There's one more song that will probably be played around the pubs in OZ today. Its more topical, but has the same bitter edge.
fulltimestudent
JoinedPosts by fulltimestudent
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ANZAC day.
by zeb inthe 25th april in australia and new zealand is called anzac day.
the word is from australia new zealand army corp.. on this day are commemorated the lives of those lost in war.
the 25th april is the day in 1915 that the forces under incompetent commanders landed on the coast of turkey at a place called gallipoli or galliboli in turkish, in an effort to force turkey out of the great war.. the landings were an unmitigated blunder.
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ANZAC day.
by zeb inthe 25th april in australia and new zealand is called anzac day.
the word is from australia new zealand army corp.. on this day are commemorated the lives of those lost in war.
the 25th april is the day in 1915 that the forces under incompetent commanders landed on the coast of turkey at a place called gallipoli or galliboli in turkish, in an effort to force turkey out of the great war.. the landings were an unmitigated blunder.
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fulltimestudent
eqv - It's a great song, and the full version makes it clearer that the 'Anzac glory' about a wonderful war perverts the truth. And the stupidity and cupidity evident in the public and 'secret' deals that the British and French made during and after the war, deals that reflected their view of the world, are still killing people in West Asia right now.
Here's the full version:
Esse quam videri : '...Johnny Turk had prepped himself well. He rained us with bullets and shot us with shell. In five minutes flat we were all blown to hell. He almost blew us back to Australia....We stopped to burn our dead. We burned ours and the Turks burned theirs and we started all over again...'
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The first known graffiti making fun of Christians
by fulltimestudent inwhat was the graffiti artist intending when he/she scratched this cartoon like drawing on the wall of a building that served as a training school for imperial guards and personal attendants in the imperial palace area of rome.
it is known as the alexamenos graffito.. .
our interest may focus on the crucified figure, but as a tracing of the drawing makes a little clearer - there's another figure of interest, a young male whose gestures indicate that he's praying, and the crudely written text says: .
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fulltimestudent
Half banana : It is really important to know that any early secular references to "christians" cannot be attributed to a particular cult or temple let alone one of the the Jesus cults.
You may like to provide a reference (or more than one if you wish) to the above.
As far as this statement is concerned:
"Early christianity was lumped with what was later perjoratively called paganism by the Romans since their beliefs overlapped as did the types of worship including prayer with arms extended."
I agree that to view the past from our contemporary perspective may distort our conclusions, but it takes effort to separate the two.
Having said that, I would agree with you that in Roman thought the possibility exists that all worship could be called 'religio,' although there are other possibilities, as is evident in one, mid-second century imperial letter, which speaks of, "those who do not follow Roman religion." (religio).
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The first known graffiti making fun of Christians
by fulltimestudent inwhat was the graffiti artist intending when he/she scratched this cartoon like drawing on the wall of a building that served as a training school for imperial guards and personal attendants in the imperial palace area of rome.
it is known as the alexamenos graffito.. .
our interest may focus on the crucified figure, but as a tracing of the drawing makes a little clearer - there's another figure of interest, a young male whose gestures indicate that he's praying, and the crudely written text says: .
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fulltimestudent
Yes, horses and their relatives (asses and donkeys etc) have been important in human history and therefore (at times) worshipped.
Is it possible that above graffito was based on Alexamenos' worship of a 'horse/god?' It's difficult to say yes or no, without more information. For example, if we knew that Alexamenos was South Asian (Indian) in origin, then I could make a connection.
This is how it could be argued, the Romans were the western market tor the East-West Trade Network (the so-called Silk Road - see Revelation 18). It was difficult for the Romans to trade directly with China, Iran (under both the Parthians and Sasanians) blocked the way and exacted a high tariff. To bypass Iran, the Romans developed trade links with India. So we know it was possible (but not necessarily probable) for a South Asian to find himself in a Roman territory, and somehow become involved in some action that resulted in his enslavement. Being bought and sold a few times, its possible that he finished up as a slave in the Imperial household.
In south Asia, there was a horse-headed god.
Images from Wikipedia.
He was an avatar of Vishnu, named Hayagriva. Information about this god, has been traced back to circa 2000 BCE, among the Indo-Aryan people who were moving south from the central Asia steppes where horses were important.
But it can be appreciated that this interpretation is highly dependent on some coincidences required to explain how a horse worshipper finished up in the Imperial palace. And, it can be noted I offer no explanation as to why this possible explanation has the horse god portrayed as executed.
Compare that to the explanation offered by most scholars. We know that Christians were in Rome in the period most likely to have been the time in which the graffito was scrawled on the wall. No coincidences required. We know that (apparently) Alexamenos (who may have made the second inscription himself), clearly saw himself as a faithful worshipper. If he wrote the second inscription, 'Alexamenos fidelis' ( trans: Alexamenos is faithful) himself, it may have been his response to the first graffito. (Or, maybe another Christian wrote it to encourage him). The vocabulary fits what we know about early Christians.
So how could we explain the horse/ass head on the crucified 'god?'
Is there anything that connects a horse headed figure to early Christianity?
