Posts by fulltimestudent

41

Are there any instances of "GOD" order and/or condoning the rape of women in the bible?

by Black Man in

jw
friends

this came up recently with my dyed-in-the-wool jw pioneer mother, who swears up and down that there are no scriptural instances of this happening.

i seem to remember a couple passages, but can't remember where they were..

fulltimestudent

Vidiot : The Bible definately doesn't seem to view sexual assault as a particularly big deal except in certain cases.

I agree!

And, we need to ask why? I'm currently thinking that its because our contemporary concept of rape as being a violation of a persons right to say No, was not the way that the ancients really thought about the problem.

I see that different way of thinking as being based on their attitude that 'women' were 'property.'

When young, and girls were unmarried, they were the property of their father/family. When married, they were the property of their husband, hence the use of the word 'baal,' with the meaning of 'husbandly owner' as the NWT translates Isaiah 54:5:

"For your Grand Maker is your husbandly owner, ..."

A choice in harmony with the meaning of 'baal' in this Blue Letter Bible site: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H1166&t=KJV

It seems to me that this attitude is behind the way that 2 Samuel 12:11,12 says David was to be punished. David violated another man's 'property.' so he would be punished the same way. His property (i.e. his wives) would be violated by another man.

YHWH didn't give a f*ck about the feelings of the women involved - they were just a piece of meat belonging to David.

There are other biblical passages that may indicate other perspectives, but the 'ownership' perspective is rather fundamental.
Anyone got a different viewpoint?

41

Are there any instances of "GOD" order and/or condoning the rape of women in the bible?

by Black Man in

jw
friends

this came up recently with my dyed-in-the-wool jw pioneer mother, who swears up and down that there are no scriptural instances of this happening.

i seem to remember a couple passages, but can't remember where they were..

fulltimestudent

And for more "Israelite family life" you may examine the story of a 'certain Levite' in Judges 19, travelling with his concubine, who, according to the story doesn't mind being screwed by some other bloke (see verse 2).

They find lodging for a night in Gibeah with an old man and they apparently have a good time eating and drinking. The author of this story had surely read the Sodom story, and thought it a rather good yarn, for he follows almost the same plot. While the Levite and their host (and maybe the Levite's wife) are having this good time, there's a banging on the door, its a mob of the local 'lads' looking for some sex -

"they shouted to the old man who owned the house, “Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him.” (vs 22)

The old man refuses, saying,

"No, my friends, don’t be so vile." (vs 23)

The old man then makes a 'two for one' offer the mob can't refuse.

"Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his (the Levite's) concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish." (vs 24)

The old man's daughter apparently refuses (sensible girl) because she doesn't get pushed out the door to the mob, but the text does seem to indicate (its a little confusing as to who grabs and pushes her outside) that the Levite himself grabs and gives her (his wife) to the sex-crazed mob.

"So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go." (vs 25)

But now the author of this biblical story let's his imagination go wild.

The Levite is angry and cuts the abused body of his 'wife' into 12 pieces and sends a piece to each of the 12 tribes (of Israel) and there's a general assembly over the rape and murder, and a decision is made to punish the whole tribe of Benjamin, because some Benjamite males carried out this sex crime. (the story continues in Judges ch 20).

YHWH now gets involved*, He commands that Judah take the lead in the battle with the Benjamites, but apparently the Israelite's do not have enough 'blood lust' because YHWH doesn't give them victory, and thousands of Israelite warriors are slain by the smaller Benjamite army, and again and again, before old YHWH gives them the victory and allows an act of genocide against the Benjamites.

So some smartarse now figures out that nearly all the Benjamite males are dead, and all the other Israelites have sworn not to allow their daughters to marry surviving Benjamites (ch 21:1), so there will soon be only 11 tribes, and they are supposed to have 12.

And then someone notices that the men of Jabesh-gilead had not taken part in the war against the Benjamites, so they decided to commit genocide and wipe them out as a punishment.

But fortuitously, 400 virgin girls are left, so they give them to the surviving Benjamite males, but 400 virgin girls are not enough. (the girls are not given a choice)

SO (and if you want an example of biblically approved rape, here it comes) - Every year there was a "festival of Jehovah," in Shiloh. The still womanless survivors of the Benjamite massacre are given permission to go to the festival, hide in the orchards around the city, and when the daughters of the Israelites that lived in Shiloh, came out to the orchards to sing and dance they could -

"“... watch. When the young women of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, rush from the vineyards and each of you seize one of them to be your wife. Then return to the land of Benjamin. (22) When their fathers or brothers complain to us, we will say to them, ‘Do us the favor of helping them, because we did not get wives for them during the war. You will not be guilty of breaking your oath because you did not give your daughters to them.’” (ch 21)

So if you've stayed the course, and read through this pointless stupid biblical story that demonstrates that the Israelites were total jerks, and YHWH the chief jerk, you should easily be able to realise that the Bible is merely a man-made book, and there's absolutely no point in waiting for YHWH to bring you everlasting life.

