aqwsed12345

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  57

  How Did Watchtower Sell the "Jonadab" Concept ?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  simply put; gullible people were told if they chose life on earth instead of heaven, they wouldn't have to die.

  that's how they sold it.

  the watchtower lied to people in the 1920 booklet and convention series titled "millions now living will never die!

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  aqwsed12345

  @Vanderhoven7

  Your concern is rooted in a perfectly Catholic instinct: we may never relativize the deity of Christ or the dogma extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. If Vatican II had done so, it would indeed have ruptured the deposit of faith. The Council, read in the only manner a Catholic may read any council—within the living continuity of previous definitions—did no such thing.

  When Lumen gentium 16 and Nostra aetate 3 say that Muslims “together with us adore the one, merciful God,” the Council is describing the objective reference of Islamic prayer, not canonising its subjective adequacy. The phrase echoes Pius XI’s Mit Brennender Sorge (1937), which praised the “one, true, living God” acknowledged by “adorers of Allah,” and it rests on a distinction found already in the Fathers and in Aquinas: a person can intend to worship the Creator while remaining gravely in error about His inner life. For that reason the Council immediately adds that Muslims “do not acknowledge Jesus as God.” To recognise a fragment of truth is not to canonise the whole; it merely states the obvious philosophical fact that “God” in Arabic, Greek or Latin denotes the same uncreated First Cause, however distorted the adorers’ concept may be.

  The citation of the Council’s words regarding Muslims—“together with us adore the one, merciful God”—does not, and never did, mean that Islam or any non-Christian religion is salvific in itself, nor that such worship is acceptable to God in the sense that it possesses the fullness of truth or is salvific apart from Christ and His Church. The Council’s expression is a limited, philosophical acknowledgment of the intention behind Islamic worship—not an approbation of Islam as a religion or a negation of dogma.

  The Council nowhere denies that obstinate rejection of the Trinity destroys the virtue of faith. On the contrary, it repeats Trent’s teaching that faith is supernatural assent to all that God reveals (DV 5, LG 14). It repeats Pius XII’s doctrine that those who know the Church to be necessary and refuse to enter it cannot be saved (LG 14; cf. Mystici Corporis 30). It re-affirms that “all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is His Body” (LG 14, AG 7). What it adds is a restatement, in the language of the twentieth century, of Pius IX’s and Pius XII’s insistence that inculpable ignorance does not bind a man to an impossible duty (DH 14; GS 22; Suprema haec sacra). If a Muslim dies rejecting the Trinity with full light and full consent, he is lost; if he has never grasped the Gospel through no fault of his own, the Holy Spirit can impart the grace of Christ in a hidden way and lead him to a salvific act of faith before death. That possibility is not a “loophole” invented in 1965; it is the ordinary magisterium from St Thomas (ST II-II 2, a.7) to the Holy Office letter of 1949.

  Thus Vatican II does teach that outside the Church “there is no salvation”—understanding the axiom exactly as the 1949 Holy Office explained: membership can be in re (actual) or in voto (by an implicit or explicit desire animated by charity). What it refuses to do is to catalogue which individuals are damned; such judgments belong to God alone. But it leaves no doubt that the ordinary means of salvation is baptismal incorporation into the visible Catholic communion, nourished by the sacraments and the profession of the Catholic faith, and that every human being must ultimately be gathered into that communion or perish.

  The root of your anxiety seems to be the worry that Vatican II and subsequent Catholic teaching have somehow nullified the axiom extra Ecclesiam nulla salus—outside the Church there is no salvation. This is a false dichotomy. The Church, faithful to Christ’s mandate, has always maintained that all salvation comes through Christ the Lord and is applied through His Mystical Body, the Church. This doctrine is not up for revision; it is de fide and was reaffirmed at Vatican II and after, including in the Catechism and magisterial documents such as Dominus Iesus.

  The Council does not, as you imply, announce to Muslims or to anyone else that their religion is salvific or pleasing to God in itself. Nor does it make ambiguous the fate of those who knowingly reject the central mysteries of the faith. Rather, it follows the classic distinction articulated by St. Thomas Aquinas and reiterated by Popes and Councils throughout history: God’s grace is not limited by visible boundaries, but His ordinary means of salvation is the Church and her sacraments. All who are saved are saved only by the merits of Christ and through incorporation—whether explicit or implicit—into His Body, the Church. Vatican II explicitly reaffirms this: “Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, [the Council] teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation” (Lumen Gentium 14).

  Far from encouraging Muslims to rest content, the Council explicitly mandates the Church to preach Christ to them “openly and unambiguously” (AG 7, 11). Its recognition of a fragmentary truth in Islam is the very premise of evangelisation: missionaries can build on what nature and prevenient grace have preserved, so as to bring the nations to “the obedience of faith” (Rom 1:5). Any reading of Vatican II that dilutes that missionary imperative is a hermeneutic of rupture, not of continuity, and must be rejected as contrary to both the letter and the spirit—indeed the mens—of the Council.

  What then of the Council’s words on Muslims? The phrase “together with us they adore the one God” is not a statement about salvific sufficiency, but about the object—however imperfectly grasped—of their worship. The Church has always acknowledged, for instance, that the pagan philosophers could know something of the one Creator, yet this did not absolve them of the need for Christ and the Church. Vatican II does not teach, nor does any authoritative Catholic magisterial document, that Muslims or anyone else can be saved by remaining outside the Church with full knowledge and consent. In fact, the very same section of Lumen Gentium immediately reasserts: “Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or remain in it, could not be saved.” (LG 14, echoing Cantate Domino of Florence, and the 1949 Holy Office letter.)

  It is essential here to read Lumen Gentium 16 and Nostra Aetate in continuity with this dogmatic tradition, as Pope Benedict XVI forcefully reminded the Church. The Council, pastoral in tone but dogmatic in foundation, does not teach that belief in the Trinity, the deity of Christ, or the sacramental economy are optional. The salvation of those “outside” is always by way of Christ and the Church—never by way of another religion as such. If a soul outside visible Catholic unity is saved, it is through an implicit desire for the truth and for God’s will (what St. Thomas calls the “baptism of desire”), never by stubborn adherence to error or formal rejection of Christ’s divinity or the Trinity.

  Moreover, to accuse the Council or Catholics faithful to her of religious indifferentism is to misunderstand both the letter and the spirit of the Council. Vatican II does not say Muslims are saved by Islam, but rather that they acknowledge the one Creator and that this partial light, if followed sincerely, can dispose them—by God’s prevenient grace—to accept the fullness of revelation when offered. But as St. Thomas makes clear (Summa Theologiae II-II, q. 2, a. 7), those who remain in error out of invincible ignorance are not condemned for what they could not know, but those who “knowingly and obstinately” reject revealed truth are culpable. This is no modern innovation: Pius IX, Pius XII, and the Holy Office (1949) all affirm the same.

  To summarize: Vatican II did not, and could not, abrogate the uniqueness of Christ or the necessity of the Catholic Church for salvation. Its statements about Muslims, Jews, or other non-Christians must be read as recognizing the elements of truth and goodness present wherever they are found—always for the sake of leading souls to Christ, never as an endorsement of error or a new soteriology. The fullness of salvation is found only in the Catholic Church, and anyone saved is saved by the merits of Christ, through His Body, whether they know it or not. Once the truth is known, it must be embraced or salvation is imperiled.

  So, to your direct question: yes, the Catholic Church still teaches that there is no salvation outside her; yes, rejection of the Trinity with sufficient knowledge is mortally sinful and, if unrepented, damns the soul; and no, Vatican II did not compromise those truths. It merely restated the perennial principle that God’s grace can reach a man before the sacrament does, while insisting more urgently than ever that the sacrament, the Creed and the visible communion of Peter remain the divinely willed, ordinarily necessary path to eternal life.

  The Church warns that deliberate rejection of revealed truth excludes from salvation, but she also professes that God’s mercy can reach souls in ways known only to Him—never bypassing Christ or the Church, but sometimes applying their saving power outside visible bounds. This is not modernist compromise, but the perennial doctrine of the Fathers and Doctors, confirmed by the magisterium in every age. To claim otherwise is to misread the Council and to sever it from the continuous witness of the Catholic faith.
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  84

  Zechariah 12:10 Corruption in the NWT

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here's a question for those who still support watchtower on this forum.

  why did watchtower leave out the word "me" in zech.

  zechariah 12:10 reads like this: .

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  aqwsed12345

  @peacefulpete

  The crux of the most recent rejoinder is that early Christian authors did not really extend their exegesis of Zechariah 12 beyond the piercing motif; that John’s “paraphrase” does not correspond to any Hebrew form; that the putative “first-person reading” is text-critical quick-sand; and that a Trinitarian appeal to the verse is little more than a reflex of systematic theology. None of those assertions withstands close philological or historical inspection once the full primary-source record is assembled and the best results of textual criticism are allowed to stand in their own right.

  The Masoretic consonantal text of Zech 12:10 reads unambiguously, wĕhibbîtû ʾēlay ʾēt ʾăšer dāqarû—“They shall look to me—ʾet—the one whom they pierced.” To dislodge the first-person ʾēlay one must posit either (i) an unprovable yod/waw confusion, or (ii) a conjectural ellipsis of a second-person object. Neither move is supported by the earliest Jewish witnesses: 4QXIIe (badly frayed but still reflecting the MT word order); the proto-Masoretic scroll Mur88; and the Samaritan recension, all of which confirm ʾēlay. Moreover the three Hebrew witnesses that do read ʾēl āyw (“to him”)—Kennicott 231, De Rossi 12, and British Library Or. 2300—are medieval and explicitly mark the form as a secondary qere. The difficult reading, then, is the original one. No responsible eclectic edition (BHS, BHQ, Tov-Polak, TMT) brackets ʾēlay; the editors rightly label the emendation suspecta indoles.

  The lectio difficilior also explains why every major pre-Hexaplaric Greek tradition rewrites the clause. The Old Greek smooths it away entirely (“they will look on me because they mocked me”) while the three kaige-type revisions (Aquila, Symmachus, proto-Theodotion) each preserve the nota accusativi by translating εἰς ὅν ἐξεκέντησαν. The Fourth Gospel’s citation at Jn 19:37 is verbatim Theodotion—εἰς ὃν ἐξεκέντησαν—precisely the form Colton Moore has isolated as “Zech-θ.” One may debate whether the evangelist translated for himself or consulted a circulating Theodotionic scroll, but the outcome is identical: the form he endorses keeps the accusative pronoun and thus presupposes the same Hebrew syntax that gives us ʾēlay ʾēt.

  Because the evangelist cites the verse at the crucifixion narrative, interprets it Christologically, and treats Jesus as the referent of the divine “me,” he in effect affirms a two-subject reading: the sufferer is God in the person of the incarnate Son, yet the speaker remains YHWH, distinguished from the crowds who look up. Revelation 1:7—again combining Zech 12:10 with Dan 7:13— repeats the same exegesis on an eschatological horizon: the pierced one now comes with clouds, “and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him.” The Apocalypse therefore dismantles the claim that early Christianity ignored the mourning simile; the verbs κόψονται and πενθήσουσιν in Rev 1:7 quote the Septuagint’s lamentation vocabulary from Zech 12:10-14 and apply it to the nations that behold the returning Christ. Justin Dial. 118, Irenaeus Adv. Haer. 4.33.11 and Tertullian Adv. Judaeos 14 all cite the whole tetrad—piercing, looking, mourning, first-born son—in precisely the same theological key, even if a modern searchable text fails to index the lemma “first-born.” Justin writes: “they shall look on him whom they pierced, and they shall beat their breasts as for an only-begotten”; Irenaeus says the nations “shall lament for him as for a beloved son”; Tertullian appeals to the same line when arguing that Messiah is both slain and divine.

