Posts by fulltimestudent

1

A Very Buddhist Chrissie Cartoon

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

.

Where the real abuse lies.

by ctrwtf in

jw
friends

let me start with a disclaimer: i am in no way minimizing the horrific crimes done to children by pedophiles.

i'm not downplaying the number of lives lost due to the blood issue, or hearts broken because of shunning.

i do not want to discount the feelings of those who have come to the end of their lives with expectations of paradise postponed.. but to me the biggest atrocity committed by this awful cult is raising children from a small age to believe that soon god will kill billions of people.

fulltimestudent

The issue of preservation or destruction is older than Christianity, but since we are talking about people claiming to be Christians (of any brand) its good to remember that this is a topic that Jesus personally propagated.

Explicitly in Matthew 25:41. And implicitly in Matthew 24:9-22 and Revelation 19:17-21.

I could quote a heap more texts, except that I'm tired of quoting the poor deluded bugger, who is really responsible for all the problems alluded to in the past few posts. It all starts with Jesus.

21

Where the real abuse lies.

by ctrwtf in

jw
friends

let me start with a disclaimer: i am in no way minimizing the horrific crimes done to children by pedophiles.

i'm not downplaying the number of lives lost due to the blood issue, or hearts broken because of shunning.

i do not want to discount the feelings of those who have come to the end of their lives with expectations of paradise postponed.. but to me the biggest atrocity committed by this awful cult is raising children from a small age to believe that soon god will kill billions of people.

fulltimestudent

But we all 'accepted' this organisation at some point in our lives and in some way submitted to its rulings.

Why?

For my part it was because I believed the biblical promises that they focused on.

Was it a terrible experience? (As it is in some cults, where there is a culture of bullying) Was it all bad? I can't argue that it was for me.The Congregation Servant (this is back in the fifties) in the first congregation I was associated with was one of the most gentle men you could meet, with a deep personal interest in the well-being of all in the congregation. In another congregation in which I pioneered in Victoria, the sisters in the congregation spontaneously organised themselves to provide a hot meal each day for an elderly brother.

Its true that Australia may have a different culture generally, and perhaps in the JW congregations of that country. It maybe that different nations see other nations in different ways. Most Australian witnesses that I knew thought that American witnesses were very materialistic, and that European witnesses were too free with alcohol (sorry if I'm treading on some toes). And, I heard that at Gilead, the Australian experience in WW2 was help up as an example of how rebellion may develop at the end of the 1000 years. The line of reasoning may have been that Aussies were too relaxed and couldn't see what was really rebellious.

Those who stay (including my own kids), and are living in the western world, where there is an emphasis on personal freedom and individual choice, must find something attractive in witness life. I 'believed' like any Christian must believe, and assisted my kids to believe by choice. Did I brainwash them? That depends how you define 'brainwash.' I believed that raising questions and providing answers was the way to teach. That's the meaning of the word 'catechism,' - a summary of the principles of Christian religion in the form of questions and answers, used for religious instruction. And the Catholic church (a highly structured organisation) like the witnesses, still uses a catechism, to instruct children and converts.

I decided not to be confrontational with my own kids (who were adults anyway). They want to stay in that organisation. What right do I have to be confrontational? They all seem to be OK people, with successful lives ( among the three marriages - one partner has undertaken tertiary studies, and another is involved in teaching dancing as a hobby). Some argue that they are wasting their lives. Maybe so! But some people say to me, why do you want to waste your life going to university and studying for exams, why don't you relax and go fishing, like me? The answer is because I want to (and anyway I hate fishing - the existential struggle of the fish upsets me). I see no reason to struggle against my kids, even though Christianity has placed a barrier between us.

13

Organization, not a concept established by God

by StarTrekAngel in

i was dwelling over a discussion going on at jw-archive.

the old topic of the legitimacy of the gb and the concept of centralized organization.

despite what the wt claims, there are a number of examples in the new testament of actions and decisions taken without direction or even the awareness of the elders in jerusalem.. despite whatever other evidence jw may have about the organizational tendencies of god (namely the creation, universe, whatever else they usually bring up), the concept of an organized nation never originated from god.

fulltimestudent

Beth Sarim : There's nothing in the Bible about Organized Religion.

Are you sure?

What name would you give to the highly organised arrangements for worship in the first and second temples described in different parts of the Bible? Surely that was highly organised worship.

Actually, most early religion revolved around worship in a temple, with priests and sacrifices. The Jewish way was not unique.

