christianity: Dionysus as a Pattern for the Mythical Aspects of Jesus.

  The Palestine in which the young Jesus grew up was strongly influenced by Hellenic Mythology. For some 600 years the Jews had been subjects of first the Persian Empire and then the Empires of Alexander the Great, his Hellenic successors (the Ptolemies and the XXXX) and eventually the Romans. Their god YHWH had not been able to protect them from these powerful empires.

  That Hellenic culture affected Judaism is beyond doubt, most contemporary discussion centres on the extent of that influence. It can be suggested that the influence may be seen in ways that Jewish topics are perceived. Hence in writing about Jesus, the gospel writers are likely to have used Greek mythology to present Jesus in the light cast by the prevailing Hellenic culture.

  A comparison of Dionysus as represented by Euripides in his drama The Bacchae,(first performed in 405 BCE) and the Jesus presented in the synoptic gospels, shows so many similarities that both accounts could be seen as conforming to an archetypal pattern. Were these authors, consciously or unconsciously using that pattern?

  This list demonstrates the similarities.
  

  1. Both were sons of a ruling God, who impregnated a human woman to produce a son.

  2. Both Semele (with a royal ancestry) and Mary are presented as virgins.

  3. Both Dionysus and Jesus must survive an attempt to kill them while still babies.

  4. Both are presented as able to perform miracles to inspire faith in their divinity.

  5. Both have to do battle with supernatural forces of evil. Jesus with Satan and Dionysus with the Titans.

  6. Both return to their birthplace or hometown, only to be rejected,

  7. Both share an association with wine. Dionysus invents wine, promotes it as his gift to humanity. Jesus miraculously turns water into wine and later is portrayed as using his blood to save humanity.

  8. Both are wounded and killed by their adversaries. Jesus by the Roman State (implicitly seen as controlled by Satan) and Dionysus by the Titans.

  9. Both are portrayed as descending into the underworld. For the Jesus, account see 1 Peter 3:19 and 4:6.

  10. Both rise from death. Dionysus to divine immortality, joining Zeus, his father on the Greek heaven, Olympus. Jesus to rule from Heaven at his father’s right hand. (Phillipians 2, Acts 7:55-57, Daniel 7.)

  11. Both evangelise the world. Dionysus does establish his universal cult, and Jesus directs his followers to establish his universal cult.

  12. Both threaten (do) to punish opponents who deny their divinity, including turning parents against children etc.
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  2

  Living with Islam - Professor at Wheaton College (Wheaton, Illinois) suspended in row over comments on Islam.

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  https://www.facebook.com/themapstories/videos/1665500500401993/?theater

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  fulltimestudent

  My friend drew my attention to this story, its interesting how complex this issue is becoming.

  And thinking (and reading) about the issue generally, I'm coming to think that at the heart of this issue, the problem is that Islam cannot live with itself. The division between the two main sects, (Sunni and Shiite) is so deep and has generated so much hatred toward the other, that no solution seems possible, even if the political west withdrew from the area.

  And then I thought of the deep enmity and hatred that the great Christian schism (Catholic versus Protestant) generated for centuries, and the wars that had this religious division at its root. And prior to that there was the hatred that each side had for the other in the Catholic/Orthodox division.

  Today, Christian peoples forget all about those days of hatred

  So maybe after a couple of hundred years Islam will have worn itself out and calmed down. Think you can wait that long?
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  Living with Islam - Professor at Wheaton College (Wheaton, Illinois) suspended in row over comments on Islam.

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  https://www.facebook.com/themapstories/videos/1665500500401993/?theater

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  fulltimestudent

  https://www.facebook.com/themapstories/videos/1665500500401993/?theater
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  8

  Why the Watchtower is not Christian

  by WireRider in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  a simple factual statement.

  part of another thread but i thought i would offer it everyone.. jehovah witness are not christian.

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  fulltimestudent

  Cofty is quite correct. Matt Slick (the speaker) in that video is no Bible scholar. He assumes that there was one 'truth' and one organisation in the first century that could be called 'Christian.' But it is more accurate to see a diversity of belief in the first century,

  Geza Vermes was one of the best modern scholars of early Christianity. Perhaps you would find his book, Christian Beginnings: From Nazareth to Nicaea, AD 30-325, helpful.