  Nor is the theological inference a later Christian superimposition. The Temple Scroll (11Q19) speaks of YHWH’s own keʾēv (pain) over Israel’s apostasy, showing that “pierced deity” language, if jarring, was not impossible in Second-Temple Judaism. The Targumic handling, whether collective-Israel or Messiah-ben-Joseph, is admittedly defensive; but a late Aramaic paraphrase does not override the oldest Hebrew stratum. Rabbinic reluctance to envisage YHWH as wounded is itself evidence that the Masoretic form was embarrassing precisely because it was original. The New Testament, by contrast, provides the only conceptual framework in which the text’s paradox is resolved rather than sidestepped: the One who pours out the Spirit is the same One who is pierced, because the Son who is consubstantial with the Father can suffer in the flesh while remaining the object of Israel’s penitential gaze.

  Finally, the assertion that the Christian appeal to Zech 12:10 depends on “suppressing” the context collapses once the internal logic of Zechariah 12–13 is allowed its say. The pierced figure becomes the fountain that cleanses from sin (13:1), the shepherd struck by YHWH (13:7), yet also the divine warrior who advances against the nations (12:4-9). Unless one multiplies personae indefinitely, the most economical reading is that one agent embraces all three roles. Patristic writers therefore were not cherry-picking a clause; they were tracing an intratextual trajectory whose coherence Christ’s passion and resurrection make intelligible.

  Moore’s article links John’s wording to a proto-Theodotion Greek text. Even granting his thesis, nothing in Theodotion displaces the first-person singular; Theodotion merely renders it more transparently. Consequently Moore’s study undercuts, rather than aids, any attempt to claim that John abandons the Hebrew syntax. His own conclusion—“the prepositional phrase εἰς ὃν ἐξεκέντησαν reads verbatim with Zech-θ”—shows that John follows a version which itself presupposes the MT’s grammar. Thus the textual and translational evidence converge upon the same theological datum: Zechariah foresaw a moment in which Israel would recognise that the God who saves them has been wounded by them, and the New Testament proclaims that this mystery is unveiled when the crucified and risen Jesus, the eternal Word made flesh, is acknowledged as both the pierced One and the giver of the Spirit.

  The rival proposal that we should repunctuate the verse and supply a neuter “it” fails on purely grammatical grounds: Hebrew does not default to an unmarked neuter, and when the prophet wants to lament an abstract calamity he does so explicitly (e.g., Jer 4:19-20). The masculine pronoun in v. 10 is therefore deliberate, and its antecedent cannot be a vague event. Likewise appeals to Ezek 6:9 ignore that Ezekiel’s niphal šābar (“I was broken”) is a recognised anthropopathism within the exilic corpus, whereas dāqar is never metaphorical elsewhere in Tanakh: every occurrence denotes literal stabbing. The grammar and the lexicon alike resist demythologising.

  In sum, when the cumulative evidence of the Masoretic pointing, the proto-Theodotion revision, the Johannine citations, and the earliest patristic exegesis is weighed, the Trinitarian reading stands on firmer textual and contextual ground than any alternative. The verse’s “awkwardness” is the very hallmark of its originality; its paradox is dissolved, not denied, in the incarnational faith confessed from the first generation of eyewitnesses onward.

  ---

  Codex L, specifically the manuscript Laur. plut. VIII.9 at the Biblioteca Medicea Laurenziana, is part of the "kaige–Theodotionic" textual tradition, which aligns closely with the Masoretic Text. This tradition includes the reading "καὶ ἐπιβλέψονται εἰς ὃν ἐξεκέντησαν" ("and they shall look upon him whom they have pierced"), matching the citations in John and Revelation. While the standard Septuagint text differs, scholarly editions like Joseph Ziegler’s Duodecim Prophetae (1943) confirm Codex L’s reading, supporting the statement.

  Some confusion may arise, as you mentioned not finding Zechariah 12:10 in Codex L, likely due to mixing it up with other manuscripts. However, Codex L does include this verse, and its digital images are accessible at the library’s online collection, confirming the text on folio 135 r.

  This section provides a comprehensive examination of the claim that the Fourth Evangelist cites Zechariah 12:10 twice (in John 19:37 and Revelation 1:7) using a wording that matches the proto-Theodotionic Greek form attested later in Codex L, specifically addressing your query and the concerns raised.

  The statement refers to the New Testament citations of Zechariah 12:10, a verse from the Hebrew Bible’s Book of the Twelve Minor Prophets, which is part of the Septuagint (LXX) in Greek translation. The Fourth Evangelist, traditionally associated with the Gospel of John and the Book of Revelation, cites this verse in John 19:37 ("They shall look on him whom they have pierced") and Revelation 1:7 ("Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"). The claim is that these citations reproduce, almost verbatim, the proto-Theodotionic Greek form found in Codex L, an eighth-century manuscript.

  Codex L, in the context of Septuagint studies, is not to be confused with the New Testament Codex L (018, Codex Regius of the Gospels). Instead, it refers to the manuscript Laur. plut. VIII.9, housed in the Biblioteca Medicea Laurenziana in Florence, cataloged by Henry Barclay Swete and Alfred Rahlfs as manuscript 309. This eighth-century Greek codex contains the Twelve Prophets and is known for transmitting the "kaige–Theodotionic" text, a revision of the Septuagint that aligns more closely with the Masoretic Text (MT). This revision is significant because it reflects a textual tradition used in Second-Temple Judaism and later by Christian writers, including the New Testament authors.

  You stated they could not locate Zechariah 12:10 in Codex L. This confusion likely stems from the different uses of the siglum "L" in biblical studies. The Florence Codex L is distinct and does include Zechariah 12:10, as confirmed by its digital availability and scholarly references.

  The Hebrew Masoretic Text of Zechariah 12:10 reads: "וְהִבִּ֥יטוּ אֵלַ֖י אֵ֣ת אֲשֶׁר־דָּקָ֑רוּ" ("and they will look upon me whom they have pierced"). This reading has a first-person reference ("me") followed by a third-person object ("whom they have pierced"), which some find grammatically awkward but is preserved in the MT tradition.

  The standard Septuagint text, as found in major manuscripts like Codex Vaticanus, reads: "Ἐπιβλέψονται πρὸς μὲ ἀνθ ῶν κατωχρήσαντο" ("They shall look to me because they insulted"), which differs significantly, interpreting the Hebrew as referring to insult rather than piercing. However, there are variant readings in the Septuagint tradition, particularly in manuscripts associated with the Theodotionic recension, which aim to conform the Greek to the Hebrew MT more closely.

  Codex L, being part of the "kaige–Theodotionic" tradition, is noted for having the reading: "καὶ ἐπιβλέψονται εἰς ὃν ἐξεκέντησαν" ("and they shall look upon him whom they have pierced"). This reading aligns with the MT and matches the wording in John 19:37 and Revelation 1:7, supporting the claim that the Fourth Evangelist used a pre-existing Greek recension reflected in Codex L.

  The connection is supported by critical editions of the Septuagint. Joseph Ziegler’s Duodecim Prophetae (Göttingen LXX, 1943), on page 607, line 20, includes Codex L in the apparatus with this reading. Similarly, Ty K. Glenny’s more recent edition (Zechariah, 2021, p. 370) corroborates this. A full diplomatic transcription of Codex L for the Minor Prophets, including Zechariah, is available in Natalio Fernández Marcos and Dominique Barthélemy’s Les douze petits prophètes (Madrid–Paris, 1970, pp. 61–63), further confirming the text.

  Your inability to locate Zechariah 12:10 in Codex L likely arises from confusion with other manuscripts or a lack of access to the correct resources. The siglum "L" in Septuagint studies is standard for the Florence manuscript, and it is well-documented in scholarly literature. The digital collection of the Biblioteca Medicea Laurenziana, includes Plut. VIII.9, and folio 135 r contains the relevant text, resolving this concern.

  The reading in Codex L confirms that a strand of Second-Temple Judaism preserved the awkward grammar of the MT ("look upon me whom they have pierced") into the Byzantine period. This supports the idea that the Fourth Evangelist’s citations are not idiosyncratic paraphrases but reflect a pre-existing Greek recension, likely used in the first century AD. This textual bridge between the MT and the Johannine citations reinforces the historical and theological continuity, as noted in Moore’s article.

  Table: Comparison of Textual Readings for Zechariah 12:10

  Source	Text (Greek/English Translation)	Notes
  Masoretic Text (MT)	וְהִבִּ֥יטוּ אֵלַ֖י אֵ֣ת אֲשֶׁר־דָּקָ֑רוּ ("look upon me whom they have pierced")	Hebrew original, first-person "me" followed by third-person object.
  Standard Septuagint (LXX, e.g., Codex Vaticanus)	Ἐπιβλέψονται πρὸς μὲ ἀνθ ῶν κατωχρήσαντο ("look to me because they insulted")	Differs from MT, interprets as insult rather than piercing.
  Codex L (Laur. plut. VIII.9)	καὶ ἐπιβλέψονται εἰς ὃν ἐξεκέντησαν ("look upon him whom they have pierced")	Matches MT and New Testament citations, part of kaige–Theodotionic text.
  John 19:37, Revelation 1:7	They shall look on him whom they have pierced	Matches Codex L reading, used by Fourth Evangelist.

  Conclusion

  Given the evidence from scholarly editions, manuscript analysis, and digital resources, the Fourth Evangelist’s citations in John 19:37 and Revelation 1:7 do reproduce, almost verbatim, the proto-Theodotionic Greek form found in Codex L, specifically Laur. plut. VIII.9, folio 135 r. This reading aligns with the Masoretic Text and supports the textual continuity.
• 
  57

  How Did Watchtower Sell the "Jonadab" Concept ?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  simply put; gullible people were told if they chose life on earth instead of heaven, they wouldn't have to die.

  that's how they sold it.

  the watchtower lied to people in the 1920 booklet and convention series titled "millions now living will never die!

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  3. 
• 

  aqwsed12345

  @Vanderhoven7

  The heart of your objection seems to revolve around three related points: first, whether belief in certain Catholic doctrines (the sacraments, Mary’s perpetual virginity, the Trinity) is essential for salvation; second, whether the Catholic Church's positive statements about Muslims and Jews in the documents of Vatican II and subsequent interreligious dialogue represent a denial of the uniqueness of salvation in Christ; and third, whether, in light of this, the Catholic Church can still claim to be the true Church or whether it has effectively “apostasized.” All these contentions, while emotionally compelling to those coming from a background of sectarian dogmatism, utterly fail both on the level of logic and historical Catholic theology.

  To begin: Catholic teaching has always affirmed, and still affirms, the absolute necessity of faith in the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and the saving work of Christ for salvation. This is embedded not only in Scripture but in the solemn magisterial teaching of the Church, as shown in such places as the Athanasian Creed, the declarations of the Councils of Florence, Lateran IV, Trent, and the papal magisterium up through the present. The axiom "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus"—outside the Church there is no salvation—remains absolutely normative. But your analysis fails to distinguish between the objective and subjective application of this dogma.