A philosophical content seems to have arrived at a later stage. Karl Jaspers, a German philosopher, called that stage of human development, 'the Axial Age' locating it between the 8th and 3rd centuries BCE (700s to 200s BCE). In West Asia, the Greek Pre-socratic philosphers, in Central Asia, Zoroastrian thought, In India early 'Hindu' thought and Buddhism, and in East Asia (China) Confucianism, Moism (Universal Love) and Daoism were all part of the era.

The changes in thinking led to the inclusion of 'thought systems' into religion.

What I've written is a very simplistic description of tremendous changes in the way that humans viewed the world.

9

Jesus 40 day fast, what really happened?

by Formerbrother in

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-study-march-2016/questions-from-readers/.

did satan physically take jesus to the temple when tempting him?.

put simply, we cannot be certain whether jesus actually stood in the temple or he did so only by means of a vision.

fulltimestudent

Jesus suffered from delusions.

As he grew up he gradually came to imagine that he was going to fulfill a special role for the people that he saw as 'God's people.' But to do that he needed to demonstrate his legitimacy. I submit that through his claimed supernatural experiences he could ask his disciples and his audiences to accept the role that he claimed for himself

Whether he described that 40 days to his disciples or not is unclear. According to Luke's narrative, no one else accompanied him during the claimed 40 day fast. The whole experience may have been in his fevered imagination, that he related at some future point. If not so, then the authors of the gospels made it up for the same reasons.

It is very difficult for people living now to understand the thought patterns of people living in world of that time. The sociohistorical realities that shape the way that social groups (communities) see the world are often just assumed when people speak or write. If we think in terms or of our own sociohistorical realities then we will often get an entirely wrong impression.

2

The Influence of Hellenism on Early Christianity: Dionysus as a Template for the Jesus Gospels

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

the influence of hellenism on early christianity: dionysus as a pattern for the mythical aspects of jesus..

the palestine in which the young jesus grew up was strongly influenced by hellenic mythology.

for some 600 years the jews had been subjects of first the persian empire and then the empires of alexander the great, his hellenic successors (the ptolemies and the xxxx), and eventually the romans.

fulltimestudent

Sorry, about the XXXX on the third line. It was meant to remind me to check the spelling of 'Seleucids' who were the other Hellenic empire that ruled Palestine and the Jews in the post-Alexander centuries.

When I'm writing from memory, I occasionally get a mental question on spelling.

There was some problem in posting, and I did not get back to the final edit.

............................

dothemath: Fascinating to see so many similarities. I've read how many think John's gospel was influenced by Greek philosophy ( regarding the "word" ) from the first chapter.

There seems little doubt that John's first chapter had a strong dose of Hellenism in it. Of course, another way to see the chapter is that the author was using Hellenistic thought to explain the role of Jesus as he saw it.
And, yet another perspective, is that the 'culture' of the Palestinian area was part of a more general west Asian culture that had local pockets influenced by their own ethnic cultures.

The so-called 'Pre-socratic' philosophers that are generally seen as beginning Greek thought (philosophy) were clustered along the western coast of Asia Minor (now Turkey). On land and the coastal seas there was a lot of traffic from trade between that area and Egypt/North Africa, so its arguable that long before Alexander conquered the Persian Empire, Greek culture was influencing the coastal peoples. Alexander's policy, and that of his successors, of settling retired Greek soldiers (married to local women) into colonies all through these lands, saturated them with Hellenistic thought and concepts.

On the topic of logos, you may find this Oregon State U, website informative:
http://web.engr.oregonstate.edu/~funkk/Personal/logos.html

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Living in India - life as a runaway kid

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

from the hongkong based, south china morning post:.

http://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/article/1892363/indias-runaways-and-charities-saving-them-abuse?utm_source=edm&utm_medium=edm&utm_content=20151220&utm_campaign=scmp_today#.

these kids were lucky, a ngo group saw them first.

fulltimestudent

From the Hongkong based, South China Morning Post:

http://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/article/1892363/indias-runaways-and-charities-saving-them-abuse?utm_source=edm&utm_medium=edm&utm_content=20151220&utm_campaign=scmp_today#

These kids were lucky, a NGO group saw them first. Their stories are in the above overview.