  Vermes closely examines Paul's writings attempting to discern what he thought the Christ was. I wont bother to post all that he says, you can check it out for yourself if you really want to try to understand. But on page 106 (of my 2012) edition he posits that Paul never envisaged Jesus as fully sharing the nature of the deity. And on page 111 lists all the prayer formulas, benedictions and doxologies used by Paul, and demonstrates that it cannot be argued that Paul ever prayed TO Jesus as God.

  He further argues that the charismatic-eschatological religious teachings placed in the mouth of Jesus as his religious experience morphed into something a little different in the early Jewish-Christian church under the leadership of James (the brother of Jesus), and that Pauline Christianity appears to be another significant departure from the original teachings of Jesus.

  That btw does not prove the witnesses correct either. They posit that Jesus left behind a strong centralised religious organisation with clearly delineated teachings. There is little evidence of that.

  Another (Jewish) scholar, Daniel Boyarin, seen by some to be the leading scholar of early Judaism alive today, draws on Daniel 7 to demonstrate that in addition to YHWH the 'senior' divinity, Judaism countenanced a 'junior' divinity in that chapter of Daniel. And from that text, some Jewish converts could see Jesus as a God. Boyarin draws on other Jewish texts (First Enoch and Fourth Ezra) to demonstrate that some Jews did believe in the imminent presence of the Messiah, and his apotheosis (elevation to a divine status). Boyarin argues his position in some papers available in academic journals and in a more readable book, The Jewish Gospels: The Story of the Jewish Christ.

  Boyarin points out that primitive Hebrew religious texts are not monotheistic, and that's the source of the Daniel 7 concept.

  I'm sure that Boyarin is correct in saying that the concepts of monotheism were sourced in Egyptian religious ideas or the Zoroastrian religion that influenced Judaism while captive in Babylon, and possibly even Hellenistic thought which was dominant in all of west Asia by the time of Jesus.

  So while Paul may not have seen Jesus as God or even a God, certainly by circa 110 CE, there were Christians seeing Jesus as their God. But it was a slow evolution of a concept.
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  9

  Trinity doctrine and bible canonization

  by The JHWH in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hello, a quick question that came to find and couldn't find easy answer using google so i'ma try here.. so: was the doctrine of trinity decided to be a christian doctrine by the same people who chose which books to include in the bible?

  i vaguely remember that both of these subjects were decided at the first council of nicaea.

  if this is not the case, then when, where and by whom were these things decided?.

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  fulltimestudent

  The JHWH: So: Was the doctrine of trinity decided to be a christian doctrine by the same people who chose which books to include in the bible? I vaguely remember that both of these subjects were decided at the first council of Nicaea. If this is not the case, then when, where and by whom were these things decided?

  Ummm! The trinity doctrine developed to deal with certain contradictions caused by Christian beliefs. There is no clear story of the development of Christianity, all we can do is read early writings and attempt to figure out what was happening.

  For instance, Ignatius, the Overseer (Bishop) of the Antioch group of Christians was arrested around 110 CE, and sent to Rome to be tried. On the way he was greeted by representatives of various local churches, to whom he later wrote. Seven of those letters survive. The topics mostly deal with faithfulness and obedience . But from the viewpoint of JW dogma there are two interesting points in his letter to the Romans.It is clear from his that letter that he expected to be with Jesus soon after his death- there seems no expectation of a long sleep in death.

  But the second point touches on your question. In ch.3 vs 3, he writes,

  "Our God Jesus Christ, indeed, has revealed himself ..."

  So, within a generation (at the most) of the death of the Apostles, a Church leader could call Jesus, "God."

  However, that was just the start of a long journey to reconcile that idea with other Jewish teachings. However some scholars (like Daniel Boyarin) feel that the vision of Daniel 7 had already prepared the way for a concept of a senior God and a Junior God.

  Boyarin feels that this idea came from the long intellectual movement within Judaism from polytheism to monotheism. ( See his The Jewish Gospels: The Story of the Jewish Christ.)

  
  

  I myself have the opinion, that the Hellenisation of West Asia introduced (if nothing else already had not) the concept of apotheosis, the elevation of a human to Godship (divine status). In Greek mythology, Hercules (Heracles) who had a human mother, but a God (Zeus) for a father, was apotheosised after his death and was escorted to heaven by the Goddess Athena. How natural for the gospel writers to describe their beliefs about Jesus, using commonly discussed Hellenic ideas.