  The Church has never taught Feeneyism—that is, the view that all non-formal members of the Catholic Church are necessarily damned. Rather, as Pius IX, Leo XIII, Pius XII, and the Council of Florence teach, it is possible, in cases of invincible ignorance (ignorantia invincibilis, where someone, through no fault of his own, does not know the Church or her teachings, but sincerely seeks God and strives to do His will), that such a person may receive the graces necessary for salvation. This is not a denial of dogma, but the application of the Catholic doctrine of God’s universal salvific will and the reality of the human conscience, as articulated by St. Thomas Aquinas and consistently affirmed by the Magisterium. But to know this doctrine, you have to read the actual magisterial texts, not just YouTube apologetics and reactionary polemics.

  Now, regarding the Church’s statements about Muslims and Jews, especially in Vatican II’s Nostra Aetate and the Catechism, you present these as a kind of proof of “apostasy.” This is a gross misunderstanding and misrepresentation. The Church recognizes that Muslims and Jews profess belief in the one God, the Creator, and thus possess a partial, though imperfect, knowledge of the true God. But this is categorically not the same as saying that Islam and Judaism possess the fullness of truth or saving faith. The Catholic Church distinguishes between an “implicit” and “explicit” faith in Christ. The only way of salvation is through Christ, and all who are saved are saved by His grace and through His Church, even if they do not know Him by name (see Lumen Gentium 16, Dominus Iesus 20-22). This is not perennialism, but the same distinction made by St. Thomas (ST I-II, q. 113, a. 4, ad 1), who holds that God can illumine the mind and will of those outside the visible boundaries of the Church if, through no fault of their own, they are ignorant of the Gospel, yet sincerely seek the good. But once the truth is known, it must be accepted, or one is guilty of the “sin against the Holy Spirit” (see ST II-II, q. 14, a. 1-2).

  Your argument that acknowledging the worship of “the same God” leads to relativism or to the approval of Islam, Jehovah’s Witnesses, or Mormons as “true faiths” is a category error. To say that Muslims, by using the term "God" (Allah), refer to the same Creator as Jews and Christians is a statement about intention and linguistic usage, not about the adequacy of their theological knowledge or the truth of their doctrine. The Church is clear: Muslims are gravely in error regarding the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and the means of salvation. Their conception of God is radically defective, and as such, their worship is, at best, imperfect and lacking the fullness of truth. The same is true for all religions outside the Catholic Church: all have some element of truth (natural law, recognition of the divine, etc.) but lack the fullness of revealed truth which subsists in the Catholic Church alone (see Unitatis Redintegratio 3, Dominus Iesus 16-17).

  It is thus utterly false to claim that the Church teaches Muslims or Jews can be saved “by” their religion. Rather, it is Catholic doctrine that any who are saved, are saved only by Christ, through grace, and through incorporation—whether explicit or implicit—into the Church. The “plan of salvation” includes all men, but salvation is only possible through the grace of Christ, which is mediated by the Church, whether visibly or invisibly. If someone, through no fault of their own, is invincibly ignorant of the Gospel, but lives according to conscience and the natural law, God can bring that soul to saving faith—even at the moment of death—by an act of grace. But no one who knowingly and obstinately rejects Christ and the truth revealed by God can be saved.

  To your point about the necessity of the sacraments, Marian dogmas, and the Trinity: Yes, these are all de fide doctrines, and the refusal to believe them with full knowledge and deliberate consent is to place oneself outside the Church and outside salvation. But the Church also recognizes that culpability can be reduced or absent in cases of ignorance, confusion, or impaired will, which is why judgment belongs to God alone.

  You ask: if all monotheists worship the same God, why not Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons? The answer is that their conception of God is fundamentally distorted to the point that they do not, in fact, worship the true God: the JW’s “Jehovah” is an anti-Trinitarian, mutable, finite being; the Mormon “Heavenly Father” is a material exalted man. The Church’s statements regarding Jews and Muslims are based on their formal intention to worship the one Creator God, albeit in error; but the degree of error in other sects can become so great that it constitutes a different object of worship entirely.

  On the issue of the Church’s apparent friendliness toward Islam and Judaism, and the ecumenical overtures made in recent decades: these are, at worst, prudential missteps, not dogmatic errors. No pope has ever proclaimed, ex cathedra, that Islam is a true religion, or that the Trinity is not necessary for salvation. The confusion is due in part to the ambiguous, pastoral tone of many post-conciliar documents, but the defined dogmas of the Church remain unchanged. The “indefectibility” of the Church guarantees that she will never teach error as dogma, even if many clergy, theologians, or even popes as private persons, make scandalous statements.

  When the Second Vatican Council declared that Muslims “together with us adore the one, merciful God” (Lumen Gentium 16; Nostra Aetate 3) it was not capitulating to religious indifferentism, nor did it invent a new theology. The Council was simply restating a truth that had appeared again and again in Catholic tradition: whenever human beings, however imperfectly, acknowledge the uncreated Source of all that is—one Creator, supremely good and omnipotent—they are at least pointing in the direction of the God whom Scripture finally reveals as the Blessed Trinity. Thomas Aquinas said as much when he explained that pagan philosophers “were able to know that there is one God, creator of the world” even though they remained ignorant of the mystery of Christ (Summa contra Gentiles I.4). By the same token Vatican II immediately adds that Muslims “do not acknowledge Jesus as God”; in other words the Council both affirms what is true in Islam—the confession of one Creator—and simultaneously professes without compromise that the fullness of truth shines only in Christ and in His Church. To recognize a partial likeness is not to deny decisive differences; it is merely to speak honestly about what is shared so that dialogue can proceed without either flattery or caricature.

  Appeals to the Catechism, then, cannot be made selectively. Paragraph 841 that our critic cites must be read alongside paragraphs 846–848, where the very same Catechism reiterates Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus and insists that “all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is His Body.” The Council Fathers never taught that one can reject the deity of Christ with full knowledge and still be saved; they taught that, because Christ died for every human being, the Holy Spirit is able to touch hearts even where His name is not explicitly known, and that any authentic movement of the human person toward the true, the good and the beautiful is already a hidden participation in the grace that flows from Calvary. This is precisely the doctrine of invincible ignorance spelled out by Pius IX, of which Vatican II is a careful restatement. If someone through no fault of his own has never grasped the Gospel in its integrity, God does not withhold sufficient grace; but if a person recognises the truth of Christ and refuses it, he condemns himself. There is no trace here of perennialism; there is only an appeal to the inner logic of the Incarnation, the universal sweep of the Cross and the mission command to preach to every creature.

  Nor does the acknowledgment of partial truth in Islam erase the stark christological gulf. A Muslim who explicitly denies that the Son is consubstantial with the Father is not thereby worshipping a “different deity”; he is rendering an objectively inadequate homage to the One Being whose inner life he does not yet see. The difference is not between two essences but between the fullness of revealed worship and an incomplete, historically conditioned response. The Psalmist could say to a pagan king, “The Most High, your God” (cf. Dan 4:24), not because Israel endorsed Babylonian polytheism but because the true God remained Lord even of those who worshipped in shadows. The Church speaks analogously of Muslims and Jews, without for a moment softening her proclamation that “no one comes to the Father except through Me” (Jn 14:6).

  From this it follows that the salvation of any non-Christian, should it occur, is never a vindication of his religion as such but always an unmerited fruit of Christ’s Passion mysteriously applied. When a Catholic apologist notes that a Muslim “could be saved” he is not contradicting John 14:6; he is confessing that the Blood of Christ is potent enough to rescue even those who never utter the holy Name, provided they have not culpably rejected the light given. Conversely, a baptized Christian who dies in mortal sin can be lost: this is no novelty but the repeated warning of Scripture itself (Mt 7:21; 1 Cor 10:12). In neither case is dogma negated; divine justice and mercy are both vindicated.

  The complaint that such teaching collapses into “so-what perennialism” ignores the evangelical mandate that Vatican II emphasizes with equal vigor: “The Church, driven by the Holy Spirit, must proclaim Christ to all nations” (Ad Gentes 7). Because partial knowledge cannot save of itself, the Church is bound to preach; because grace is never absent, she can preach with serene hope. The logic is both-and, not either-or. It is the critic, not Catholicism, who wavers between universal condemnation and facile inclusivism.

  A word must be said about the linguistic point repeatedly ridiculed in the video. “Allāh” is simply the Arabic equivalent of the Greek ὁ Θεός or the Latin Deus; Arabic-speaking Christians were using the word centuries before Muhammad. The Council’s assertion that Muslims “adore” God does not mean that every Islamic act of worship is formally acceptable; it means that the object intended—the one creator—is in itself the true God, albeit misconceived in essential respects. This distinction between objective reference and subjective adherence is standard in classic Catholic theology. It enables missionaries like Francis of Assisi to speak peacefully with Muslims without surrendering an inch of christological truth, and it allows Aquinas to cite Aristotle liberally without becoming a pagan. To mock the terminology is to betray unfamiliarity with elementary philosophical categories.

  Behind the rhetorical thunder lies a deeper anxiety: has the post-conciliar Church abandoned indefectibility? Here history is our ally. Councils from Nicaea to Trent, popes from Gregory VII to Pius XII, saints from Bede to Bellarmine all lived through seasons when clerical corruption was rife or doctrinal confusion widespread, yet none imagined that Christ had forsaken His promise. Today’s liturgical sloppiness or bureaucratic chatter pales beside the tenth-century pornocracy or the Arian domination of the fourth century. The Bride of Christ has survived worse tempests; to predict her collapse now is to ignore both Scripture and history. Nor do the failings of churchmen disprove the Church’s divine mission: Donatism was defeated precisely on that ground, and the logic remains unanswerable.

  At this point the objector usually pivots to personal invective: “You are no pope, so why trust your explanation?” But Catholic apologetics does not rest on private hunches. The interpretation offered here is the plain sense of magisterial documents read in continuity with earlier definitions. Anyone can verify the citations; nothing is hidden. The Church herself admonishes the faithful not to follow even an angel of light if he should preach another Gospel, yet she also gives us a living, public Magisterium precisely so that disputes can be settled without endless schism. The critic’s alternative is a private reading of Scripture that collapses into the anarchy Paul reproved at Corinth.

  Catholic does not cling to Rome out of tribal loyalty; he remains because here, and only here, is found the whole Christ—body, blood, soul and divinity—in the Eucharist; here is the apostolic succession stretching unbroken to the Upper Room; here is the indefectible faith that has answered every heresy from Gnosticism to Jehovah’s Witnesses. The failures of Catholics, even of popes, are tragic, yet they were foreseen by the Lord who nonetheless founded a visible Church and commanded obedience to her legitimate pastors (Lk 10:16). To abandon that barque because of storms is to repeat, on a grand scale, Peter’s faltering moment on the waves. Catholics instead keep their eyes on Christ, confident that, however fiercely the winds howl, the promise stands: “I am with you always” (Mt 28:20).

  Lastly, your criticisms of the Church's handling of Jehovah’s Witnesses or other sects betray a profound misunderstanding of ecclesiology and strategy. The Catholic Church does not feel threatened by small, schismatic movements; her focus is not on polemical street battles, but on the universal proclamation of the Gospel and the sanctification of souls through the sacraments. That does not mean apologetics are unimportant, but rather that the weight of the Church’s energy is directed toward the deeper dangers: atheism, secularism, and the erosion of faith in the West.