The Indian National Crime Records Bureau states that over 65,000 boys go missing from home every year, only about 40,000 are ever traced. (I think that's conservative, if - as some estimate- over 70% of Indians are still living in poverty, then the likelihood of every missing boy being reported to any authority is small)

2

The Influence of Hellenism on Early Christianity: Dionysus as a Template for the Jesus Gospels

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

the influence of hellenism on early christianity: dionysus as a pattern for the mythical aspects of jesus..

the palestine in which the young jesus grew up was strongly influenced by hellenic mythology.

for some 600 years the jews had been subjects of first the persian empire and then the empires of alexander the great, his hellenic successors (the ptolemies and the xxxx), and eventually the romans.

fulltimestudent

The Influence of Hellenism on Early Christianity: Dionysus as a Pattern for the Mythical Aspects of Jesus.

The Palestine in which the young Jesus grew up was strongly influenced by Hellenic Mythology. For some 600 years the Jews had been subjects of first the Persian Empire and then the Empires of Alexander the Great, his Hellenic successors (the Ptolemies and the XXXX), and eventually the Romans. Their god YHWH had not been able to protect them from these powerful empires.

That Hellenic culture affected Judaism is beyond doubt with most contemporary discussion centring on the extent of that influence. It can be suggested that the influence may be seen in the perspective from which Jewish topics were perceived. Hence in writing about Jesus, the gospel writers may have used patterns pf Greek mythology, to present Jesus in the light cast by the prevailing Hellenistic culture.

A comparison of Dionysus as represented by Euripides in his drama The Bacchae,(first performed in 405 BCE) and the Jesus presented in the synoptic gospels, shows so many similarities that both accounts could be seen as conforming to an archetypal pattern. Were the gospel authors, consciously or unconsciously using that pattern?

This list demonstrates the similarities.

1. Both were sons of a ruling God, who impregnated a human woman to produce a son.

2. Both Semele (with a royal ancestry) and Mary are presented as virgins.

3. Both Dionysus and Jesus must survive an attempt to kill them while still babies.

4. Both are presented as able to perform miracles to inspire faith in their divinity.

5. Both have to do battle with supernatural forces of evil. Jesus with Satan and Dionysus with the Titans.

6. Both return to their birthplace or hometown, only to be rejected,

7. Both share an association with wine. Dionysus invents wine, promotes it as his gift to humanity. Jesus miraculously turns water into wine and later is portrayed as using his blood to save humanity.

8. Both are wounded and killed by their adversaries. Jesus by the Roman State (implicitly seen as controlled by Satan) and Dionysus by the Titans.

9. Both are portrayed as descending into the underworld. For the Jesus, account see 1 Peter 3:19 and 4:6.

10. Both rise from death. Dionysus to divine immortality, joining Zeus, his father on the Greek heaven, Olympus. Jesus to rule from Heaven at his father’s right hand. (Phillipians 2, Acts 7:55-57, Daniel 7.)

11. Both evangelise the world. Dionysus does establish his universal cult, and Jesus directs his followers to establish his universal cult.

12. Both threaten (do) to punish opponents who deny their divinity, including parents against children etc.

2

The Influence of Hellenism on Early Christianity: Dionysus as a Pattern for the Mythical Aspects of Jesus.

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

the influence of hellenism on early christianity: dionysus as a pattern for the mythical aspects of jesus..

the palestine in which the young jesus grew up was strongly influenced by hellenic mythology.

for some 600 years the jews had been subjects of first the persian empire and then the empires of alexander the great, his hellenic successors (the ptolemies and the xxxx) and eventually the romans.

fulltimestudent

The Influence of Hellenism on Early Christianity: Dionysus as a Pattern for the Mythical Aspects of Jesus.

The Palestine in which the young Jesus grew up was strongly influenced by Hellenic Mythology. For some 600 years the Jews had been subjects of first the Persian Empire and then the Empires of Alexander the Great, his Hellenic successors (the Ptolemies and the XXXX) and eventually the Romans. Their god YHWH had not been able to protect them from these powerful empires.

That Hellenic culture affected Judaism is beyond doubt, most contemporary discussion centres on the extent of that influence. It can be suggested that the influence may be seen in ways that Jewish topics are perceived. Hence in writing about Jesus, the gospel writers are likely to have used Greek mythology to present Jesus in the light cast by the prevailing Hellenic culture.

A comparison of Dionysus as represented by Euripides in his drama The Bacchae,(first performed in 405 BCE) and the Jesus presented in the synoptic gospels, shows so many similarities that both accounts could be seen as conforming to an archetypal pattern. Were these authors, consciously or unconsciously using that pattern?