Ultimate Axiom : I remember a great deal of intellectual freedom ...
fulltimestudent
JoinedPosts by fulltimestudent
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Living Through the Brief Liberalization of Jehovah's Witnesses, Never Recovering
by TMS inwith the book crisis of conscience detailing the turbulence at bethel during the early to mid 70's, the transformation from autocratic rule to governance by committee or a body of men, many of us can speak to how that felt among the rank and file of the local congregations during those years.
we learned new concepts based in large part to research done for the aid to bible understanding volume, then we were asked or coerced into unlearning those principles, going back to the old ways.
some of us never readjusted, finding ourselves very different from our more hardline compadres.. the inertia for the changes that eventually were initiated in the congregations came from the discovery that the greek words episkopos and presbyteros were used biblically to refer to all qualified men in a congregation, not just one.
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fulltimestudent
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Did Jesus actually start a church to himself?
by TTWSYF inwith some 30,000 different christian denominations, how would one know which one was for real?
some folks think jesus did start a church, others think no.
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fulltimestudent
Mephis :And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
Again, that is the future tense. Even according to Matthew, written half a century later, the 'church' (ekklesia) doesn't exist when he says that to Peter. It is not "and on this rock I am building my church" or "on this rock I have built my church".And that's assuming Matthew has it right.
Haha! But the Matthew document (written by whom?) isn't the only document that mentions succession. The Gospel of Thomas, has another perspective:
"The disciples said to Jesus: We know that thou wilt go from us. Who is he who shall be great over us? Jesus said to them: In the place to which you come, you shall go to James the Just for whose sake heaven and earth came into being." (Gos.Thom. 12)
Ben Witherington III, another contemporary student of early Christianity, in his "New Testament History: A Narrative Account,' and is a believer* discusses the key role played by the family of Jesus, and quotes the above passage, acknowledging that "James played and important and central role in the earliest days of Christianity ..."
He then quotes the early church historians, Eusebius and Epiphanius, that the first two bishops ot the church in Jerusalem were relative of Jesus - James and Simeon, and refers to evidence** that the grandsons of Jesus' other brother Jude (likely author of the NT letter of that name).
Interestingly, he continues that:"What little evidence we have does not encourage us to think that Galilean Christianity under the family of Jesus, and perhaps some of the Twelve, was any less Jewish than the Jerusalem-centred community."
In other words, Christianity (at first) was a Jewish sect, in the same way that the Essenes were a Jewish sect, which is also the point that Vermes was making, as I noted in my previous post.
We can only guess how James got involved in the early church, and how James and Peter sorted out their respective roles.
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* In the dedication of the above-mentioned book he acknowledges a R.D.H., who has been the hands of Jesus in my life.
** R.Bauckham, Jude and the Relatives of Jesus in the Early Church, (Edinburgh: Clark,1990) -
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Reading the book of Enoch found some gems.
by Crazyguy infirst off the book of enoch or at least some of it's writings we're found among the dead sea scrolls.
this to me proves that this book was as important to the jews back then as any other.
in the book a few things i noticed.
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fulltimestudent
Lieu : These missing or omitted texts make me wonder.
1. At the writing of revelation, Christians are on the run AWAY from Roman territories. The 7 congregations mentioned are all in what's now Turkey.This map may help you to picture the Roman empire about the end of the 3rd Century CE.
After Constantine became Emperor, he built a new capital for the Empire and named it Constantinople. It was renamed by the Ottomans when they captured the city as Istanbul.
As can be seen on this next map. Nicaea is not so far from Constantinople.
The Orthodox (eastern) churches make more fuss over the first council of Nicea that Protestant churches. This Othodox religious icon glorifies the council
And also in that part of the empire (and also part of modern Turkey) are the seven churches of Revelation.
Its good you're wondering about it all!
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Reading the book of Enoch found some gems.
by Crazyguy infirst off the book of enoch or at least some of it's writings we're found among the dead sea scrolls.
this to me proves that this book was as important to the jews back then as any other.
in the book a few things i noticed.