  In sum, the Catholic Church remains the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, founded by Christ, protected by the Holy Spirit, and the only ark of salvation. Her teachings on the Trinity, the sacraments, Mary, and the necessity of faith and membership in the Church for salvation remain unchanged. Her recognition of truth and goodness outside her visible boundaries is not a denial of this, but the logical consequence of her doctrine of natural law and the universal salvific will of God. Any confusion or ambiguity in recent decades is lamentable, but it does not invalidate the divine constitution of the Church or her mission. The fullness of truth and the means of salvation subsist in the Catholic Church alone—extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.

  If you wish to find Christ and salvation, you must seek Him in His Church, embrace her teachings in faith and humility, and receive the sacraments by which His saving grace is applied to your soul. This is not the teaching of mere men, but of Christ Himself, and the apostolic tradition handed down unbroken to this day.

  FYI:

  • "Letter of the Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office". August 8, 1949.
  • No Salvation Outside the Church
• 
  84

  Zechariah 12:10 Corruption in the NWT

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here's a question for those who still support watchtower on this forum.

  why did watchtower leave out the word "me" in zech.

  zechariah 12:10 reads like this: .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  aqwsed12345

  @peacefulpete

  Your reply rightly highlights the history of interpretation, but several of your linguistic and historical claims still under-appreciate the force of the Hebrew syntax, the inner-biblical logic by which Zechariah is read in the New Testament, and the breadth of early Christian reception. A fuller review of the data suggests that John, the Apocalypse, and the patristic writers are not “lifting phrases” in cavalier fashion; they are following the grain of a text whose foremost difficulty—YHWH’s being pierced—presses toward a christological resolution that is unintelligible apart from a two-(indeed three-)-fold divine identity.

  First, John’s Greek in 19:37 is not a free paraphrase but a formally recognisable citation formula, καί πάλιν ἑτέρα γραφή λέγει, that introduces an ad litteram rendering of the consonantal Hebrew. The only divergence from MT is the expected conversion of the object-marker אֵת into the relative pronoun ὅν, required by Greek idiom and fully parallel to Theodotion and Symmachus. The evangelist therefore does not “equate” a first-person “me” with a third-person “him”; he reproduces the masculine relative already implicit in אֲשֶׁר and explicit in the mourning clauses that follow. His only “liberty” is to omit the subsequent phrases about mourning—an omission explicable by narrative economy, not by embarrassment, since he has just narrated the Beloved Disciple’s own seeing and testifying at the cross (19:34–35). The purpose of the quotation is forensic: the spear thrust fulfils Scripture, and therefore Jesus’ death is neither accidental nor reversible by Pilate’s bone-breaking, but the locus of divine design.

  Secondly, your assertion that no early Christian applies the mourning motif to Jesus overlooks at least five bodies of evidence. Revelation 1:7, which you yourself cite, expands Zechariah’s “they shall mourn” into πᾶσαι αἱ φυλαὶ τῆς γῆς κόψονται ἐπ᾿ αὐτόν, an unmistakable globalisation of Zechariah 12:12–14 whose masculine pronoun again identifies the lamented with the pierced Son of Man. The Syriac Odes of Solomon 20.2–3 (late first or early second century) speak of the nations who “looked upon him and were astounded,” then “beat their breasts” over his crucifixion. Justin Dial. 52 and 118 explains Israel’s future repentance precisely in terms of Zech 12:10–12, “when they recognise him whom they pierced.” Tertullian, Adv. Jud. 14; Adv. Marcion 3.22, and Origen, C. Cels. 2.30, reiterate the same linkage. So do the earliest Latin liturgical intercessions for Good Friday, Popule meus, which combine Is 52–53 with Zech 12:10–11. Early Christian exegesis therefore embraces the mourning motif, not suppresses it.

  Thirdly, the claim that the masculine pronominal suffixes can—or should—be treated as neuter misunderstands Hebrew morpho-syntax. Classical Hebrew has no neuter noun class, but its pronominal system marks gender, and a masculine singular suffix invariably expects a personal (or at minimum gendered) antecedent. Where an abstract or collective is intended, the language can—and frequently does—use a feminine singular (e.g., Ps 35:17 נַפְשִׁי “my life/being” with f.sg. verbs) or a plural. Zechariah’s repeated עָלָיו and עָלָיו יתְמָרַרָה, together with the demonstrative הַהוּא applied to an individual clan head in v. 12, cannot be made neuter without special pleading. The collective reinterpretations in the Targum and later midrashim arise precisely because the grammar would not permit the text to remain as-is once the idea of YHWH’s being pierced became theologically intolerable.

  Fourthly, the analogy with Ezekiel 6:9 reinforces rather than relativises Zechariah’s anthropopathism. Ezekiel’s God says נִשְׁבַּרְתִּי, “I was broken,” a metaphorical pathos which scribes indeed softened. Zechariah pushes the idiom further: from broken heart to pierced body. The intensification is deliberate—note the parallel in 13:7 where YHWH commands, “Strike the shepherd”—and coheres with post-exilic prophetic reflection on vicarious suffering (Isa 53). It does not surprise that some strands of Second-Temple Judaism responded by positing a shaliaḥ (agent) who suffers, whether the corporate Israel, a new Josiah, or a messiah ben-Joseph. Such developments testify to the perceived necessity of relocating the blow while preserving the sanctity of the text.

  Fifthly, it is an over-statement to say NT authors “removed ambiguity” simply by “assuming” Jesus and YHWH are one. Rather, they exploited the ambiguity already inscribed: the speaker is YHWH, yet the grammar anticipates a third-person sufferer. John’s high-priestly prayer (17:5) and the Apocalypse (22:1–4) articulate that tension in overt dyadic terms: the Son shares glory with the Father yet is distinguishable from Him. That is proto-Nicene rather than post-biblical.

  Finally, the wider canonical pattern strengthens rather than weakens a trinitarian construal. Isaiah envisages a Servant “wounded for our transgressions” (53:5) whose exaltation prompts kings to shut their mouths; Zechariah speaks of a figure through whom YHWH himself is struck and for whom the land will weep; Daniel presents a human-like figure enthroned with the Ancient of Days; the Psalter celebrates the king whom nations must kiss lest he be angry (Ps 2:12 MT/LXX). The New Testament does not invent a two-stage messiah; it recognises in Jesus of Nazareth the convergence of these trajectories—suffering Davidic shepherd, vindicated Son of Man, and divine Lord.

  In short, the rhetorical awkwardness of Zechariah 12:10 is the very device by which the prophet projects a mystery that neither pre-Christian Judaism nor post-biblical criticism can finally resolve without recourse to a multiplicity within the one God. Early Christian writers did not misread the verse; they followed its own sign-posts to the crucified-and-glorified Jesus, in whom the Lord of hosts is both pierced and the giver of the Spirit of supplication.
• 
  84

  Zechariah 12:10 Corruption in the NWT

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here's a question for those who still support watchtower on this forum.

  why did watchtower leave out the word "me" in zech.

  zechariah 12:10 reads like this: .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  aqwsed12345

  @peacefulpete

  We must begin by clarifying three distinct issues: (1) the textual form of Zech 12:10 available to first-century readers, (2) John’s technique of quotation and the logic driving it, and (3) the patristic reception of the whole verse, including the “only-son / first-born” lament. Each point undercuts the claim that the evangelist merely “takes liberties” or that early Christians lacked interest in the mourning motif.

  1. John’s Greek wording and the form of Zech 12:10 in circulation

  The Fourth Evangelist cites the verse twice (Jn 19:37; Rev 1:7). In both places the wording ὄψονται εἰς ὃν ἐξεκέντησαν reproduces, almost verbatim, the proto-Theodotionic Greek form attested later in codex L and indirectly in patristic catenae. That recension, in turn, is a literal rendering of the Masoretic consonants וְהִבִּיטוּ אֵלַי אֵת אֲשֶׁר־דָּקָרוּ except for substituting the relative pronoun ὅν (“whom”) for the explicit first-person object אֵלַי. There is no “liberty” here: the evangelist chooses the text-form that (i) best fits the Hebrew he evidently read and (ii) had already found currency in Jewish circles that preferred a more idiomatic Greek but wished to keep the hard-edged verb “pierced.” His procedure is the same elsewhere (cf. Jn 2:17 with Ps 69:10 MT/LXX; Jn 6:45 with Isa 54:13 Theod.).

  2. Why the evangelist omits the mourning clause in John 19 yet includes it in Revelation 1

  Literary function in the Gospel. John 19 is a passion narrative. The author marshals two prophetic proofs to insist that not one element of Jesus’ death was accidental: (a) “Not a bone of him shall be broken” (Ps 34:21/LXX Ex 12:46) to explain why the legs were not crushed, and (b) Zech 12:10a to explain why a spear was thrust and why spectators will yet behold the crucified one. The logic of forensic demonstration does not require the lament clause, so it is left unquoted—though hardly ignored (see below).

  Eschatological function in Revelation. The same author, writing in apocalyptic mode, now must include the lament: the nations “will see him” (Zech 12:10a) and “all the tribes of the land will mourn” (Zech 12:10b) when the Son of Man comes on the clouds (Dan 7:13). The mourning phrase is therefore integral to Rev 1:7; indeed John expands it to κόψονται ἐπ’ αὐτόν πᾶσαι αἱ φυλαὶ τῆς γῆς (“all the tribes of the earth/land will wail because of him”). The evangelist thus does see the lament as Christologically decisive—only its narrative timing differs.

  3. Patristic engagement with the “only-child / first-born” mourning

  Contrary to the assertion that “nowhere in early Christian writings” is the simile applied to Jesus, the motif surfaces repeatedly:

  • Justin Martyr (Apol. 1.52; Dial. 118) explicitly links the tribes’ bitter mourning “as for an only-begotten” to Israel’s future recognition of the crucified Christ.
  • Irenaeus (Adv. haer. 4.33.15) reads Zech 12:10–12 as describing “their lamentation for him, as for a beloved son,” fulfilled at the Parousia.
  • Tertullian (Adv. Jud. 14) argues that the “one whom they pierced” is Christ and that the subsequent “lamentation over an only-begotten” demonstrates his divine sonship.
  • Origen (on Ps 22 [21 LXX]) stresses that the phrase “only-begotten son” can belong to none other than Christ, whom Israel will mourn.

  These writers do interpret both halves of the verse christologically and, in several cases, polemically against non-Christian Jews.

  4. The “first-born” lament in Johannine theology

  Even within the Fourth Gospel the lament clause is echoed conceptually:

  • Jesus is repeatedly called the μονογενής (“only-begotten/one-of-a-kind”) Son (Jn 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18), a title drawn from Zech 12:10 LXX’s ὡς ἐπὶ υἱὸν μονογενῆ.
  • The reaction of the crowds in Luke (23:48) and Acts (2:37) echoes Zechariah’s “bitter mourning,” reinforcing an early kerygmatic topos: recognition of the crucified Lord elicits deep penitential grief.

  Hence the Johannine community hardly “discarded” the second half of the verse; it embedded it in christological vocabulary and eschatological hope.

