i just can't understand jw beliefs so i thought i'd try to get some simple yes/no answers.
this is a genuine effort to understand and i hope nobody takes it as an insult.
hope some of you folks don't mind spending a bit of time on this.
The Way calls it 'fair game'
I looked up the expression "fair game," and didn't see it associated with "the Way." However, I did see the expression associated with scientologists. Anyone who critices them is considered "fair game," and can be harassed, lied to, tricked, etc. How does "the Way" use this expression? I had never heard of the "the Way," but I thought it was interesting to see how they also claim to be simply "studying the Bible" like JW's when they come to the doorstep.
when i ask my jw friend if she has read various classic books, she says, "i don't like to read.
" however, she of course reads all the wt stuff.
i don't know too many jw's, but the ones i have seen in the meetings seem mostly uneducated and, even when speaking from the platform, seem almost illiterate - that is, unable to pronounce certain words even in the wt literature.
It sounds like it varies. I was just wondering b/c I would think general reading would broaden a person's perspective enough to pick up on the WT style of writing. Even if people are readers, I guess they can still find ways of rationalizing the WT to themselves. My friend did read 1984 a long time ago, way before studying with JW's, and somehow she even refers to it to back up the WT stuff, not the other way around. I suggested she read it again, but now she "doesn't like to read." I figured the reference to 1984 might have been used during her indoctrination to say, "see, look how bad the world is." I have noticed my "teacher" tries to find things in my life to pull from to support the WT worldview.
when i ask my jw friend if she has read various classic books, she says, "i don't like to read.
" however, she of course reads all the wt stuff.
i don't know too many jw's, but the ones i have seen in the meetings seem mostly uneducated and, even when speaking from the platform, seem almost illiterate - that is, unable to pronounce certain words even in the wt literature.
When I ask my JW friend if she has read various classic books, she says, "I don't like to read." However, she of course reads all the WT stuff. I don't know too many JW's, but the ones I have seen in the meetings seem mostly uneducated and, even when speaking from the platform, seem almost illiterate - that is, unable to pronounce certain words even in the WT literature. Does the Society discourage general reading (like novels, classics, etc.), or could it just be my friend's personal preference and I happen to be in an uneducated KH?
could someone refer me to some wt articles explaining that all non-wt information sources are controlled by satan?
i've read that they think this, and it fits with their us & them mentality, but i would like to see it in writing..
Thanks for that KM and those quotes about Satan controlling the media. In particular, the KM article is the kind of thing I was looking for. It even has the indirect, suggestive language I have been noticing in their literature. I can see how this leads to individual JW's not bothering to check outside sources. I imagine for many of you this is a given in JW culture, but being an outsider, it is alien to my thinking, and I'm trying to be clear that this is really how they teach their followers to "study." I wonder how JW's can learn anything about the world. Even if you only go by the Bible, at some point you have to read it. As soon as you try to read it, you have to have it translated into your own language. As soon as you are dealing with a translation, you are in the realm of scholarship in many fields: history, archaeology, etc. To limit all of your historical information to be filtered through one source is the ultimate in bias. Logically, this means JW's are placing the bias of the WT over an objective study of anything. To be fair, my JW "teacher" is willing to consider little word studies where we compare definitions from Greek/Hebrew dictionaries. However, he always favors the NWT rendering showing that somewhere in the definition, the NWT rendering -can- be found. Similarly, if I read out of a Bible commentary other than the Insight books, he politely listens, but I can tell he thinks it's a waste of time to consider anything other than WT-generated material.
Oh, btw Black Sheep, my female JW friend is not my wife. She is someone I have known for several years because we have some common interests. I'll check if she has the CD. I wish I could get ahold of one to search through myself.
could someone refer me to some wt articles explaining that all non-wt information sources are controlled by satan?
i've read that they think this, and it fits with their us & them mentality, but i would like to see it in writing..
Thanks for those current articles. I read over the Jan & Feb 2011 from jw.org. It looks mostly like the typical vices from Satan that Christians are supposed to avoid - with a WT twist of course. I was more looking for statements from the WT supporting the mentality that you should only read their reference material such as Insight on the Scriptures, etc. rather than using secular or "worldly" sources. The JW's I'm talking to seem to only do "research" using Insight on the Scriptures or Reasoning From the Scriptures and just tell me whatever those books say about Bible topics. I'm wondering if this is the result of a specific directive from the Society to avoid scholarly material outside of WT books, or if they just naturally gravitate toward their own material.
could someone refer me to some wt articles explaining that all non-wt information sources are controlled by satan?
i've read that they think this, and it fits with their us & them mentality, but i would like to see it in writing..