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fulltimestudent
There is also a claim that Jesus quoted from the Book of Enoch. That is I think, a bit of a stretch, the use of similar wording does not necessarily mean a direct quote, and then again, if Jesus is quoted accuratedly it may just means that both Jesus and the author of the Enoch document had read (or, heard of) some other document that is now lost. For what its worth here's a list of claimed usage.
Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. (Mat 5:5) The elect shall possess light, joy and peace, and they shall inherit the earth. (Enoch 5:7 {6:9})
the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the son (John 5:22). the principal part of the judgment was assigned to him, the Son of man. (Enoch 69:27 {68:39})
shall inherit everlasting life (Mat. 19:29) those who will inherit eternal life (Enoch 40:9 {40:9})
"Wo unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. (Luke 6:24) Woe to you who are rich, for in your riches have you trusted; but from your riches you shall be removed. (Enoch 94:8 {93:7}).
Ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mat. 19:28) I will place each of them on a throne of glory (Enoch 108:12 {105:26})
Woe unto that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born. (Mat. 26:24) Where will the habitation of sinners be . . . who have rejected the Lord of spirits. It would have been better for them, had they never been born. (Enoch 38:2 {38:2})
between us and you there is a great gulf fixed. (Luke 16:26) by a chasm . . . [are] their souls are separated (Enoch 22: 9,11{22:10,12})
In my Father's house are many mansions (John 14:2) In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory, and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations. (Enoch 45:3 {45:3})
that ye may be called the children of light (John 12:36) the good from the generation of light (Enoch 108:11 {105: 25})
the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. (John 4:14) all the thirsty drank, and were filled with wisdom, having their habitation with the righteous, the elect, and the holy. (Enoch 48:1 {48:1}) -
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Reading the book of Enoch found some gems.
by Crazyguy infirst off the book of enoch or at least some of it's writings we're found among the dead sea scrolls.
this to me proves that this book was as important to the jews back then as any other.
in the book a few things i noticed.
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fulltimestudent
Crazyguy : First off the book of Enoch or at least some of it's writings we're found among the dead sea scrolls.
I agree its an important reference for us today. But its mere presence among the DDS found at Qumran need not prove that it was considered important. We need to understand why they may have considered it important.
freemindfade : I've always found this text interesting as well. This plus the book of Enoch is quoted in the bible book of James.
I went looking for the James reference, and couldn't find one. Would you mind posting it?
It also occurred to me that perhaps you may have meant Jesus' other brother Jude?
Its accepted by some that Jude was quoting the Enoch document,
Jude 1:14-15, quoting Enoch 1:9 {2:1} [1]
"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
"To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches, which ungodly sinners have spoken against him." -
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Not Everything in Russia is serious -What do people think of a naked woman climbing down a ladder
by fulltimestudent inthis is from a russian tv show called 'naked and funny,' reminiscent of american tv shows in the 50s/60s.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkrse4gvvue.
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fulltimestudent
This is from a Russian TV show called 'Naked and Funny,' reminiscent of American TV shows in the 50s/60s.
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Curiousity interest - Russian President Putin Attends Orthodox Christmas Mass last week in Turginovo Church
by fulltimestudent inhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvfi14wdugo
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Obeying YHWH can make you sick
by fulltimestudent inwe were once told and re-told that obedience to yhwh and his side-kick would save our lives..
so how about this bit of real-life research that's currently emerging in academic circles?.
there were strict rules in the law code about how and where you could sh*t..
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fulltimestudent
Oh! dear... scatology (the study of excrement) always attracts attention.
But back to the point of the thread.
Can it be demonstrated that obedience to a law made the believers sick?
Yes it can!
The first post defined the rule that Jews were expected to obey, that is to excrete waste material from their bodies 'outside the camp.' I could not resist repeating, Dr Robert Cargill's point in his blog, that the reason the Israelites had to do that, was to avoid offending YHWH in case he saw their sh*t. But that was not the point I wanted to make.