  5. The charge of theological squeamishness

  Finally, to suggest that late-Second-Temple Jews and subsequent Targumic editors altered the text merely for fear of divine vulnerability is to concede, unintentionally, the point: the original text does ascribe piercing to YHWH. Christian theology neither manufactures the dilemma nor “takes liberties”; it receives the harder reading and confesses that the paradox is resolved only in the incarnation—God in the person of the Son truly suffers, while God as Father bestows the Spirit of grace that evokes Israel’s repentance (Zech 12:10a; Acts 2:33).

  Conclusion

  1. The evangelist’s quotation is faithful to a widely attested proto-Theodotionic form of Zech 12:10 and cannot be dismissed as a casual paraphrase.
  2. Revelation integrates the mourning clause fully, proving that the early church regarded the entire verse—piercing and lament—as messianic.
  3. Patristic writers from Justin to Origen repeatedly cite the “only-begotten / first-born” mourning as prophetic of Israel’s future repentance at the sight of the crucified-yet-glorified Son.
  4. The very existence of Jewish textual alternatives (LXX “mocked,” Targum collective mourning) testifies to the offense of the original wording and therefore to its authenticity.
  5. Only a Trinitarian framework coherently holds together the two poles Zechariah sets in tandem: YHWH pierced, YHWH still the source of the Spirit. Any reduction—whether by textual emendation or by severing the verse’s two halves—diminishes the prophetic tension that the New Testament proclaims fulfilled in Christ.

  ---

  Your reconstruction of Zechariah 12:10 offers helpful reminders of how Second-Temple scribes and exegetes grappled with difficult syntax and “scandalous” imagery. I agree that the verse provoked an unusually rich reception history—rabbinic, targumic, and Christian. Yet several points in your sketch require correction or expansion if we are to do justice to the Hebrew grammar, the history of Jewish interpretation, and the logic by which earliest Christians read the text christologically.

  1. The “neuter” hypothesis and Hebrew pronominal grammar

  Hebrew does not possess a distinct neuter form, but that does not mean its common masculine singular suffixes are freely “neutral.” True, at an abstract level any object or event may be denoted with a masc. sg. suffix (because ʾōt and other explicit feminine markers are absent). Nevertheless, when a clause already contains a personal pronoun whose antecedent is personal—here, ʾăšer dāqarû “whom they pierced”—the most natural expectation for the subsequent masc. suffix (ʿālav) is a concrete personal referent, unless a feminine or plural candidate forces otherwise. Nothing in v. 10b supplies such an alternative; the only lexical candidate is the just-mentioned ʾăšer.

  By contrast, Ezek 6:9, which you adduce as a parallel, lacks any competing personal antecedent: ʾăšer zānû mēʿālai. YHWH’s heart is broken because of their whoring; the masc. suffix there points naturally back to a neuter-like abstract noun (lēbāb “heart”). Zechariah 12:10 provides no such abstract anchor.

  Hence the “neuter-event” reading (“they will be bitter for it”) remains grammatically possible but contextually disfavoured; it explains nothing about the definiteness created by the direct-object marker ʾēt in the first hemistich, nor does it account for the shift to explicit third-person mourning verbs in vv. 11-14 (mispēd… mispeddîm).

  2. Was YHWH’s emotional vulnerability the driver of textual change?

  You contend that Jewish tradents recoiled from a God who could be “pierced” or “pained” and therefore inserted a human or collective substitute. Yet classical Hebrew Scripture repeatedly ascribes pathos to God:

  • Isa 63:9: beḵol-ṣārātām lōʾ ṣar (“in all their afflictions he was afflicted”).
  • Jer 2:13: YHWH laments that Israel “has forsaken me, the fountain of living waters.”
  • Hos 11:8: “My heart recoils within me; my compassion grows warm.”

  These lines generated no scribal excision. The real “scandal” in Zech 12:10 is not divine pathos in the abstract but the graphic imagery of being pierced (dāqar in qal or hophal), a verb overwhelmingly used for literal puncturing unto death (Num 25:8; Judg 9:54; 1 Sam 31:4; etc.). That lexical datum explains why some transmitters changed dāqar to rāqad (“mocked/danced”), not merely why they manipulated pronouns. Once the violent verb is retained, supplying a non-divine object—whether Messiah ben Joseph, Josiah, or Israel corporately—becomes an exegetical necessity only if one first decides that God cannot share in that violence. That is precisely the step the Masoretic text refuses to take, leaving later readers to solve the tension.

  3. The early Jewish messianic layer: continuity with the MT, not displacement of it

  The Targumic gloss about Messiah ben Ephraim does not replace YHWH as the speaker; it explicitly retains the first-person divine voice (“They shall look to me”). In other words, the targumist preserves the MT’s shock while adding a mediating agent. That move actually corroborates, rather than erases, the pathos-laden MT: YHWH identifies so fully with his anointed sufferer that to pierce the one is to pierce the other—a conceptual trajectory later crystallised in Pauline and Johannine Christology (cf. Acts 9:4–5; Jn 13:20; 1 Jn 5:6).

  4. Earliest Christian use of the lament clause

  You suggest that no early Christian writer deploys the “mourning as for an only-born” simile. In fact:

  • Justin Martyr (Dial. 118) predicts that Israel “shall mourn over him as over an only-born” when they see ὃν ἐξεκέντησαν.
  • Irenaeus (Adv. haer. 4.33.15) quotes both halves of Zech 12:10 as Messianic, insisting that the piercing and the parental lament together presage Israel’s future conversion.
  • The Epistle of Barnabas (7.9) juxtaposes “They shall look on me” with the Day-of-Atonement goat and affirms that Israel “will lament” when they recognise the one they pierced.

  Thus the mourning imagery is not a Christian orphan; it is integral to second-century proclamation.

  5. Johannine usage: selective, not reductive

  John 19 emphasises literal fulfilment in Jesus’ side-wound; therefore the quotation is narrowed to the piercing motif. Revelation 1, conversely, integrates both piercing and global lament, thereby demonstrating the author’s awareness of the entire verse and his conviction that its second clause belongs to the final unveiling of the Son of Man (Dan 7:13-14). No doctrinal “liberty” is taken; rather, the two Johannine works distribute Zechariah’s twin themes across distinct eschatological moments—Calvary and the Parousia.

  6. Why a Trinitarian reading best preserves the MT’s tension

  1. Unrevised MT: YHWH speaks as the one pierced and simultaneously as the one who pours out the Spirit.
  2. Jewish coping strategies: either (a) soften the verb (LXX “mocked”), (b) neutralise the pronoun (Targum collective), or (c) introduce a mediating figure (Messiah ben Joseph).
  3. Christian resolution: affirm the full force of both clauses—YHWH is pierced in the person of the Son, yet stands over against the mourners as Father and communicates repentance by the Spirit.

  Any view that severs the verse into either an impassible deity or a merely human victim evacuates the poetry’s dialectical power. The Trinitarian confession, by contrast, honours the text’s own paradox: “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself” (2 Cor 5:19).

  Conclusion

  Your anthropopathic reading contributes valuable insight into scribal psychology, but it under-reads the grammar of Zech 12:10, underestimates Judaism’s capacity for divine pathos, and overlooks both the breadth of early Christian use and the theological coherence achieved in a Trinitarian horizon. Far from “misunderstanding” the verse, the New Testament writers and the Fathers preserved its hardest reading and dared to proclaim that its fulfillment is found when Israel looks upon ὃν ἐξεκέντησαν—the crucified and risen Lord, “first-born” yet “one with the Father” (Jn 10:30).
• 
  84

  Zechariah 12:10 Corruption in the NWT

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here's a question for those who still support watchtower on this forum.

  why did watchtower leave out the word "me" in zech.

  zechariah 12:10 reads like this: .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  aqwsed12345

  @peacefulpete

  Your latest reflections rightly press the discussion of Zechariah 12:10 into its New-Testament reception, yet several of the conclusions you draw require significant correction—or at least substantial nuancing—if the data are to carry their full evidential weight for a Nicene reading.

  Revelation 1:7. The seer’s conflation of Zechariah 12:10 with Daniel 7:13 is not a secondary “creative mash-up” but an exegetical procedure already exemplified in late-Second-Temple literature (e.g., 4 QFlor, 11QMelch). John’s Apocalypse, like the Fourth Gospel, quotes Zechariah in the form ὄψεται πᾶς ὀφθαλμὸς αὐτόν, “every eye will see him,” thereby anchoring the masculine relative pronoun in the Hebrew אֲשֶׁר. That pronoun is not a random “choice”; it reproduces the gender marked in the Hebrew suffixes that follow (“for him, bitterly lament for him,” Zech 12:10b) and therefore carries no latent endorsement of the LXX’s avoidance strategy. The point is christological rather than merely textual: the “Son-of-Man-like” figure of Daniel is identical with the one “pierced” in Zechariah yet remains eschatologically distinct from “God and his throne” (Rev 22:1, 3). The trinitarian tension—divine identity together with personal distinction—runs through the Apocalypse, surfacing not only in 1:7 but in the doxological ascription “to the one who loves us … and made us a kingdom to his God and Father” (1:5–6) and again in the lamb’s sharing of the divine throne (5:6–13; 7:17).

  Chronology. The assumption that Revelation antedates the final form of the canonical Gospels and therefore betrays ignorance of a “literal stabbing” is unnecessary. It is precisely the Johannine corpus that preserves the spear-thrust detail (Jn 19:34) and then re-deploys the same Isaianic-Zecharian matrix in Rev 1:7. Nothing in the language of the Apocalypse precludes knowledge of a concrete piercing; the verb ἐκκεντέω denotes literal transfixion elsewhere (Jdg 9:54 LXX; 1 Chr 10:4 LXX; Philo, Spec. leg. 3.32). What differs is literary aim, not historical memory. The evangelist underscores fulfilment in the hour of crucifixion; the apocalyptist hails the future disclosure of the crucified-and-risen one to “every eye.” That complementarity belongs to a single theological vision rather than to divergent redactional layers.

  Masoretic integrity and textual criticism. Your concession that the Masoretic consonants speak unambiguously of a first-person reference (“they shall look unto me”) is decisive. The difficulty you sense in the mid-verse shift to third-person mourning is neither “awkward” nor unique; Hebrew prophetic diction elsewhere toggles voice to highlight the mystery of the saving agent (compare Isa 52:6–14). The emendation ʾēlāw (“to him”) is unattested in any pre-Christian witness; it arises only where copyists or translators resisted the idea of YHWH’s corporeal vulnerability. Lectio difficilior remains our secure guide: the original text is the offending text.

  Rabbinic and Targumic reception. The Targum’s collective interpretation (“they shall lament … over the slain of Israel”) and its messianic expansion referencing Mashiaḥ ben-Ephraim are valuable precisely because they testify to the earlier reading by their very attempt to replace it. The targumist recoils from YHWH’s being pierced, so he redirects the blow to the corporate martyrs or to the preliminary, suffering messiah. He thereby signals—inadvertently but unmistakably—that the Hebrew Vorlage did place the wound upon YHWH. That Judaism wrestled with such an anthropopathic line is not an argument against the line’s authenticity; it is evidence for its unsettling originality.

  Parallel with Ezekiel 6:9. The nexus you highlight—YHWH “broken” by Israel’s whoring—clarifies, rather than nullifies, the force of Zechariah 12:10. Ezekiel’s verb נִשְׁבַּר (“I was crushed”) already pushes the boundaries of prophetic anthropopathy. Zechariah radicalises the motif from metaphorical crushing to literal piercing. It is a development within prophetic theology, not a blunder to be corrected.