Could someone refer me to some WT articles explaining that all non-WT information sources are controlled by Satan? I've read that they think this, and it fits with their us & them mentality, but I would like to see it in writing.
i just finished reading the 9/15/2010 wt study edition article for nov 8-14, and the last few sentences of paragraph 7 on page 18 jumped out at me.
referring to the "one association" which i assume means the jw organization, the author says "... where else can we turn?
nowhere else can we hear the sayings of everlasting life.
She was not born into it. She was baptized in 2003. I have been asking her what happened, i.e. how do you go from being interested in the Bible, to believing you can only hear the sayings of everlasting life from a specific group? She hasn't told me the answer. She only told me that she was going through a rough time coming out of an abusive relationship. A friend who was a DA who still believed the doctrine but felt he couldn't live up to it, pulled out the Bible, started "teaching" her, and eventually turned her over to a "sister." She had never looked into the Bible before and thought she was really studying it because of all the impressive maps, archaeology photos, "scholarly" quotes, etc. It's obvious to me that she was being indoctrinated with carefully selected information and wording, but she is convinced that studying with JW's is equivalent to studying the Bible. She uses them synonymously all the time which gives me the creeps. When I asked her what happened once she started "studying," she just said "as my love for Jehovah grew, I naturally wanted to start preaching."
One of my main questions is this: what basis does the WT Society have for claiming to have a monopoly on the sayings of everlasting life? I'm assuming they use John 6:68 because they believe they have information from Jesus beyond the Bible, i.e. no-one can know the sayings of everlasting life without consulting the WT Society, but how do they convince their followers of such a thing? They must have some kind of "logic" that convinces people. Can someone please enlighten me on how they find a way to make it seem plausible? I think Cold Steel gave a possible explanation - process of elimination - all other Bible-based groups have flaws in their doctrine. However, the WT Society admits they are not perfect either, so what's the difference between them and any other people sincerely attempting to understand/apply the Bible? Is the Society accusing everyone else of being insincere? Is the WT Society's -sincerity- the reason why Jesus supposedly approved them over everyone else in 1918-19? Jesus' choice, assuming he was even making one, couldn't have been based on their doctrine because they admit it was flawed at the time. So what do they say his choice was based on?
i just finished reading the 9/15/2010 wt study edition article for nov 8-14, and the last few sentences of paragraph 7 on page 18 jumped out at me.
referring to the "one association" which i assume means the jw organization, the author says "... where else can we turn?
nowhere else can we hear the sayings of everlasting life.
WTWizard mentioned something that must be difficult for individual JW's: even if they can show that a WT doctrine is unsound Biblically, they have to go along with it and wait for the organization to fix it. Can someone please refer me to some WT articles expressing this idea? I think it has bearing on the "To whom (by which they mean 'what organization') shall we go?" mentality. It almost has a circular quality to it.
Also, slightly OT, but related to their tactics. I sit in the meetings and watch them open these other books like the OD book, the Benefit From Theocratic Ministry book, and the KM handouts. My "teacher" is exhorting me to attend meetings supposedly so I can "learn about the organization." So I asked him, "Hey can I read these other books you all use, so I too can learn about the organization?" The answer was a flat out "No." Of course I asked "why?" He said, "you're not ready." Of course I asked, "how do you know what I'm ready to read? Do you consider yourself to be in a parental role?" He admitted that is how the Society views it, which was quite a revelation to me since their "Bible study" offer at the doorstep tells the householder nothing about entering into a child-parent relationship. Then he asked me to please stop asking for the other books because he can't give them to me, or even let me borrow them. So, at this point I have found pdf's of the 2005 OD book as well as the 1991 Pay Attention book, but I can't seem to find a pdf of the Benefit book. Can someone help me find it? I am eager to read it because the other two have shed a lot of light on what is really happening with this "Bible study."
i just finished reading the 9/15/2010 wt study edition article for nov 8-14, and the last few sentences of paragraph 7 on page 18 jumped out at me.
referring to the "one association" which i assume means the jw organization, the author says "... where else can we turn?
nowhere else can we hear the sayings of everlasting life.
Wow! Thank you Black Sheep for that article. I guess that answers my question. If I understand that article correctly, the JW organization is claiming to have statements from the Lord in addition to what is in the Bible. Therefore, the current WT study article is consistent with the idea that -only they- have the sayings of everlasting life, no-one else. Even though anyone can read the Bible, which includes the sayings of Jesus, whom Peter was speaking to in the verse they cite (John 6:68), somehow reading the sayings of Jesus in the Bible is not enough to hear the sayings of everlasting life. Somehow, the sayings of everlasting life only come through the JW organization. It would have been nice if they cited a verse to support this claim.