As witnesses, it was drummed into us that, the hygiene sections of the law were there to protect the health of YHWH's worshippers. But, as you will see, his laws as demonstrated at Qumran actually made them sick.
Because of the importance of the Dead Sea Scrolls in understanding both early Judaism and early Christianity, all kinds of academic disciplines have taken an interest in the site. This report from the academic journal Nature, covers the research into the sects toilet habits.
Toilet excavation could link site to Dead Sea Scrolls.
Katharine Sanderson
The ancient site was riddled with roundworm eggs - a sign that it was used as a toilet.J. Zias
An ancient Jewish sect showed such devotion to their definition of purity that they pursued bizarre toilet habits that left them riddled with parasites, say researchers who have discovered and dug up their toilet.
The discovery, made at Qumran, near Jerusalem, could provide more proof linking the Dead Sea Scrolls to the Essene people who lived in the area, the researchers claim.
The scrolls — the oldest biblical documents ever found — were thought to have been made by the Essenes around 100 years BC. Joe Zias, a palaeopathologist at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem dug around Qumran where he thought their toilet should be, and took soil samples to try and prove the connection once and for all.
The scrolls describe strict rules for where the Essenes were allowed to defecate: far enough away from the camp not to be visible, sometimes as much as 3,000 cubits (1.4 kilometres) away in a northwesterly direction. They had to bury their faeces and perform a ritual all-over wash in the local waters afterwards.
At Qumran, following such instructions would take the Essene men to a nicely secluded spot behind a mound. And as Zias and his colleagues report in the current edition of Revue de Qumran1, the soil there bears the hallmarks of a latrine — and one not used by the healthiest of people.
Dirty bath water
Dead eggs from intestinal parasites, including roundworm (Ascaris), whipworm (Trichuris), tapeworm (Taenia) and pinworm (Enterobius vermicularis), were preserved in the soil. "If you look at a latrine from the past you will always find these parasites," comments Piers Mitchell, a medical practitioner and archaeologist at Imperial College London, UK.
It seems a pretty ordinary picture of ancient ill health, says Mike Turner, a parasitologist at the University of Glasgow, UK. He describes the pinworm rather aptly as "common as muck", adding that to use its presence to argue that the Essenes wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls is "an interesting bit of lateral thinking", he says.
The Qumran site was home to the authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls, claim researchers.J. Zias
But Zias is certain that the toilet was used by the scrolls' authors. He was already convinced that the Essenes lived at Qumran from previous studies of the local graveyard, which contains remains of almost exclusively men, which fits with the fact that the Essenes were a monastic sect.
What's more, the men buried there had an average age at death of 34, making them a sickly bunch. But it wasn't the toilet parasites that finished them off, Zias suggests, but their ritual of post-poo bathing in a stagnant pool.
Geography worked against the Essenes because the pool in which they cleansed themselves was filled with run-off collected during the winter months. "Had they been living in Jericho 14 kilometres to the north, where one finds fresh spring water, or in other sites whereby one has an oasis, they would have lived quite well," Zias says.
The location of the latrine at Qumran conforms with the directions laid down in the Dead Sea Scrolls, proving that the Essene lived there, Zias claims. Sanitation around the time of the Essenes was good, and ordinary people were unlikely to go so far out of the city to defecate.
If his theory is correct, it might therefore carry a lesson about religious fundamentalism, Zias adds. "It shows what happens when people take biblical things too fundamentally or literally, as they do in many parts of the world, and what the ultimate consequences are."“It shows what happens when people take biblical things too literally.”
Reference: http://www.nature.com/news/2006/061113/full/news061113-5.html
So, briefly, because of their toilet habits, the soil in the selected area became grossly infected with round worm eggs and walking barefoot or touching the soil with bare hands (how else do you dig but with a hand held implement) led to more and more infections. Piling sh*t on sh*t as it were, the water in which they washed was not running water, and it also became contaminated with worm eggs etc.