------------------------------------------

* Think about this! As the Israelite's follow the instructions of the all-wise, all-powerful, merciful YHWH, tens of thousands of ordinary Israelites (fathers, sons etc) die in battle, kids are left orphanned, families left without a breadwinner, the tribe of Benjamin is nearly wiped out and unnumbered more men left wounded, perhaps incapacitated for life.

All this, because the all-powerful, all-knowing YHWH didn't zap a few miscreants when they committed their crime.

41

Are there any instances of "GOD" order and/or condoning the rape of women in the bible?

by Black Man in

jw
friends

this came up recently with my dyed-in-the-wool jw pioneer mother, who swears up and down that there are no scriptural instances of this happening.

i seem to remember a couple passages, but can't remember where they were..

fulltimestudent

And also, 2 Samuel 12:11,12 - YHWH punishes David for committing adultery with Bathsheba,* with this threat:

"Thus says the LORD, 'Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight . 12'Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun.'"…

David the pervert.

So these women, without personal sin, were going to be publically raped so that YHWH could humiliate David. It was famously "fulfilled" in the biblical story, by one of David's sons, a story that tells us much about Israelite attitudes to women and family life under YHWH's rule.

--------------------------------------------

*'another man's property',see the meanings of baal on this Biblehub page: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/1166.htm )

2

Muslims Worshipping in China. (Not intended to provoke, but to inform)

by fulltimestudent in

the shanghaiist ( media outlet in shanghai owned by the new york based gothamist) published some of the 3000 images taken by a beijing born photographer, lee jian, lee grew up in a muslim family and in 2013 set out to photograph muslim communities across china, covering mosques in henan, hebei, ningxia, jilin, liaoning, shanxi and hebei.. members of a family sit together in the niujie mosque in beijing on the first day of ramadan.. .

a little girl reads the koran in chaoyang mosque, beijing.. .

a gathering at east xiguan mosque.. .

fulltimestudent

No Smiddy, there have been some ferocious terrorist attacks in China. In a knife attack at Kunming Rail Station (near the border with Myanmar, on June 1, 2014, 8 knife wielding (4 males, 4 women) terrorists killed 29 people and left another 140 wounded. The Chinese govt said the group belonged to a Uygher separatist group, but if you think about it, Kunming in Yunnan Province (which has a centuries old native Muslim population) is just north of Myanmar, which is right next to Muslim Bangladash. In Myanmar the Buddhist majority is really persecuting the Rohingya Muslim minority, and further down the coast in Thailand, much the same thing is occurring, and further south, you have a Muslim majority in Malaysia which connnects to mainly Muslim Indonesia.

The pattern we seem to see in Islamic terrorism is that some individuals are more susceptible to terrorist propaganda than others. There's about 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, if they were all terrorists how would the world deal with that.

Everywhere you go in China, you can see people who (by their dress) identify as Muslim. In Shanghai there used to be a whole street of Uyghur Muslim Restaurants, with breakfast food stalls in the morning. I used to like buying a small loaf of of their bread for breakfast. The whole neighbourhood has been re-developed so they've now gone, but its not hard to find ethnic Uyghur food stalls in various places.

There have been Muslims in China for a 1000 + years ), so the government(s) have some experience in dealing with any problems. I think piks that the Shanghaiist published today illustrate that it is possible to separate the 'wheat from the chaff,' and it gives me some confidence that the Australian government's policies are more positive than the confrontational approach advocated by a certain newly elected senator.

2

Muslims Worshipping in China. (Not intended to provoke, but to inform)

by fulltimestudent in

the shanghaiist ( media outlet in shanghai owned by the new york based gothamist) published some of the 3000 images taken by a beijing born photographer, lee jian, lee grew up in a muslim family and in 2013 set out to photograph muslim communities across china, covering mosques in henan, hebei, ningxia, jilin, liaoning, shanxi and hebei.. members of a family sit together in the niujie mosque in beijing on the first day of ramadan.. .

a little girl reads the koran in chaoyang mosque, beijing.. .

a gathering at east xiguan mosque.. .

fulltimestudent

The Shanghaiist ( media outlet in Shanghai owned by the New York based Gothamist) published some of the 3000 images taken by a Beijing born photographer, Lee Jian, Lee grew up in a Muslim family and in 2013 set out to photograph Muslim communities across China, covering mosques in Henan, Hebei, Ningxia, Jilin, Liaoning, Shanxi and Hebei.

Members of a family sit together in the Niujie Mosque in Beijing on the first day of Ramadan.

Eid al-Fitr.jpg

A little girl reads the Koran in Chaoyang mosque, Beijing.

Eid al-Fitr9.jpg

A gathering at East Xiguan Mosque.

Eid al-Fitr13.jpg

How many Muslims are there in China? A 2009 study done by the USA based Pew Research Center, based on China's own census, concluded there are 21,667,000 Muslims in China, accounting for 1.6% of the total population.

3

Interesting times-does anyone speak for rational debate anymore?

by fulltimestudent in

australia's coming to the end of a long election campaign, marked as usual by mistruths and half-truths by both of the main contenders for government.

i read today of d. trump's promises to bring back us industry and then saw this clinton tweet:.

trump has some interesting things to say, but why does he try to con some of the poorer people in the usa, in this way?

fulltimestudent

Australia's coming to the end of a long election campaign, marked as usual by mistruths and half-truths by both of the main contenders for government.