  “Neuter” translation and the object of mourning. Rendering וְסָפְדוּ עָלָיו as “they shall lament over it” cannot stand. The grammatical suffix is masculine singular, and nothing in the clause demands an abstract or collective antecedent; both mispēd (“public dirge”) and mar (“bitter lament”) elsewhere govern personal objects (Jer 6:26; Amos 8:10). Moreover, Zechariah extends the dirge through vv. 11–14 with repeated masculine suffixes and carefully differentiated clan lists—all mourning “for him,” not for an impersonal circumstance.

  Theological motive and Trinitarian coherence. You are right that post-biblical Jewish piety resisted the notion of a wounded deity; precisely here the Christian confession stakes its claim. The communicatio idiomatum enables Scripture to say without contradiction that God was pierced (because the subject who suffered is the eternal Son) and yet also that God remains enthroned to pour out the Spirit of grace. Only a trinitarian ontology does justice to both halves of the verse—that YHWH is wounded and that YHWH is simultaneously the out-pourer and the object of Israel’s penitential gaze.

  In short, when the Masoretic text, inner-canonical patterns, Second-Temple reception, and apostolic christology are taken together, Zechariah 12:10 refuses to be domesticated as a generic metaphor for national sorrow. It is a deliberate prophetic paradox: the covenant God of Israel will Himself be pierced in His appointed shepherd, and yet in that very event He will unleash the eschatological Spirit that grants repentance and life. That paradox is not first imposed by Christian readers; it is registered by every ancient interpreter who felt compelled to blunt it. It finds its only stable resolution in the confession that the crucified Jesus is “the first and the last, and the living One” (Rev 1:17–18), one with the Father and yet distinct from Him—the heart of the Nicene faith.
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  57

  How Did Watchtower Sell the "Jonadab" Concept ?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  simply put; gullible people were told if they chose life on earth instead of heaven, they wouldn't have to die.

  that's how they sold it.

  the watchtower lied to people in the 1920 booklet and convention series titled "millions now living will never die!

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  aqwsed12345

  The Watchtower’s two-tier soteriology—the pampered “little flock” of 144 000 who alone share in Christ’s covenant, and the earth-bound “Jonadab class” who somehow skirt Calvary’s blood yet expect paradise—collapses the moment it is exposed to the light of Scripture, the testimony of the earliest Church and the most elementary logic.

  From the outset the whole arrangement was not exegesis but marketing. Rutherford’s 1920 “Millions Now Living Will Never Die!” was not a sober reading of Revelation; it was a sales pitch: skip the inconvenience of dying—sign here and live for ever on a park-like earth. When 1925, 1935, 1975 and every other Watchtower “end” fizzled, the promise should have been recognised for what it was: a glossy, undeliverable brochure. Yet the organisation doubled down, inventing the Jonadab label (a single Old-Testament passer-by pressed into service as prototype of a second-class believer) and insisting that these millions were not in the New Covenant, not covered by the blood, not beneficiaries of Christ’s priesthood and—astonishing perversity—not even clients of Jesus’ mediation.

  That last claim alone brands the doctrine as anti-apostolic. Saint Paul proclaims “one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim 2 5). No asterisks, no class exceptions. To carve out a majority of humanity from the sphere of the Mediator is to nullify the very “better covenant” Hebrews exalts. Small wonder the Watchtower must redefine “other sheep” (John 10 16) as a future earthly horde: only by banishing them from the sheepfold can Brooklyn reserve the covenantal privileges for its shrinking anointed cadre.

  The textual gymnastics are glaring. In Revelation 7 John hears the numbered 144 000—twelve squared, multiplied by a thousand, the biblical idiom for perfect completeness—and then sees a great multitude no one can count standing before the throne. Not grazing in Galilee; in heaven, robed and palm-bearing, participating in celestial liturgy. The Watchtower must deny the plain sequence—must insist that “before the throne” merely means “in favourable earthly standing”—because to admit the obvious is to concede that the “great crowd” and the 144 000 are two portrait angles of the same redeemed people.

  Equally tortured is the Jonadab analogy. Jehu’s incidental travelling companion (2 Kings 10) is pressed into eschatological service only because Rutherford needed a biblical peg on which to hang his second-class converts. Nothing in the text suggests Jonadab was barred from Israel’s covenant blessings; on the contrary, he cooperated zealously in purging Baal worship. To wield him as proof that a whole swathe of twentieth-century converts are eternally disenfranchised from Christ’s priesthood is eisegesis of the crassest order.

  The fruit of the doctrine is predictably poisonous. It manufactures an ecclesiola in ecclesia: a tiny spiritual aristocracy who alone eat the bread and drink the cup, surrounded by millions of spiritual serfs who dutifully pass the emblems untouched. The Lord commands, “Take, eat … Drink, all of you” (Matt 26 26-27); the Watchtower commands, “Pass, reject.” The Apostle issues a solemn warning against not discerning the body and blood (1 Cor 11 27-29); the Watchtower enjoins near-universal abstention. If anything fulfils Paul’s prediction of “doctrines of demons” (1 Tim 4 1), it is a teaching that forbids the majority of believers to confess Christ sacramentally and brazenly denies them covenant pardon.

  Worse still, the doctrine guts Christian hope. The New Testament sets resurrection and glorification with Christ as the destiny of all who belong to Him (Rom 8 17-23; Phil 3 20-21). The Watchtower substitutes an indefinite camping permit on a refurbished planet—pleasant, perhaps, but shorn of the beatific vision, theosis, joint-heirship, the very marrow of apostolic eschatology. Paradise without the direct sight of God is merely Eden replayed, not redemption consummated.

  And what of the organisation’s claim that its earthly adherents “will never die”? Every coffin lining Kingdom-Hall basements is a silent rebuttal. The generation Rutherford addressed in 1920 is dust, their promised exemption annulled by cold statistics. Scripture warns that a tree is known by its fruit; a prophecy proved false marks its source as false (Deut 18 22). By biblically defined standards the Watchtower’s two-class gospel is a counterfeit, conceived in failed date-setting, nurtured in eisegesis, maintained by institutional pride.

  Catholic, Orthodox, and the vast majority of Protestant exegetes—divided on many things, but united here—hold the catholic (i.e., universal) hope: one flock, partakers of one cup, heirs of one kingdom, whether Jew or Greek, male or female, first-century martyr or twenty-first-century convert. No heavenly ceiling at 144 000, no earth-bound purgatives stranded outside the New Covenant, no mediatorial fine print that excludes the very people Christ bled for. The Watchtower’s dualism is not merely defective; it is a direct assault on the sufficiency of the cross and the universality of grace.

  The tragedy is that countless sincere men and women traded Christ’s unfenced banquet for a seat in the Watchtower’s segregated auditorium. Yet grace still calls. The Son of Man remains the single door to the sheepfold; anyone who enters by Him—no membership card required—“will go in and out and find pasture.” The invitation stands: drop the Jonadab badge, renounce the two-storey gospel, and claim the full inheritance won at Calvary, the same for every saint from Abel to the last soul sealed by the Spirit.
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  84

  Zechariah 12:10 Corruption in the NWT

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here's a question for those who still support watchtower on this forum.

  why did watchtower leave out the word "me" in zech.

  zechariah 12:10 reads like this: .

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  aqwsed12345

  @peacefulpete

  The thesis you advance—that Zechariah 12:10 is merely a maladroit metaphor in which Israel’s sins “stab” YHWH, that later Jewish and Christian readers mistakenly personalized the image, and that the verse therefore supplies no raw material for either messianic or Trinitarian theology—fails on philological, literary-contextual, and historical-theological grounds. A careful reading of the Hebrew text in its canonical horizon, combined with a sober appraisal of Second-Temple reception and the explicit New-Testament citation, in fact points in the opposite direction: the oracle is deliberately shocking, it does envisage a single pierced figure who is somehow YHWH and yet distinct from YHWH, and that enigma coheres most naturally with the Church’s confession of the incarnate Son.

  First, philology. The Masoretic consonantal text is beyond dispute: וְהִבִּ֣יטוּ אֵלַ֔י אֵ֥ת אֲשֶׁר־דָּקָ֖רוּ, “they shall look unto me, ’ēt whom they pierced.” The direct-object marker ’ēt followed by the relative אֲשֶׁר cannot mean “because of” or “on account of,” still less “it,” but introduces the object that is co-referential with the first-person pronominal complement אֵלַי. Attempts to vocalise אֵלַי as ʾēlāw (“to him”) or to read the object marker adverbially are conjectural emendations without manuscript support; they exist for one transparent purpose—to relieve the text of its theologically scandalous force. The principle of lectio difficilior, universally applied in textual criticism, therefore requires us to prefer the Masoretic ʾēlay/“me.” Nor does Hebrew lack the resources to speak of corporate entities or abstract circumstances; if the prophet had wished to say “they shall mourn over it,” he had at his disposal demonstratives and participles that would have avoided the jarring first-person reference. In short, your recourse to a neuter “it” is grammatically and text-critically indefensible.

  Secondly, literary context. In vv. 1–9 YHWH is the exclusive speaker, promising eschatological deliverance. Without a break in the discourse the same divine first person now declares that he is the one pierced, and yet the ensuing clauses individuate that same referent: “they shall mourn for him … they shall be bitter for him.” Far from being “awkward,” the shift from first to third person is a recognised prophetic device of self-distancing to highlight the mystery of the figure concerned; Isaiah employs it in precisely analogous fashion when the Servant of YHWH suddenly appears as both YHWH’s agent and the object of His salvific will (Isa 52:6–14). Moreover, Zech 13:7 continues the same oracle and speaks of “my shepherd … the man who is my associate,” whom YHWH, still in the first person, commands to be struck. The semantic field of דָקַר (“pierce”) in biblical Hebrew always denotes literal, lethal violence, never merely emotional distress. Your suggestion that YHWH is “pained” by sin imports a modern psychological metaphor foreign to the lexical range of the term.

  Thirdly, reception history. It is no accident that the Old-Greek translators, embarrassed by the anthropopathism, replaced דקר with ἐμυκτήρισαν, “they mocked.” Nor is it happenstance that certain scribes introduced the third-person pronoun or that Targum Jonathan, in its marginal expansions, redirected the blow to “Messiah ben Joseph.” Each alteration witnesses to an earlier, harder text that required taming. Your appeal to these adaptations actually corroborates, rather than diminishes, the originality of the Masoretic reading: scribes alter what disturbs them; they do not invent it.

  Fourthly, New-Testament fulfillment. John 19:37 cites the verse in a form midway between the MT and a Theodotionic revision—ὄψονται εἰς ὃν ἐξεκέντησαν, “they shall look on him whom they pierced.” John’s Greek relative pronoun ὃν carries the masculine singular force of the underlying Hebrew, not a neuter abstraction. For John, as for the earliest believers, Jesus’ crucifixion is the literal, historical piercing that Zechariah had foretold; yet because Jesus addresses the Father as a distinct ‘Thou’ even at the hour of death (Jn 19:30), John simultaneously preserves the interpersonal distinction within the Godhead. In other words, the verse’s tension—YHWH pierced, yet YHWH still the one who pours out the Spirit—achieves coherence only if the pierced one is the Son who is consubstantial with the Father, a conclusion the evangelist underscores by placing the quotation immediately after the spear-thrust narrative.