You likely noted from the above article that the skeletal remains at the site all seem to be of a younger age, indicating that the continual infections made them sicker and sicker.
That's the price of blind obedience.
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Did Jesus actually start a church to himself?
by TTWSYF inwith some 30,000 different christian denominations, how would one know which one was for real?
some folks think jesus did start a church, others think no.
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fulltimestudent
Anyone trying to come to grips with the origin and development of what we mean when we speak of 'Christianity' may find Geza Vermes' book,'Christian Beginnings: From Nazareth to Nicaea, AD 30-325,' helpful.
Vermes was of Jewish stock, who became a RC priest when young, but left the church to marry. He became Reader in Jewish studies at Oxford in 1965 and then full Professor in 1989. When he died, the UK Guardian described him as, "one of the world's leading authorities on the origins of Christianity*." He was also one of the leading scholars in the field of Dead Sea Scrolls studies.** His 1998 publication, 'The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English,' ( which does not include fragments or Biblical texts) is often used as a text book in university courses dealing with the DDS. In Christian Beginnings, Vermes' attempts to sketch the historical continuity between the charismatic Jesus preaching in Galilee and the first ecumenical council (Nicaea, 325CE). His view of Jesus, described in his 1973 book, 'Jesus the Jew,' that Jesus never deviated from his Jewish beliefs is now commonly accepted in scholarship. However, we should note that Judaism over the centuries was not the homogeneous, monolithic religion described in watchtower (and others) literature. There was never 'one truth faith' starting with Noah, and developing through Abraham and Moses etc.
If you can grasp his picture of developing Judaism, I suggest you will have a much better understanding of the origins of Christianity, which continues to have both formal and charismatic forms, as did the Judaism of the first century CE.
The formal form of Judaism centred on the Temple and the Torah. The first temple worship seems to have been in the mobile tent/sanctuary described in the Pentateuch, but after settlement in Canaan there were a number of small temple/sanctuaries across Palestine that were eventually closed and formal worship confined to the Jerusalem temple/sanctuary that was destroyed finally by the Romans who made Jerusalem a gentile/pagan city.
The Torah likewise evolved over the centuries as a set of teachings describing the Jewish way of life. The conduct of that worship and its instruction (and enforcement-sanctions) was in the hands of a hereditary priesthood, first from the family of Levi, and once worship was focussed on the Jerusalem temple, the privileged family of Aaron. But there could be challenges to the establishment, High priest Onias IV, after the murder of his father, high priest Onias III, in 171 BCE set up a competing temple/sanctuary in Leontopolis (in the Nile Delta) that lasted until it too was destroyed by the Romans in 73/74 CE. There was also another Jewish temple in Egypt on a Nile river island at Elephantine.
Another schism occurred when the Maccabees took over formal Judaism in 152 BCE. Vermes suggests that the Essenes (likely the same sect as those at Qumran) were opposed to the Maccabees (in some way) and forsook worship at Jerusalem, and saw themselves as worshipping in a 'spiritual temple' by means of prayer and holy living. (You can read all their prescriptions for 'true worship' in the Dead Sea Scrolls documents usually known as: The Community Rules, The Damascus Document, the War Scroll, and the Temple Scroll, in particular.)
In those forms of worship, authority was derived from legal codes and standardised worship and offices. (And as we see in JW worship and most other churches by appointment to office from the central authority).
But there's another way to gain authority, one that was highlighted by Max Weber, the famous German sociologist. He focussed attention on what he called, the 'charismatic hero/leader.' This authority figure doesn't inherit power, neither is he appointed to power. The charismatic hero/leader gains and maintains his (and sometimes a 'her.') by proving his strength in life. If he wants to be a political leader, he must defeat his enemies, but if he wants to be a 'prophet,' then he must prove himself through his prophetic insights and miracles. So we see in parallel to formal Judaism another form, with Moses as a prototype and continuing through time with the prophets and Vermes argues, with Jesus, and the others in his time that preached throughout Palestine.
