Posts by aqwsed12345

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171
Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.
aqwsed12345

@Duran
Sleep as a metaphor for Death proves life after death
The claim that the dead are "sleeping" until the resurrection is based on a misunderstanding of biblical language, which often uses metaphors to describe death. Below, I will address each scripture referenced and demonstrate how the Catholic understanding of the soul's immortality and consciousness after death aligns with Scripture.
"Many of those asleep in the dust of the earth will wake up, some to everlasting life and others to reproach and everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:2)
This verse refers to the future bodily resurrection, not the state of the soul between death and resurrection. The phrase "asleep in the dust" is a metaphor for the death of the body, not the unconsciousness of the soul. The Catholic Church teaches that the body returns to the earth while the soul remains conscious (Ecclesiastes 12:7, Luke 16:19-31).
"Lazarus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him... Jesus, however, had spoken about his death." (John 11:11-13)
Jesus uses "sleep" as a metaphor for death, emphasizing the temporary nature of physical death for believers. This metaphor is common in Scripture (e.g., Matthew 27:52, Acts 7:60) but does not imply unconsciousness. The conversation with Martha in John 11:21-26 further clarifies that Jesus promises a future resurrection, yet nothing in the passage supports "soul sleep." Instead, it aligns with the Catholic understanding of a temporary separation of body and soul.
"I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered... they shouted with a loud voice... they were told to rest a little while longer." (Revelation 6:9-11)
This passage explicitly shows conscious souls in heaven. They cry out for justice, indicating awareness. The command to "rest a little while longer" refers to awaiting the final judgment, not unconsciousness. These souls are alive and actively interceding, consistent with the Catholic belief in the communion of saints.
"They came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. This is the first resurrection." (Revelation 20:4-5)
The "first resurrection" refers to the reign of martyrs and saints with Christ in heaven, not a physical resurrection on earth. This aligns with the Catholic view that those who die in God's grace immediately enter heaven (Philippians 1:21-23) or purgatory if purification is needed. The final resurrection involves the reunion of body and soul.
"The dead in Christ will rise first." (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16)
This refers to the bodily resurrection at the Second Coming of Christ. It does not contradict the Catholic teaching that souls are conscious after death. Paul’s emphasis on the resurrection pertains to the body, as the soul is already with Christ (2 Corinthians 5:8). The Catholic Church distinguishes between the intermediate state (soul in heaven, purgatory, or hell) and the final resurrection.
"The dead know nothing." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
This verse reflects the limited Old Testament understanding of the afterlife, which focused on Sheol (the grave). It does not negate the New Testament revelation of conscious existence after death. For example, Jesus speaks of Abraham, Lazarus, and the rich man as fully conscious in Luke 16:19-31. See also my opening comment HERE and THIS.
"The rich man in Hades lifted up his eyes... Lazarus was being comforted." (Luke 16:19-31)
This parable vividly illustrates the conscious existence of souls after death. The rich man and Lazarus are both aware of their respective conditions. While the parable employs symbolic imagery, it strongly implies the immediate fate of the soul after death, contradicting the idea of "soul sleep."
"I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far." (Philippians 1:21-23)
Paul clearly expects to be with Christ immediately after death, not in an unconscious state. His longing to "depart and be with Christ" demonstrates the Catholic understanding that the soul remains conscious and united with Christ in heaven before the resurrection.
"We would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." (2 Corinthians 5:8)
This verse directly opposes the "soul sleep" doctrine. Paul distinguishes between being "in the body" (earthly life) and being "with the Lord" (after death). The Catholic Church teaches that the soul of the righteous immediately enters God’s presence upon death.
"He went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison." (1 Peter 3:19)
This passage refers to Christ preaching to the spirits of the dead, further evidence of the soul's conscious existence after death. If the dead were unconscious, this event would be meaningless.
"We are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses." (Hebrews 12:1)
The "cloud of witnesses" refers to the saints in heaven who are alive and aware, interceding for us. This contradicts the idea that souls are unconscious until the resurrection.
So the Bible simply uses "sleep" as a metaphor for death to emphasize its temporary nature (e.g., Matthew 27:52; 1 Corinthians 15:6). It describes the body’s state, not the soul’s. The soul’s consciousness is affirmed in numerous passages (e.g., Luke 16:19-31, Revelation 6:9-11). In Luke 23:43, Jesus tells the repentant thief, "Today you will be with me in paradise." This promise indicates immediate entrance into God’s presence, not unconsciousness. In Matthew 17:1-8, Moses and Elijah appear alive and conversing with Jesus. This event confirms the consciousness of departed souls.
Hence the "soul sleep" doctrine is incompatible with Scripture and tradition. The Bible consistently affirms the conscious existence of souls after death. While the body rests in the grave, the soul remains alive, awaiting the final resurrection when body and soul will reunite. The Catholic teaching reflects the fullness of biblical revelation, offering hope and clarity about the afterlife.