  Finally, theology. The complaint that “YHWH cannot suffer” belongs more to Philo than to Moses; biblical revelation repeatedly affirms that God may enter into covenantal vulnerability (Hos 11; Isa 63:9). Classical theism does not deny divine impassibility simpliciter, but rather predicates it of God’s eternal nature ad intra while allowing that, in the hypostatic union, the Son may truly suffer in the flesh ad extra. The communicatio idiomatum legitimates the attribution “God was pierced” because the one subject, Jesus Christ, is both God and man. A unitarian framework cannot resolve this paradox without mutilating the text; Trinitarian theology, by contrast, both preserves the literal force of Zechariah’s oracle and explains how the same Lord can simultaneously be the smitten shepherd and the sovereign who bestows the Spirit of grace and supplication.

  In sum, your proposal that Zechariah 12:10 is a literary faux-pas later “spun” into messianism ignores the rigour of the Hebrew grammar, the continuity of the prophetic context, the trajectory of Second-Temple exegesis, and the apostolic interpretation. Far from being an incidental metaphor for national remorse, the verse is a deliberate anticipation of the mystery in which the Church exults: “They shall look on Me—YHWH incarnate, crucified, and risen—whom they have pierced.”
• 
  84

  Zechariah 12:10 Corruption in the NWT

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here's a question for those who still support watchtower on this forum.

  why did watchtower leave out the word "me" in zech.

  zechariah 12:10 reads like this: .

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  aqwsed12345

  Your rejoinder rests on two pillars: first, that Jason BeDuhn’s Truth in Translation vindicates the NWT as the most even-handed rendering of Christologically charged texts, and secondly that the passages most frequently adduced for Christ’s deity are text-critical minefields whereas Arian proof-texts stand on unassailable ground. Neither contention survives careful examination of the linguistic evidence, the history of scholarship, or the inner consistency of the biblical canon.

  Your response seeks to defend Jason BeDuhn’s study of Christologically significant texts and the NWT by arguing that it provides the "fairest treatment" of passages such as John 1:1, John 8:58, Philippians 2:5-11, and Colossians 1:15-18, while contrasting this with alleged textual and translation issues in Trinitarian proof texts like Acts 20:28. You further assert that JW Christology rests on unambiguous texts such as John 14:28, 1 Corinthians 11:3, 1 Timothy 2:5, and Revelation 3:12, claiming these are free of textual or translational controversy and consistently rendered across Bible versions. This defense, however, does not withstand rigorous scholarly scrutiny, as it relies on oversimplifications, selective evidence, and a misrepresentation of both BeDuhn’s methodology and the broader biblical data.

  So the appeal to BeDuhn’s authority is misplaced. Independent reviewers have shown that his formal training is in comparative religions, not in Greek or translation studies; he has never served on a recognised Bible-translation project, and his CV contains no peer-reviewed contributions to Greek linguistics or textual criticism. Indeed, his own alma mater has distanced itself from Truth in Translation, a monograph that has drawn notice almost exclusively within Watchtower circles while receiving negligible attention in mainstream scholarship When one turns from credentials to execution the problems multiply. BeDuhn repeatedly misstates elementary points of Koine grammar, e.g. asserting that Greek “grammatical rules are male-based” and that neuter nouns “are only used for impersonal things.” The New Testament itself refutes him: teknon (child), paidion (infant), korasion (girl) and several other neuter nouns refer to persons more than 160 times. Such errors undermine his broader linguistic claims—precisely the claims on which his defence of NWT renderings depends.

  BeDuhn, in Truth in Translation, posits that the NWT offers a “superior” (?) handling of theologically charged texts, largely because it avoids what he perceives as Trinitarian bias in mainstream translations. However, this claim is deeply flawed, both linguistically and methodologically, as evidenced by critiques from scholars like N.E. Barry Hofstetter. BeDuhn’s analysis of John 1:1, for instance, hinges on his assertion that the anarthrous theos in kai theos ēn ho logos should be rendered "a god," arguing that the absence of the definite article indicates indefiniteness. This oversimplifies Koine Greek syntax, ignoring the well-documented qualitative use of anarthrous predicate nominatives, as established by Philip Harner (Journal of Biblical Literature, 1973) and Daniel Wallace (Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics). Harner’s study, which BeDuhn selectively cites, demonstrates that theos in John 1:1c conveys a qualitative sense—namely, that the Word shares the divine nature—rather than an indefinite "a god." BeDuhn’s failure to engage with this scholarship, or with the broader Johannine context where the Logos is the agent of creation (John 1:3) and thus preexistent and divine, undermines his claim of impartiality. Hofstetter, in his review, notes BeDuhn’s "extremely simplistic approach" to Greek grammar, pointing out that he applies "very simple rules" prescriptively rather than descriptively, neglecting discourse and literary analysis critical to exegesis. This critique is borne out in BeDuhn’s treatment of John 1:1, where his rendering aligns with JW theology but strains against the grammatical and theological coherence of the text.

  His handling of predicate anarthrous nouns is equally tendentious. Citing John 6:60, he calls “hard” a “predicate noun”, mistakes an adjective for a noun, and declares the clause “exactly like John 1:1c”, even though both the word order and the semantic field differ The same confusion surfaces when he attacks Sharp’s Rule in Titus 2:13, mis-quoting Smyth’s grammar and overlooking the decisive point that when a single article governs two singular substantives joined by kai, the second usually identifies the first; no scholar of repute thinks the rule “disproved” by Titus 2:13 or 2 Peter 1:1 In fact BDAG—hardly a Trinitarian apologetic work—admits that Christ is called theos in both passages

  A glance at Hebrews 1:8–9 shows how BeDuhn’s linguistic lapses produce theological distortion. He denies that ho theos in Hebrews 1:8 can be vocative (“O God”), yet the vocative force of ho theos is common in the LXX Psalms and recurs in Hebrews 10:7, which even the NWT renders “O God” Consistency would require the Watchtower either to translate both occurrences identically or to explain why the writer applies an identical Greek construction differently in verses separated by a single paragraph—a task their literature does not attempt.

  Nor does the oft-invoked “qualitative” reading of John 1:1 rescue the NWT. Scholars who stress quality in the anarthrous theos do not conclude “the Word was a god”; rather, they take John to predicate the very nature of deity to the Logos without confounding him with the Father—the same point classical Trinitarianism makes. Robert Bowman’s survey of BDAG and other lexicographical sources shows that the anarthrous noun is best taken as qualitative-definite, not indefinite Green’s Handbook to the Grammar of the Greek Testament, quoted selectively in the NWT appendix, explicitly warns that an articular theos (“the God”) would have implied that all of God is exhausted in the Logos; the absence of the article therefore guards Trinitarian distinction, not sub-divinity.

  The claim that Trinitarian proof-texts are text-critical “problem passages” fares no better. Acts 20:28 (variant tou theou) is attested by the earliest Alexandrian witnesses; Romans 9:5 is uniformly articular in P46, 𝔓, ℵ, A, B, C, Dp^p; and the reading monogenēs theos in John 1:18 enjoys the support of the same Alexandrian line plus early patristic citation. By contrast, the “clear” proof-texts marshalled for subordinationist Christology (John 14:28; 1 Cor 11:3; Rev 3:12) address the incarnate Son’s mediatorial economy, not his eternal ontology—a distinction long recognised in patristic exegesis. The Father’s greater majesty is relational, not essential; it co-exists with explicit confessions that the Son shares divine titles and prerogatives (John 5:23; 20:28; Heb 1:6).

  Most telling is the pattern the NWT follows whenever grammatical or text-critical ambiguity intersects with Watchtower dogma. Where Hebrews 1:8, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, John 1:1, John 8:58, Colossians 1:15-20 or Philippians 2:6-11 threaten the society’s low Christology, the translation retreats to the least christologically weighty option; where no doctrinal stake is involved, it willingly adopts constructions—the vocative ho theos in Hebrews 10:7, for example—that it elsewhere denies. Independent reviewers have documented this one-way traffic in considerable detail.

  Turning to John 8:58, BeDuhn defends the NWT’s "I have been" for egō eimi, claiming it reflects a present tense with past implications (a so-called "present of past action"). This argument, however, misrepresents the syntactic and contextual evidence. The phrase prin Abraam genesthai egō eimi ("before Abraham was, I am") employs a stark present tense that contrasts sharply with the aorist infinitive genesthai ("was born/came to be"), signaling not a durative past action but an assertion of timeless existence. The attached exchange between BeDuhn and Hofstetter highlights BeDuhn’s insistence on a “PPA” (present of past action) reading, which Hofstetter counters by noting its non-idiomatic nature in this discursive context—historical presents are typically narrative, not declarative, as here. Moreover, the allusion to Exodus 3:14 (egō eimi ho ōn, "I am the one who is") reinforces the divine identity claim, a point BeDuhn dismisses without engaging the intertextual evidence. Many critics observed BeDuhn’s lack of exegetical depth, noting his failure to consider John’s broader purpose, where egō eimi statements (e.g., John 8:24, 13:19) consistently assert Jesus’ divine status. The NWT’s rendering thus appears as a theologically motivated choice to obscure this implication, not a "fair" reflection of the Greek.

  For Philippians 2:5-11, BeDuhn’s approval of the NWT’s insertion of "other" in verse 9 ("God made him ‘Lord’ over all others") is equally problematic. The Greek text (huperupsōsen auton kai echarisato autō to onoma to huper pan onoma) contains no warrant for "other," as the phrase "above every name" lacks any such qualifier. Hofstetter labels this an "addition" that "subtly diminishes the exalted status of Christ," aligning with JW doctrine that Jesus is a created being rather than fully divine. BeDuhn’s silence on this insertion, despite his purported focus on linguistic accuracy, betrays a bias toward the NWT’s theological agenda, contradicting his claim of fairness. Similarly, in Colossians 1:15-18, the NWT inserts "other" four times (e.g., "by means of him all other things were created"), despite its absence in the Greek (panta di’ autou ektisthē). This is a conjectural emendation driven by bias, not manuscript evidence, noting that it distorts the text’s assertion of Christ’s role as the uncreated agent of all creation. BeDuhn’s endorsement of these alterations, without critique, further erodes his credibility as a neutral scholar, as documented in critiques that highlight his limited engagement with mainstream NT scholarship (e.g., Murray J. Harris’s Jesus as God, which BeDuhn admits ignorance of in correspondence.

  Your assertion that Trinitarian proof texts like Acts 20:28 are "dogged by textual and translation issues" overstates the case. While Acts 20:28 has variant readings (tou theou vs. tou kuriou), the majority textual tradition supports "the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood," a reading attested in early manuscripts like Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. The variant "Lord" does not negate the theological implication, as the context—Christ’s redemptive death—points to Jesus regardless. Robert Hommel notes that even with the variant, "the broader New Testament witness consistently portrays Jesus’ death as an act of divine redemption," citing Colossians 1:19-20 and Revelation 5:9. The NWT’s rendering ("the blood of his own [Son]") introduces a bracketed gloss absent from the Greek, a move BeDuhn does not critique, further illustrating his selective leniency toward NWT deviations. In contrast, texts like Romans 9:5, Titus 2:13, and Hebrews 1:8—where Christ is explicitly called theos—are textually stable and grammatically unambiguous, as per the Granville Sharp construction in Titus 2:13 (tou megalou theou kai sōtēros hēmōn Iēsou Christou), yet the NWT systematically obscures these by breaking the syntactic unity (e.g., "of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ"). BeDuhn’s defense of such renderings relies on rare exceptions to established rules, ignoring the contextual and canonical weight that favors the traditional reading, as Hofstetter and Allin both argue.