There is no text in which Jesus commanded his followers to leave Judaism and start a new church. After his death, his followers continued to meet and worship as Jews, believing that the fulfillment of prophecies (such as Daniel) was imminent, and that the Jewish god would restore Israel to its divinely appointed power.
The separation of the "Christian" organisation from Judaism commenced slowly from the mid first century CE, when those hopes failed to materialise.
The destruction of formal Judaism in 70 CE was a catostrophic event in connection with the messianic expectations.
It is also useful to appreciate that although modern readers attempt to project their contemporary experience back to the first century, most scholarship is agreed that there was not one, but many forms of early Christianity. It took near to 300 years for one form to claim formal control, but it always faced competition, for example, the eastern church lying within the Iranian/Sasanian empire was not controlled by the Roman church based then in Constantinople. Most Christians in those days were located in Asia, not Europe. An example is the Ebionites and the Elchasaites, from them sprang the Prophet Mani, whose form of Christianity swept across Asia to China. (the last known Manichean temple in the world is located in the Chinese coastal city of Quanzhou).
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* http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/may/14/geza-vermes
** http://www.oxfordbiblicalstudies.com/article/opr/t94/e497 for an overview
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Obeying YHWH can make you sick
by fulltimestudent inwe were once told and re-told that obedience to yhwh and his side-kick would save our lives..
so how about this bit of real-life research that's currently emerging in academic circles?.
there were strict rules in the law code about how and where you could sh*t..
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fulltimestudent
We were once told and re-told that obedience to YHWH and his side-kick would save our lives.
So how about this bit of real-life research that's currently emerging in academic circles?
There were strict rules in the law code about how and where you could sh*t.
Now one of those commandments is inscribed at Deuteronomy 23:14-15
Just why is explained in the associated verses, and discussed by Dr Robert Cargill on his blog.
Interestingly, of the above reasons given in support of the command to the Israelites to cover their poo, it is the latter (not wanting to step in it) and not the former (hygiene) that is given as the theological reason for burying one’s foul:
Deut. 23:12 You shall have a designated area outside the camp to which you shall go.
Deut. 23:13 As part of your equipment have something to dig with, and when you relieve yourself, dig a hole and cover up your excrement.
Deut. 23:14 For the LORD your God moves about in your camp to protect you and to deliver your enemies to you. Your camp must be holy, so that he will not see among you anything indecent and turn away from you.God steps in poo. This must be avoided.
You read that correctly. God WALKS IN THE MIDST OF YOUR CAMP (Hebrew: מִתְהַלֵּךְ בְקֶרֶב מַחֲנֶךָ = “paces/walks in the midst of your camp”), and you don’t want God to step in it! In fact, God doesn’t even want to see (Hebrew: ראה) anything indecent (Hebrew: עֶרְוַת דָּבָר = “any naked thing”).
God stepping in your poo. This must be prevented
This is the reason given for why Israelites must go outside of the camp to go, and then cover their poo: because God walks around the camp and they don’t want God to step in their poo, and if he even sees it, he’ll “turn away” from the camp (as it stinks and is no longer “holy”), and will stop protecting/delivering them and will stop handing their enemies over to them in battle.
Apparently, if you want God in the midst of your camp, he can’t be in the midst of your crap.
So in the end, the rationale for covering one’s poo is not hygienic, nor is it public health, but rather the Israelites are to cover their poo so that God doesn’t step in it or see it,because if he does, he’ll leave them and they’ll start losing battles.
Now it so happens (and maybe you never thought that we could find some ancient Jewish crap) that we can still find a place where faithful and obedient Jews did precisely what the Law code commanded.
The Jews who lived at Qmran (quite possibly they belonged to the Essenes sect) were noted for their strict adherence to the Mosaic law. These are the people associated with the dead sea scrolls, and their Qumran ‘camp’ has been the focus of a huge archaeological search for more information.
In the next post, we can find out what happened when these faithful Jews obeyed the law, 'shat' outside the camp, and made it possible for YHWH to walk around their camp without getting poo on his sandals.