And in the USA - is it different?

I read today of D. Trump's promises to bring back US industry and then saw this Clinton tweet:

Trump has some interesting things to say, but why does he try to con some of the poorer people in the USA, in this way? Promising something that he is unlikely to be able to deliver. Is he just acting as though he was taking over some badly run business with fake promises to the shareholders.

What he's saying now (about out-sourcing) he defended in 2005, according to a report in a newspaper here.

Quote: in 2005, blogging on a website associated with his now defunct Trump University, he said:

"We hear terrible things about outsourcing jobs – how sending work outside of our companies is contributing to the demise of American businesses. But in this instance I have to take the unpopular stance that it's not always a terrible thing."

He seems to have demonstrated his faith in out-sourcing as a way to make money by buying shirts made with cheap labour in Bangladash and selling them in the USA.

The same newspaper article commented:

"Trump's offering is outlandish – the historical reality is that US manufacturing jobs peaked at 38 per cent of all jobs around World War II and today they represent just 8.5 per cent of the total. It's a cruel pipe-dream to promise to bring back those jobs in those numbers."

That newspaper article can be accessed here: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/world/trump-dumps-on-free-trades-rape-of-our-country-in-pennsylvania-address-20160629-gpujwc.html

Does Trump really stand for anything, except what he may gain as President of the USA?

18

The Divine Son of God, God Incarnate, Lord, Redeemer, and Saviour of the World

by Doug Mason in

before jesus was born or even if he had never existed—another human being was already proclaimed son of god and, indeed, god incarnate within the same first common-era century and within the same mediterranean world.

in fact, almost all the sacred terms and solemn titles that we might think of as christian creations or even pauline inventions were already associated with caesar augustus, the first undisputed ruler of the roman empire, from 31 bce to 14 ce.. augustus was divine, son of god, god, and god from god.

he was lord, liberator, redeemer, and savior of the world—not just of italy or the mediterranean, mind you, but of the entire inhabited earth.

fulltimestudent

Half banana: "a deliberate syncretism or fusing of all pagan belief into the catholic or universal faith..."

Wow! H.b.- " All pagan belief" incorporated into early church belief? That's a very difficult position to maintain, I cannot think of any studies that I've been exposed to that would argue that. Emotively, I'd love to think so, but taking an intellectually honest position, I just could not agree.

I think the general situation is better described if we acknowledge that second temple Judaism reflected its Mediterranean/west Asian cultural milieu and the Jewish sect that grew into early Christianity therefore also reflected the same mileu.

Concerning Helena, we have to acknowledge her influence, and Likely her influence has been less studied that it deserves. Sometimes that's because it may be difficult to identify that influence.

And, that's also the case in the other two people that likely had an influence on Constantine. They are Lactantius and Ossius (Hosius), of these two men, Ossius is likely to have been the greatest influence. Ossius had been elected as Bishop in the see of Cordova (Spain) circa 295 CE, and is first mentioned in one of Constantine's official documents in 313 CE. From that document we see that he had become part of Constantine's retinue. Most importantly, while Constantine opened the first session of the Council of Nicea, he (Constantine) then withdrew and Ossius presided for the the remainder of the sessions. We know a lot about them, but as far as their influence on Constantine, very little.

9

A Bright Future with Stephen Lett, Chiangmai Special Convention, Nov., 6-8, 2015, Thailand.

by oppostate in

with stephen lett???!!!

a bright future with stephen lett???.

a bright future with stephen lett, chjiangmai special convention, nov., 6-8, 2015, thailand..

fulltimestudent

Wikipedia says the number of JWs in Thailand is about 4000. Jeeez, i remember about 3000, twenty five years ago when I was still in. Doesn't seem much growth.

62

How do you deal with depression?

by BlackWolf in

jw
friends

i'm currently going through a bout of depression and my eating disorder has gotten worse.

ever since my parents actually told me that they are going to kick me out when i turn 18 i've felt kind of hopeless about my life.

my parents won't take me to the doctor because the psychiatrists won't have my "best interests" aka jw crap in mind, because really that's the root of all my problems.. i'm wondering if any of you guys have any advice with dealing with depression?

fulltimestudent

BlackWolf : Thanks everyone, I'm going to try to stay more positive.

That's it kiddo!

The best revenge on the bastards is to have a good life, whey they want you to have a bad life (if you leave).

Call on your survival instincts! At the worst moments that befall us - that's all any of us have. There are still millions far worse off that yourself, and the instinct to survive is all that they have.

47

The 1975 Generation---are they still around?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i was raised as a jw and 1975 expectations were pretty intense.

as i recall, most people did not leave after the failed expectations but many s l o w e d down.

now, i think most of the 1975 witnesses are gone or barely in.. is the older generation still around in the kingdom halls or are they much gone?.

fulltimestudent

Read with a cynical smile, not so much at the fact that it all happened, as led by the WTS and upper levels of 'the society,' but at the willingness of those who stayed to prevaricate and deny that the WTS ever taught that the end was coming in '75.