InterestedOne

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Posts by InterestedOne

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  46

  The Watchtower, Christianity and Cultism

  by Nickolas in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  if you want to upset a jehovah's witness, refer to the watchtower as a sect.

  if you really want to upset a jehovah's witness, refer to the watchtower as a cult.

  that's pretty much a conversation stopper.. the watchtower denigrates the rest of christianity.

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  InterestedOne

  So, the question I have to ask myself is, if the Watchtower is a cult, as so many people in here believe, is Christianity itself a cult?

  I've checked out a few ex-Christian forums, and I see people who are exiting Christianity referring to it as a cult. As an ex-Christian, I find myself also thinking of it that way. I recall an episode of "The Atheist Experience"

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OCYhDFc42I

  where at 00:50 Jeff Dee has a brief exchange with the Christian caller and says "what's wrong with you?"

  I think Jeff's sentiments sum up one reason why I also tend to think of Christianity as a cult.
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  115

  How should I respond to a JW friend? (Australia)

  by summerinvincible in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  sorry if this isn't the right place to post this - brand new member here.. i recently caught up with an old friend who is a jw.

  she's been witnessing to me, and i've accepted all her handouts because i don't want to hurt her feelings.

  but now she's asking me for my "thoughts" about what i've read so far.

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  InterestedOne

  Wow summerinvincible, you sound like me, and your friend sounds like my JW friend. Even the confusing grammar in her response is the same (like "as to" and "but that"). I have often wondered if the confusing grammar is intentional. It puts me in a position of having to ask her to clarify the sentence. Then, with the back and forth, it makes me out to be the bad guy - like I'm being overly analytical or "nit picking." Although I have failed many times in the way I have interacted with my JW friend, as I read your friend's reponse I was thinking something similar to what Black Sheep said - what are the "a few things" that the Bible "prophesied" would be invisible. Where does the Bible specifically say these things would be invisible?

  However, when I ask questions like that of my JW friend, I usually receive a bombardment of nonsense and more confusing grammar that I find difficult to untangle. It might be interesting to try and get a clear answer though. I could envision her responding in a way that wanders away from the invisible part, so try to keep her on that if she doesn't provide you with a satisfying specific answer.
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  77

  Association: Am i being lied to?

  by roxanesophia in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i don't hesitate to bring up with the girl i study with, my criticisms of the religion, and one of those is the association.

  i keep reading on here that jw's don't make friends outside the cult, and this is what i used as an excuse for stepping further away from being baptized.

  she tells me it's not true, and they can have what ever friends they want.

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  InterestedOne

  Left from my perspective or their actual left (right from my perspective)?
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  77

  Association: Am i being lied to?

  by roxanesophia in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i don't hesitate to bring up with the girl i study with, my criticisms of the religion, and one of those is the association.

  i keep reading on here that jw's don't make friends outside the cult, and this is what i used as an excuse for stepping further away from being baptized.

  she tells me it's not true, and they can have what ever friends they want.

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  InterestedOne

  Ooh. Here's a good one. My JW friend gets to have her cake & eat it too with the issue of "friends." She goes ahead and uses the word "friends" all day long when referring to worldly acquaintances. This way people mistakenly think she is their friend, and she certainly accepts favors from them, etc. However, if you listen carefully, whenever she refers to something she is doing with her fellow JW's, she says she's getting together with some of her "best friends." Ack! She's got the average person fooled who doesn't know what she really thinks of them. So there you go roxanesophia, you can have all the worldly "friends" you want. But the JW's are your "best friends."
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  77

  Association: Am i being lied to?

  by roxanesophia in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i don't hesitate to bring up with the girl i study with, my criticisms of the religion, and one of those is the association.

  i keep reading on here that jw's don't make friends outside the cult, and this is what i used as an excuse for stepping further away from being baptized.

  she tells me it's not true, and they can have what ever friends they want.

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  InterestedOne

  I can't help you with the real truth since I'm an outsider, but when I ask my JW friend about this kind of thing, she says "you can do what you want." However, something felt fishy about it. I think they're hiding something.
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  103

  How the WTBTS creates atheists

  by Nickolas in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i am an atheist.

  i arrived at this juncture in my life despite not wanting to.

  when i first met the witnesses at 22 i was a seeker looking for answers to the question of life - in other words, prime cult target material.

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  InterestedOne

  rebel8 - What if she stated it like this:

  Premise 1: If there is a God, the WT is God's org.

  Premise 2: The WT is not God's org

  Conclusion: There is no God

  Wouldn't that be a valid argument?
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  35

  How might one convince a Jehovah's Witness to read "Crisis of Conscience?"

  by Nickolas in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'm well into the book, can't put it down, it is just so fascinating and so utterly devastating to the credibility of the wtbts.

  i suspect that any jehovah's witness who has a modicum of self respect and intelligence could not but finish the book a step or more on the path to emancipation from this awful, people destroying religion.. i really want my wife to read this book but i anticipate that she will refuse on the basis of it having been banned by the society as the worst kind of apostate literature.

  i am genuinely saddened that she will not grant me the same kind of trust and respect she gives so lovingly to her watchtower masters and i will doubtless say this to her when she turns down my invitation.

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  InterestedOne

  Nickolas wrote:

  I am sure your study conductor's wife is right. But if you are a loyal wife and your husband is a child molester and philanderer then you are a fool for not wanting to know about it.