Also, thanks to others for welcoming me. Sorry to just barge in with a question without introducing myself. I was trying to figure out how to put up a bio, but I don't see a way to change my "settings." So, at risk of going off-topic, here is some of my background:
I have a friend, whom I admire very much, who is a JW. Over the years, we didn't really talk about it, but she mentioned the Bible once in a while. About a year ago we started talking about it more. She also invited me to a couple of meetings. All it took was a couple meetings and I felt like something weird was going on. One of the elders asked me who I was "studying" with. Silly me, I thought we were speaking the same form of English. I pointed to my friend since we had been discussing various Bible passages, etc., and I figured we were "studying" the Bible. She got nervous and tried to explain to the elder that we really weren't "studying" the Bible. He looked at her and said, "you have to turn him over." I didn't know what was going on, and I didn't realize the fact that she is female and I am male was an issue. I also didn't realize the word "study" is a loaded term in JW language.
Since I still wanted to try to understand my friend's perspective, I agreed to be "turned over" and do a "Bible study" with total strangers. There is a KH closer to my home than the one my friend attends, and of course the "brother" assigned to "teach" me is in my vicinity, so I have been effectively separated from having any reason to discuss the Bible with my friend. I email her sometimes, and she just says I can ask my Bible "teacher" about it. The study is going very slowly because I ask a lot of questions. The "brothers" keep questioning my motives, and I keep repeating that I simply want to hear the message they are conveying to the world and evaluate what I think of it.
So far, this has been one of the most bizarre and eye-opening experiences of my life. Their use of language is really blowing my mind, and I am learning what to watch out for in other areas of life such as in political propaganda, speeches, advertising, etc. The use of vagueries and manipulation of emotion is so outstanding to me that sometimes when I return home from meetings, I feel like I need to take a shower to wash it off. It's like there's a haze over everything. So weird. This is why I finally decided to post a question to this board. I feel as though the literature and JW's themselves are not being up front with me about what they believe. As I read the literature, I want to say, "Ok Mr. anonymous author, out with it. Tell me clearly what you are saying. Enough with the vague language already." I want to be able to have intelligent discussions with my friend about her worldview and help her to think clearly about her beliefs. I respect people's choices to believe certain things, but I hate to see people being manipulated with language to the point where their thinking is garbled.
I hope to learn more from all of you as well as possibly contribute thoughts that may be helpful to others.
i just finished reading the 9/15/2010 wt study edition article for nov 8-14, and the last few sentences of paragraph 7 on page 18 jumped out at me.
referring to the "one association" which i assume means the jw organization, the author says "... where else can we turn?
nowhere else can we hear the sayings of everlasting life.
I just finished reading the 9/15/2010 WT study edition article for Nov 8-14, and the last few sentences of paragraph 7 on page 18 jumped out at me. Referring to the "one association" which I assume means the JW organization, the author says "... where else can we turn? Nowhere else can we hear the sayings of everlasting life. -- John 6:68"
Am I correct in my assumption that by the "one association" the author means specifically the group known as "Jehovah's Witnesses" who are organized and directed by a group of men known as the "Governing Body" with office headquarters in the "Watchtower" building in Brooklyn, and who publish their statements through the nonprofit corporation called the Watchtower Society? I just want to make sure who exactly the author is talking about because he/she didn't make clear who the "one association" is, not to me anyway. Maybe a more seasoned WT reader would know who the author is talking about, but I wanted to make sure.
Assuming the author is specifically referring to the JW organization, I am not sure why he/she cites John 6:68 to support the claim that "nowhere else" can a person hear the sayings of everlasting life. John 6:68 says the following:
"Simon Peter answered him: 'Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life;"
Peter is speaking to the person, Jesus, whereas the WT author is referring to the JW organization. The reason I don't understand the WT author's statement is that the sayings of Jesus are publicly available and have been for a long time in the Bible. If the "sayings of everlasting life" the author refers to are limited to the sayings contained in the Bible, then anyone with access to a library or the internet can hear these sayings regardless of whether they have any encounter at all with the JW organization. Thus, the author's statement that "nowhere else can we hear the sayings of everlasting life" is simply false.
On the other hand, if by "sayings of everlasting life" the author is referring to extra sayings in addition to the sayings contained in the Bible, then the statement would be "true," or at least consistent with the author's perspective. This leads to a basic question I have about the author's perspective: Do JW's believe their organization possesses extra sayings that no-one can hear unless they talk to JW's?