A Wikipedia entry on Alexamenos states:
"Tertullian, writing in the late 2nd or early 3rd century, reports that Christians, along with Jews, were accused of worshipping such a deity.
He also mentions an apostate Jew who carried around Carthage a caricature of a Christian with ass's ears and hooves, labeled Deus Christianorum Onocoetes ("the God of the Christians begotten of an ass")."Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexamenos_graffito
It is (as acknowledged) quite difficult to assert one interpretation as being the only possible explanation.
But it is possible to think through as to which explanation seems more likely.
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Review of Dr. Chryssides' new book on Jehovah's Witnesses
by Old Goat inhttp://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2016/04/a-review.html.
the book costs 140.00, but i bought it.
i agree with dr. de vienne's review.
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fulltimestudent
Wild_Thing : Thanks, Old Goat! Wow! I never knew the Watchtower claimed he was born before the time keeping of A.D. began.
Maybe it would be a good idea to check out our present calendar, which was first introduced in the sixteenth century, but took three centuries to have universal acceptance.
As far as the date of Jesus birth is concerned, most scholarship seems to focus on between 4 BCE and 6 BCE, so the WT seems a little closer to your thinking.
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The first known graffiti making fun of Christians
by fulltimestudent inwhat was the graffiti artist intending when he/she scratched this cartoon like drawing on the wall of a building that served as a training school for imperial guards and personal attendants in the imperial palace area of rome.
it is known as the alexamenos graffito.. .
our interest may focus on the crucified figure, but as a tracing of the drawing makes a little clearer - there's another figure of interest, a young male whose gestures indicate that he's praying, and the crudely written text says: .
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fulltimestudent
FayeDunaway : I dont remember the dating of the graffiti other than that I was impressed how early it was. Maybe 180 AD.
That's sort of in the agreed time, Faye. I do not think we can be more precise than that.
Just think, for decades this building was a sort of training school for young men who were to serve in some role in the Imperial palace. The wall in question was only preserved because another wall was built to cover it and provide support for a higher building. It was first acquired by Caligula, who was emperor between 37 and 41CE.
So remembering that this was drawn by a young person during the years in which it served as this school, we cannot expect anything about the building to fix a more precise date. Nothing else in the image, scrawled onto a wall, fixes a time.
But, we do have a young man, Alexamenos, who has a reputation among the other boys for 'praying' and who has apparently professed to being a Christian.
At what time a professed Christian could be found in the palace service is difficult to say precisely, but it seems later rather than earlier..
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It is also difficult to state what value the graffiti has in knowing the precise way Jesus was put to death. We are seeing, not an accurate portrayal of the death, but the image of a young (possibly a slave) co-worker of Alexamenos, who may otherwise have known nothing about Christianity, conjuring up an image to poke some fun at Alexamenos' habit of praying.
We see the graffiti writer's image of the Christian god, not the image that the Christian Alexamenos may have had in his mind.
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Circuit Overseer say. . .
by Ringo inlast night i had to suffer through the bs spouted by the new co. some garbage about the bible transforming us as people.
he went on and on about how we can look good to people at the hall who see the outside, but the bible will tell us what we are inside.. then he proceeded to use a few select verses to say sex is bad and so is the desire for it.
a healthy bank account or savings is wrong, shouldn't have that either.
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fulltimestudent
Ringo : Last night I had to suffer through the BS spouted by the new CO. ... Then he proceeded to use a few select verses to say sex is bad and so is the desire for it.
Sounds like he's got a problem with a 'desire for sex.' If so, he's in good company, Joe Rutherford seems to have had the same problem. And quite a few 'strong brothers,' have had the same problem.
In Sydney, years ago, a prominent bro, was dfed for screwing his S-in-law for 20 years, and the holy spirit did nothing about it.
Yeah! one more thing. A much more common complaint was by sisters whose husbands were so busy 'in the work of the Lord.' that they were too tired at night to do it. Or, at least that's the perception.
and,
A healthy bank account or savings is wrong, shouldn't have that either.
haha! "Rely on the non-existent YHWH" - and live a destitute old age, and be buried a pauper.
On Queensland's Gold Coast, there were so many old aged witnesses without enough funds for a proper disposal of their bodies (when they died) that one of the elders started making coffins out of particle board.
A glorious end to a life spent in YHWH's service. Wonderful isn't it?
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Review of Dr. Chryssides' new book on Jehovah's Witnesses
by Old Goat inhttp://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2016/04/a-review.html.
the book costs 140.00, but i bought it.
i agree with dr. de vienne's review.
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fulltimestudent
oppostate : From the review at http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2016/04/a-review.html it sure seems like Dr. C. got a lot of facts wrong
I think you skimmed Dr. de Vienne's review. Tracing what happened 150 years ago is difficult (even 50 years ago can be difficult). A scholar can spend decades studying a particular era of history and still have some details wrong.
That's more pertinent when it comes to a small, obscure sect like the first 'Bible Students' who were Russell's followers. Who thought to keep a diary of the activities of those involved? Who knew all of the movements of the people who appeared in the story.
For a comparison, look at how little we really know about the life of Jesus or the history of the early church. And what we do have is clearly coloured and biased.