  I agree, and this is a key distinction. I think a JW assumes that anything the book might bring up couldn't be as bad as being a child molester, etc. I think this is where you would need to evaluate if the specific accusations in the book are severe enough to warrant leaving, and if there is proof to back up the accusations. It's like a wife having to decide if her husband's negatives are bad enough to leave him over. Is there something bad enough in the book that even a "wife" would leave her husband over?

  Of course in the case of Ray Franz, he didn't even leave. They kicked him out. However, a JW will assume that the leaders must have had a good reason to kick him out. He must have effectively "left" the org by violating one of Jehovah's laws, and the leaders were just keeping the org clean. A JW has to assume this because JC's are confidential, so noone would really know what happened. For some reason, they trust that the org got it right. They then assume if the DF'd person wrote a book, it is full of lies cleverly worded to deceive the faithful - so don't even read it b/c you might be fooled by it.
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  35

  How might one convince a Jehovah's Witness to read "Crisis of Conscience?"

  by Nickolas in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'm well into the book, can't put it down, it is just so fascinating and so utterly devastating to the credibility of the wtbts.

  i suspect that any jehovah's witness who has a modicum of self respect and intelligence could not but finish the book a step or more on the path to emancipation from this awful, people destroying religion.. i really want my wife to read this book but i anticipate that she will refuse on the basis of it having been banned by the society as the worst kind of apostate literature.

  i am genuinely saddened that she will not grant me the same kind of trust and respect she gives so lovingly to her watchtower masters and i will doubtless say this to her when she turns down my invitation.

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  InterestedOne

  Nick - I agree that truth is not her first priority. I think her first priority is the idea of unity and loyalty to the group. When I told her that the book was written by a man who was not only a GB member but also played a key role in developing the JW encyclopedia "Aid to Bible Understanding" that became the two-volume set that she looks things up in, "Insight on the Scriptures," she said there were teachers in the 1st Century who taught the "truth" at first but strayed from the organization. She said Paul warns to stay away from them, and do not pay attention to what they say. She assumes the book is just muckraking, stirring up trouble, bad energy, and causing divisions, even if it is written by someone who used to be at the top level of the hierarchy. As you pointed out, at the end of the day, she wants to blindly accept what she is told to believe because she feels loyalty to this particular group is her first priority. They did something to gain her trust, and I don't know what it is.

  She even said, "even if they're wrong, I would still want to be part of this organization." I wonder if your wife feels this way. When I point out that she is being loyal to an organization, she says no, not really, because her loyalty is really to the Bible. She feels that the org is following the Bible more closely than any other org, even if they are wrong in some aspects. If I point out problems with their Bible interpretation, she says she will trust their interpretation and wait for them to clear it up. She has somehow become convinced that this group is more sincere in their efforts to understand and follow the Bible than anyone else. Maybe it's their supposed "sincerity" that binds her to them.

  My study conductor's wife illustrated it like a marriage. She said if you are a loyal wife, you are going to remain tied to your husband even if he has made and still makes mistakes. You are also not going to read disparaging material about him, even if it is true. She said the relationship between a baptized JW and the org is kind of like that.
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  35

  How might one convince a Jehovah's Witness to read "Crisis of Conscience?"

  by Nickolas in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'm well into the book, can't put it down, it is just so fascinating and so utterly devastating to the credibility of the wtbts.

  i suspect that any jehovah's witness who has a modicum of self respect and intelligence could not but finish the book a step or more on the path to emancipation from this awful, people destroying religion.. i really want my wife to read this book but i anticipate that she will refuse on the basis of it having been banned by the society as the worst kind of apostate literature.

  i am genuinely saddened that she will not grant me the same kind of trust and respect she gives so lovingly to her watchtower masters and i will doubtless say this to her when she turns down my invitation.

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  InterestedOne

  Nick, for what it's worth, below is a response from my female JW friend when I suggested CoC. From what I can gather from her response, she doesn't put any stock in the "used car salesman" reasoning. It's not important to her. There is something that binds her to the org. Here is what she said:

  Do these ex-Witnesses converge on their scriptural disagreements? or are they at odds with each other? have they formed their own church, or have they joined a church? surely, if they consider themselves truth-seekers in line with the scriptures, then they must have some special insight that the society does not have....are they doing the work that Jesus commissioned as outlined in the Bible? Are they preparing for Jehovah's day?
  To me, its not about people's opinions, its about learning Bible Truth. Jesus said about Jehovah's word: "Your Word is Truth" (John 17:17)....also, that Truth will set us free from human opinions and disagreements and just general bad energy, which is what i consider the apostate propaganda. Apostates have been at it since the beginning...its all over the scriptures. Jehovah gives us Insight on how to spot them. its those weeds that Jesus was talking about. you will know them by their actions...
  
  i can understand your reasoning for wanting to get a "well rounded view" of the organization. its logical. i guess you have to sort out what is most important to you...

  Perhaps your wife has similar mental processes that keep her bound to the org. I am still bewildered by it and am at a loss.
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  12

  We Do Not Know...

  by Marvin Shilmer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  today i uploaded a new article to my blog that underscores an admission by watchtower that in reality it does not know the people it claims to represents, and has no way of knowing.

  my article is titled we do not know... and is available at: http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com/2011/05/we-do-not-know.html.

  marvin shilmer.

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  InterestedOne

  When I read the part of the sentence in the WT where they say they do not need to know, I asked myself why they would say they don't need to know. I guess they would say that the supposed 1st Century Governing Body did not know each and every one of the anointed Christians at that time, so they see no reason to know them now.