You stated that signs are given so we will know Christ is near and that His return can only happen after the Great Tribulation and the 42-month rule of the 8th king. While this interpretation aligns with some premillennial perspectives, Catholic theology provides a broader and more nuanced understanding of these signs:
Mark 13:28-29; Luke 21:28: These passages about the fig tree emphasize vigilance and readiness, not a rigid timeline. Jesus calls believers to be prepared always, as the timing of His return remains unknown (Matthew 24:36). The purpose of signs is not to pinpoint the exact timing but to encourage perseverance and faith amidst trials.
2 Thessalonians 1:7,10: This passage speaks of relief for the faithful and judgment for the wicked at Christ’s return. While it mentions Christ's coming in glory, it does not detail a specific chronological sequence of events, such as a 42-month rule. Instead, it highlights the finality of Christ's judgment and the consummation of His kingdom.
The JW interpretation of the 8th king as a modern political entity (often the United Nations) and its supposed 42-month rule derives from speculative readings of Revelation 17:11 and Daniel’s visions. However, these interpretations lack solid historical and theological grounding.
The Catholic Church recognizes Daniel’s visions as addressing historical kingdoms (e.g., Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome) while pointing typologically to Christ’s eternal kingdom (Daniel 2:44). The focus is on the fulfillment of God’s promises in Christ, not on speculative predictions about modern geopolitical entities.
Attempts to identify the "8th king" in Revelation 17:11 with contemporary powers often ignore the apocalyptic genre's symbolic nature. This king is better understood as representing ultimate human rebellion against God, culminating in judgment, rather than a literal world power tied to a specific timeframe.
JWs tie Daniel 7, 8, and 11 to their unique eschatological timeline, associating figures like the "small horn" with modern events. However, these interpretations fail to account for the broader historical context of Daniel, which primarily addresses the struggles of God’s people under oppressive regimes before Christ’s first advent.
The "42 months" (Revelation 11:2; 13:5) is often taken by premillennial interpreters as a literal timeframe for the reign of the Antichrist or the Great Tribulation. Catholic theology approaches these passages with caution, emphasizing their symbolic meaning. The number 42 (or 1,260 days, or “a time, times, and half a time”) is symbolic, derived from Daniel 7:25 and 12:7. It represents a period of trial and persecution for God’s people but does not necessarily correspond to a literal 3.5 years. Revelation’s use of this timeframe reflects the Church’s ongoing struggle against evil forces throughout history, culminating in Christ’s final victory. It does not need to be tied to a future, precisely measured period.
The "beast" in Revelation 13 symbolizes oppressive, anti-God forces manifesting throughout history. While these forces may intensify near the end, they are not confined to a singular figure or era. Catholic tradition warns against narrowing apocalyptic imagery to rigidly defined, modern scenarios.
JWs interpret the Great Tribulation (GT) as a unique, future period of unprecedented global suffering, often tied to their eschatological timeline. However, the "Great Tribulation" described in Matthew 24:21-22 is understood in Catholic theology as encompassing both historical and eschatological dimensions. It includes past persecutions (e.g., the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD) and foreshadows the ultimate struggle between good and evil before Christ's return.
This tribulation is not limited to a specific period but reflects the ongoing reality of suffering and persecution in the Church’s life. It culminates in Christ’s return but is not necessarily tied to precise chronological events. Speculative interpretations of the Great Tribulation often lead to unnecessary fear and confusion. Catholic theology emphasizes living in readiness and trust in God’s providence, as Christ can return at any time (Mark 13:33-37).
The Catholic Church rejects attempts to predict the exact timing or sequence of end-time events, as such speculations often distort the Bible’s message and distract from the Gospel’s central call to faith, hope, and love. In Acts 1:7, Jesus explicitly states that the "times and seasons" are known only to the Father. Obsessing over dates and timelines undermines the Christian call to vigilance and trust in God’s timing. The focus of Christian eschatology is not on calculating dates but on living faithfully in anticipation of Christ’s return. This includes spreading the Gospel, serving others, and growing in holiness (Matthew 25:31-46).

In conclusion, while the timing of Christ's return remains unknown, the Church teaches that signs will precede His coming, as Scripture indicates. However, these signs should not be interpreted rigidly or tied to speculative timelines about specific geopolitical events. The Catholic understanding of Daniel, Revelation, and the Great Tribulation focuses on Christ's ultimate victory, encouraging believers to persevere in faith and avoid sensationalism. By grounding our hope in Christ rather than speculative theories, we remain faithful to the Gospel’s call to readiness and trust in God's providence.