Twice, de Vienne, makes the point that getting a detail wrong does not detract from the value of the book.
In the first paragraph de Vienne states:
"It is free of polemic, largely accurate and well written. ... In these respects it is superior to almost every book written about the Bible Student and Witness movements since 1920."
And later in his review he writes:
"While I believe it necessary to point out some flaws, I restate my opening point. This is an exceptional book, well worth the time spent reading it (four times.) It is impossible, or nearly so, to write a book like this and not have errors appear."
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Are Witnesses really "Bible Students"?
by stuckinarut2 inwe were always told that as witnesses we were "sincere bible students".... carefully examining the scriptures.. yes, we were indeed taught much about the content of the bible, it's history, prophecies etc..... but it was always from one perspective....that of the society.
when the society changed its interpretations, we had to do the same..... so were we really "bible students", or "society students"?.
just a thought.....
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fulltimestudent
stuckinarut2 : We were always told that as witnesses we were "sincere bible students".... Carefully examining the scriptures. Yes, we were indeed taught much about the content of the bible, it's history, prophecies etc....
But it was always from one perspective....that of the society.For an answer consider the meaning of the expression 'Bible student', to a 'Catholic Christian' who studies the Bible. Can they be a 'Bible student' if they read the Bible from the perspective of their Church.
Yes, of course.
OTOH, if by the expression 'Bible student,' you want to describe a person who objectively studies the Bible without a pre-concieved bias toward any particular belief system, then NO!!!
So an answer is dependent on what you mean by study.
I suggest to you that most Christians (of all brands) have never been 'students' of the Bible from the second perspective. Reading the NT, we can detect biased statements when particular texts from the OT are ripped out of their context and applied to either Jesus of to the early church, or to the developing doctrines of the church.
In the early church writings in you can find a lot of really stupid stuff. Just as stupid as anything that old Freddy F ever produced. Take as an example this 'proof' that 'resurrection' is 'natural.'
Clement of Rome, the third bishop of that church (and therefore an early Pope) wrote a letter to the Corinthian congregation who were having a big quarrel among themselves. Its dated to 95 or 95 CE. after dealing with the Corinthian congregations bitchfight, old Clement encourages the Corinthians to look ahead to the resurrection hope:
"Let us consider that wonderful sign [of the resurrection] which takes place in Eastern lands, that is, in Arabia and the countries round about. There is a certain bird which is called a phoenix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it enters and dies. But as the flesh decays a certain kind of worm is produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the dead bird, brings forth feathers. Then, when it has acquired strength, it takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the city called Heliopolis. And, in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode. The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the five hundredth year was completed. (Section or Chap 25)
Link: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-roberts.html
No-one now surely, would claim that to be part of unbiased study of Biblical doctrines.
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The first known graffiti making fun of Christians
by fulltimestudent inwhat was the graffiti artist intending when he/she scratched this cartoon like drawing on the wall of a building that served as a training school for imperial guards and personal attendants in the imperial palace area of rome.
it is known as the alexamenos graffito.. .
our interest may focus on the crucified figure, but as a tracing of the drawing makes a little clearer - there's another figure of interest, a young male whose gestures indicate that he's praying, and the crudely written text says: .
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fulltimestudent
What was the graffiti artist intending when he/she scratched this cartoon like drawing on the wall of a building that served as a training school for imperial guards and personal attendants in the Imperial palace area of Rome. It is known as the Alexamenos graffito.
Our interest may focus on the crucified figure, but as a tracing of the drawing makes a little clearer - there's another figure of interest, a young male whose gestures indicate that he's praying, and the crudely written text says:
"Alexamenos, worship your god"
Both Christians and pagans worshipped with arm(s) extended and the most likely interpretation of this crude drawing is that the graffiti artist was ridiculing a young slave named Alexamenos, who had become a Christian (either before or after his enslavement), and at times was likely observed to be praying. Since for most Romans in the period the thought of an executed person being a powerful divinity was ridiculous, we can understand why bored guards or attendants, standing around without too much to do, may think and act as the graffiti indicates.
It all seems to make sense when we think of another item of graffiti, in the same complex (the next door building to be precise). It simply states (and its claimed to be by a different writer) Alexamenos fidelis, - That is, "Alexamenos is faithful."
Which came first cannot now be ascertained. Did Alexamenos write Alexamenos fidelis to describe his own spiritual goal and his associates drew that cartoon to amke fun of his aspiration, or was it the other way round.
I would imagine that being a slave and a Christian was not easy. Slaves had few rights, in fact if a young, handsome Christian, male slave had an owner who wished to have sex with him, the slave would have had little choice but to submit.
The Wikipedia entry seems quite accurate in its discussion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexamenos_graffito
and an academic by the name of Dr Peter Keegan, at my university, in a book entitled 'Graffiti in Antiquity,' devotes about a page to it.
Whether we are Christian or not, the above graffiti gives us an insight into the minds of humans when this Asian religious concept was seeping into the western world. It's interesting to consider that at almost the same time as Christianity seeped into the Roman world, Buddhism seeped into the Chinese civilisation of the east.