  Now, consider your cited texts—John 14:28, 1 Corinthians 11:3, 1 Timothy 2:5, and Revelation 3:12—which you claim are textually clear and uniformly translated, supporting JW Christology over Trinitarianism. This argument falters on several fronts. First, textual clarity does not equate to theological unambiguity. John 14:28 ("the Father is greater than I") reflects Jesus’ incarnate state, not an ontological inferiority, as John elsewhere affirms equality (John 5:18, "making himself equal with God"; John 10:30, "I and the Father are one"). BeDuhn’s failure to address this broader Johannine framework reveals a selective exegesis that prioritizes subordinationist/Arian readings. In 1 Corinthians 11:3 ("the head of Christ is God"), the term kephalē denotes relational authority, not essence, a distinction paralleled by "the head of the woman is man," which does not imply ontological inequality (cf. Galatians 3:28). Trinitarian theology accommodates functional subordination within the economy of salvation without compromising coequality, a nuance the NWT flattens by implication, though the text itself is not altered here.

  In 1 Timothy 2:5 ("one God and one mediator … the man Christ Jesus"), the emphasis on Jesus’ humanity as mediator does not preclude his deity, affirmed elsewhere in the Pastoral Epistles (Titus 2:13, "our great God and Savior Jesus Christ"). BeDuhn’s linguistic focus, as critiqued by Hofstetter, misses the canonical interplay that informs such passages. Revelation 3:12 ("the temple of my God") similarly reflects Christ’s incarnate role and submission in redemption, not a denial of deity, as Revelation elsewhere identifies him as "Alpha and Omega" (22:13), a title exclusive to God (1:8). The NWT’s consistent translation here aligns with its theology but does not negate the Trinitarian reading, which sees these as expressions of the Son’s economic role, not his essence. Your claim that "Trinitarians just deny they mean what they say" mischaracterizes the issue: Trinitarian exegesis interprets these texts within a holistic canonical context, not as isolated prooftexts, a method BeDuhn and the NWT conspicuously avoid.

  BeDuhn’s commendation of the NWT’s footnotes, which you highlight, is a red herring. While the 1950 NWT acknowledges alternatives (e.g., "me" in Zechariah 12:10 in early editions), its main text invariably opts for renderings that align with JW doctrine, as seen in John 1:1, Colossians 1:16, and elsewhere. This is a "fig leaf" for scholarly fairness, noting that footnotes serve as a pretense while the main text remains ideologically driven. Hofstetter similarly observes that BeDuhn’s praise overlooks the NWT’s systematic bias, a point reinforced by its handling of Acts 20:28 and Titus 2:13, where glosses and syntactic breaks distort the Greek without manuscript support. BeDuhn’s linguistic arguments, such as his misunderstanding of article usage (e.g., claiming neuter nouns are never personal, despite teknon and paidion as counterexamples), further expose his limited grasp of Greek beyond an intermediate level, as critiqued in the attached reviews.

  Your broader point—that JW Christology rests on "many texts" free of issues—ignores the counterevidence. Texts like Acts 20:28, Romans 9:5, Titus 2:13, and Hebrews 1:8 are not "uncertain" in the scholarly consensus; their textual stability and grammatical clarity affirm Christ’s deity, yet the NWT consistently adjusts them to fit an Arian framework. The pattern is unmistakable: where the Greek supports divine identity, the NWT opts for the least mainstream rendering, often without textual basis, as in Colossians 1:16 or Philippians 2:9. BeDuhn’s defense, far from proving fairness, reveals a scholar out of his depth, as numerous critics note his lack of expertise in biblical languages and failure to engage the academic consensus, a view echoed by Northern Arizona University’s own distancing from his "controversial" work.

  Finally, the appeal to BeDuhn as evidence of “balance” overlooks his selectivity. While he praises the NWT for noting “alternative” readings, he omits the far more extensive critical apparatus of mainstream translations and never tells the reader that the NWT conceals its own doctrinally driven alterations to the Hebrew text of Zechariah 12:10, where the Masoretic first-person object, the lectio difficilior, remains the best-attested reading. The Dead Sea Scroll fragment 4QXIIe is too lacunose to dislodge the MT, and the earliest Greek traditions that replace “me” with “him” betray exactly the sort of theologically motivated smoothing we observe in the Watchtower’s version. Classical text-critical principles therefore favour the reading that most embarrasses unitarianism and coheres with John 19:37’s citation of the same clause.

  In conclusion, your reliance on BeDuhn and the NWT’s supposed fairness collapses under scrutiny. The NWT’s treatment of Christologically significant texts is not a neutral or superior rendering but a systematic effort to align Scripture with JW theology, as evidenced by its insertions, glosses, and avoidance of divine implications. BeDuhn’s study, marred by linguistic oversights and theological bias, fails to substantiate your claims, while your cited texts, when read canonically, cohere with Trinitarian doctrine rather than contradict it. The real issue is not textual uncertainty in Trinitarian proof texts, but the NWT’s dogmatic necessity to sanitize them—a necessity absent from mainstream translations, Catholic or otherwise, which grapple with the text’s complexity without such ideological constraints. Hofstetter’s review, alongside Hommel’s analysis confirm this critique, exposing BeDuhn’s and the NWT’s shortcomings in a way your defense cannot credibly rebut.

  A single non-specialist’s monograph—fraught with demonstrable linguistic missteps—cannot overturn the cumulative verdict of grammarians, lexicographers and the broad sweep of patristic and modern commentary. The textual foundation for Christ’s deity is neither fragile nor peripheral: it permeates the syntax of John’s prologue, the christological hymns of Paul, the Psalter’s royal-divine oracles as read by Hebrews, and the doxologies of the Apocalypse. The NWT’s systematic softening of that witness exposes, rather than dispels, its confessional bias.
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  Zechariah 12:10 Corruption in the NWT

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here's a question for those who still support watchtower on this forum.

  why did watchtower leave out the word "me" in zech.

  zechariah 12:10 reads like this: .

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  aqwsed12345

  First of all, I'm really tired of your constant AI-ing: it doesn't matter if I formulate the statement that 2 + 2 is 4 with the help of AI, then it's true, if I formulate it without AI that it's 5, then it's not true. This is just a stupid red herring and a thought-terminating cliché. Focus only on the content and nothing else. But the fact that you're constantly forced to resort to such formal excuses to push my argument aside and avoid substantially engaging with my argument in any meaningful way also shows the weakness of your position.

  You continue to miss the central point: the issue is not the bare fact that other translations, at times, follow the same rendering as the NWT, but rather the clear, systematic pattern underlying the WTS approach to any text that potentially affirms the deity of Christ. This is not a question of isolated precedent or textual options in a vacuum. It is about consistent theological sanitization. When mainline Christian translators or committees are faced with a difficult passage, they often openly weigh stylistic, textual, or even ecumenical considerations. They might prefer a smoother Greek reading or an LXX harmonization, but their underlying theology already affirms Christ’s divinity elsewhere, and their translation does not rise or fall on a single lemma. In contrast, the NWT displays a dogmatic aversion to any wording that could be used to support the full deity of Christ—a fact documented by generations of scholars, both within and outside the WTS orbit.

  So the real question is not whether the NWT's controversial renderings have precedent in other translations, but specifically why they always choose the solution that sanitizes the deity of Christ. And here is the bias. Because other translations may do this for various reasons, which can be the subject of scholarly debate, but regarding the NWT we know exactly why they chose this: not scholarly, but for ideological reasons. There is a clear and obvious tendency when we look at the verses that are theologically relevant and controversial in relation to the NWT. And it is also obvious that when these are adressed, the typical method of WTS publications is to point out that "but this and that other (often non-mainstream, cf. Johannes Greber, Emphatic Diaglott) translation rendered it this way too, therefore we can't be wrong!" This is the point, and nothing else.

  To point out that the Watchtower “accepted” the “me” reading as a “possible” option in the 1950s is, frankly, misleading. The NWT has always maintained its official rendering as “him/the one,” relegating “me” to a footnote, never admitting it into the main text. And what about the 1984 and 2013 NWT? The very existence of the footnote in the 1950 edition does not prove impartiality; rather, it functions as a fig leaf to present an appearance of scholarly fairness while ensuring that the printed text used by the JWs for preaching and study remains ideologically safe. The history of the NWT’s translation philosophy confirms this: time and again, the main text is massaged to avoid confessional difficulties, while “alternative readings” that would support traditional Christology are kept out of sight or safely footnoted for plausibility at most. This is especially clear when one considers the evolution of WTS publications and their increasing efforts to obscure Christological implications as debates with Christians became more pointed (see the silent removal of brackets in the ‘13 NWT printings for other Christologically charged verses, such as Colossians 1:16).

  You also attempt to argue that “either reading is perfectly compatible with the Bible as a whole.” (I suppose "the Bible as a whole" here means the Arian doctrine.) This is a sweeping and unsubstantiated assertion. The entire reason Zechariah 12:10 has been so hotly debated is that the first-person “me” creates a scandal in a Arian/Unitarian reading of Scripture but finds a natural and compelling solution in the doctrine of the Trinity, wherein the Son, sharing the divine nature with the Father, truly can be “pierced.” Your fallback to the old WTS line—that “piercing Jehovah’s representative” is equivalent to piercing Jehovah—is a linguistic and theological evasion, not a real engagement with the text. The Hebrew is shocking, the context is explicit, and the history of textual emendation demonstrates discomfort with precisely this point.

  And the question remains, if they chose the mainstream solution instead of these controversial NWT renderings, it allegedly wouldn't overturn WTS doctrine either, then why do they always have to choose the "non-mainstream" rendering? For example, why do they have to minimize the number of verses in the NT that call the Son θεός (cf. Acts 20:28, Romans 9:5, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:8), if they could get away with the usual misleading excuse: "yeah, but just a Ps 82 kind little-god"?

  To claim, then, that the NWT has no special ideological stake in the rendering is simply disingenuous. Other translators and denominations are transparent about their methods and do not build their entire Christology on a single reading of Zechariah. The WTS, on the other hand, requires that “me” must not stand, or its entire theological edifice is threatened. Precisely this is why the NWT’s track record on Christologically significant verses is one of consistent dogmatic trimming, not even-handed translation. The context of Zechariah 12:10, with YHWH as both speaker and “pierced one,” does not merely present a “possible reading”—it presents a reading that directly subverts the Arian framework of the WTS.

  In sum, your reply sidesteps the actual controversy: it is not the existence of a rendering elsewhere that exposes Watchtower bias, but the pattern and the dogmatic necessity driving their choices. It is not scholarship but ideological self-preservation that dictates these decisions, as a survey of the NWT’s handling of every high Christology passage makes plain. Until you engage this fact—until you address why, out of all textual possibilities, the NWT always chooses the option least supportive of Christ’s deity, and does so as a matter of theological necessity—you have not responded to the argument at all. The real scandal, then, is not the presence of “me” in the Hebrew or its attestation in footnotes, but the lengths to which the Watchtower must go to insulate its flock from the full force of the inspired text.