171
Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.
aqwsed12345

@slimboyfat
While Jehovah’s Witnesses have popularized the idea of Christ as God’s first creation, this view did not originate in early Christian writings or theological treatises. Early Christian figures recognized the term "beginning" (Greek: archē) as indicative of the Logos's existence before creation rather than marking a temporal beginning or moment of creation for the Word. Attempts to interpret "beginning" as indicating Jesus as the "first creation" come more from Arianism (4th-century doctrine) and modern Jehovah's Witness interpretations than from early, orthodox Christianity.
Your interpretation that Genesis 1 refers "only" to the physical creation—excluding the spiritual realm—is not widely supported in mainstream biblical scholarship. Genesis 1:1's "heavens and earth" (shamayim and eretz in Hebrew) typically means "everything that exists," encompassing both the physical and spiritual realms as well. Early Jewish thought and rabbinic interpretations saw shamayim as inclusive of all realms beyond human experience, not merely the physical cosmos.
So Genesis 1 does use “heaven and earth” as a merism representing all creation. While Genesis 1 primarily describes the formation of the visible, material world, John 1:1-3 reveals that the Logos, preexistent and uncreated, was instrumental in creating all realms—both physical and spiritual. Colossians 1:16–17 affirms this by stating that Christ "is before all things", and all things—whether thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities—were created through him, extending the scope of his creative power beyond the physical universe. Consequently, en archē in John 1:1 follows this same understanding, signaling that the Word existed prior to the totality of creation.
The Greek grammar in John 1:1, specifically the use of the imperfect verb "ēn" (“was”), describes the Word as having continuous, ongoing existence "in the beginning" rather than marking the start of its existence. This language is markedly different from Greek constructions typically used to signify the beginning of existence. John’s use of "ēn" strongly indicates that the Logos was not brought into being but was already in existence "in the beginning," predating creation itself.
So in John 1:1, the use of "ēn" (“was”) with "en archē" (“in the beginning”), is distinct, as it emphasizes continuous existence. John uses the imperfect form "ēn," indicating that the Word already existed continuously and timelessly. This construction parallels Genesis 1:1 but with a shift in focus from the created order to the preexistent state of the Logos, suggesting an existence that transcends the start of creation.
Interpreting the Word as the first creation introduces a contradiction with John 1:3: “All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.” If Jesus were a created being, John’s wording here would be contradictory, as it would suggest self-creation—an impossible notion in logical and theological terms.
Many who argued for the Word’s creation have done so by selectively emphasizing John 1:14 ("The Word became flesh") as if this phrase implied a temporal origin for the Word. The early Church Fathers like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Athanasius consistently interpreted John 1:1 as affirming the Word’s eternal nature. They maintained that the Logos existed with the Father from eternity, which directly contradicts any notion of Jesus as a first creation. The Nicene Creed (325 AD) clarified this theological confusion, declaring the Son "begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father." This creedal formulation directly refutes the view of the Logos as the "first creation" and confirms the Son's eternal coexistence with the Father.
Thus, while there may be isolated attempts—ancient and modern—to interpret John 1:1 as implying that the Word had a beginning as the "first creation," these views stand against the language of the text, the theological tradition, and early Christian interpretations. The dominant understanding within both ancient and contemporary Christian theology sees the Logos as uncreated, eternal, and fully divine, consistent with the early Church Fathers and the doctrine articulated at Nicaea.
171
Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.
aqwsed12345
@slimboyfat
"The heavens and the earth" is a Hebrew merism, meaning the whole created world, everything that was made. The Greek phrase ἐν ἀρχῇ (en archē, "In the beginning") parallels the opening of Genesis 1:1, where it signifies the absolute beginning of all things, not the emergence of a created being. John uses ἦν (ēn, "was") in “In the beginning was the Word,” which indicates continuous existence rather than a beginning point. This verb choice emphasizes that the Word already existed in the beginning rather than coming into existence at that point.
The phrase "In the beginning" (Ἐν ἀρχῇ) in John 1:1 uses the Greek preposition "ἐν" (en) with the dative noun "ἀρχῇ" (archē), typically meaning "in the beginning" rather than "as the beginning" or "beginning of creation." The Greek here echoes the opening of Genesis 1:1 ("In the beginning God created..."), situating the Logos ("the Word") as preexistent and active at the dawn of creation itself. This usage does not imply that the Word came into existence at that point; rather, it indicates the Word already existed when creation began, emphasizing the Logos's eternal presence.
This phrase does not imply that "the Word" was 'created' "in the beginning" as if it were the first act of creation. Instead, it conveys that the Word existed in the beginning, implying an eternal, timeless existence. The early Church Fathers and ancient interpreters universally read John 1:1 as affirming the preexistence and divinity of the Word, viewing the Word as uncreated and co-eternal with the Father.
John 1:3 continues by saying, “Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.” If the Word was himself a created being, John’s logic would become incoherent because it would suggest that the Word was self-created. Instead, the passage indicates that the Word is the source of all creation, placing him outside the category of “created” things and affirming his role as the eternal Creator.
So if the Word were the "beginning" in the sense of a first creation, it would contradict this passage, which explicitly states that everything created was made through the Word. Thus, if the Word had been a creation, it would mean the Word created itself, which is logically and theologically incoherent.
Other New Testament passages align with this interpretation. Colossians 1:16-17 asserts that all things were created through Christ and that he “is before all things,” which points to his existence beyond time and creation. Hebrews 1:2-3 also emphasizes that the Son sustains all things, further supporting the understanding of the Word as eternal and uncreated.
The early Christian understanding consistently interpreted John 1:1 as affirming the Word’s eternal existence and deity. While some later sects suggested that Christ was a created being, this view was rejected as inconsistent with the apostolic teaching and the clear message of John’s Gospel. The early Church Fathers—such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Athanasius—interpreted John 1:1 as affirming the Word’s divinity and eternal existence with God. They did not consider the Word a created being or the "first creation." Instead, they viewed the Logos as eternally existing with God, of the same divine essence. The idea of the Logos as the first created being was not part of mainstream Christian teaching and was later rejected by the Nicene Creed, which clarified that the Son was "begotten, not made," emphasizing eternal generation rather than creation.
The earlier interpretations of the JWs may have explored the idea of the Logos as the first creation. However, this interpretation faces theological challenges: it introduces a duality within God that would disrupt strict monotheism by making the Word a secondary, divine figure rather than sharing fully in the essence of God. The traditional Christian doctrine of the Trinity, by contrast, holds that the Word is fully God and shares in the divine essence, avoiding any hierarchical subordination or polytheistic/henotheistic implications.
The traditional interpretation of John 1:1 as affirming the Word’s eternal existence with God is rooted in both the text itself and the early Church’s understanding. Reinterpreting it as suggesting the Word was created “at the beginning” is unsupported by the Greek grammar, context, and historical understanding of the verse.
@Duran
You asked why believers who die in a state of grace aren’t simply resurrected immediately, instead of going to heaven. Catholic teaching acknowledges that there are two distinct events: the particular judgment (occurring at death) and the general resurrection (occurring at the end of time).
John 6:39 speaks of the “last day” resurrection, and this refers to the bodily resurrection. The resurrection of the body, described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, is indeed reserved for Christ’s return, but the souls of the righteous, already in friendship with God, can enter heaven immediately after death. This aligns with Hebrews 12:23, where the “spirits of the righteous made perfect” are in the presence of God, showing that the souls of the just are with God prior to the bodily resurrection. The “last day” resurrection does not negate the reality that souls of the righteous may enter heaven immediately after death. Catholic teaching differentiates between the immediate state of the soul after death and the final resurrection of the body.
According to Philippians 1:23, Paul expresses a desire “to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.” This implies that upon death, Paul expected to be immediately with Christ, which supports the belief that a soul can be in heaven even before the final bodily resurrection.
The necessity of the resurrection on the “last day” is rooted in the Catholic belief in the resurrection of the body, not the soul. While souls of the righteous can be in heaven, they await reunion with their glorified bodies, fulfilling the biblical promise of bodily resurrection and the complete person’s restoration. The “last day” resurrection involves the reuniting of the soul with a glorified body. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that, while souls of the righteous enter heaven, their resurrection in bodily form occurs at the final resurrection (CCC 1022, 1038).
In Revelation 20:4-5, the “first resurrection” can be understood in two primary ways:
1. Spiritual Resurrection: Catholic theology interprets the “first resurrection” as spiritual—where believers are raised to new life in Christ through faith and baptism. This aligns with John 5:24-25, where those who believe “have passed from death to life.” The “first resurrection” here is spiritual, marking the transition from death to life in Christ. It’s not necessarily the bodily resurrection, which is reserved for the “last day.”
2. Martyrs’ Reward: Revelation 20 describes the souls of those who were martyred for their faith ruling with Christ, symbolizing the honor given to those who suffer for Him. The language about reigning with Christ is often viewed symbolically, referring to those who have died in faith being in the presence of God, not yet the general resurrection of all believers.
So the mention of the “first resurrection” in Revelation 20:4-5 is traditionally interpreted as a symbol of the righteous’ participation in the reign of Christ. Early Church Fathers, like Augustine, saw this “first resurrection” not as a literal bodily resurrection but as the reign of the saints with Christ in heaven before the final resurrection.
The reference to those “executed” refers to martyrs and saints who are alive in spirit with Christ, as indicated in Revelation 6:9-11, where the souls of the martyrs are seen under the altar in heaven. This implies that souls of martyrs are alive with Christ before the final bodily resurrection.
The passage from 1 Thessalonians 4 describes the “last day” or general resurrection, when all the faithful are united with their glorified bodies. The “second coming” and the “last day” are indeed the culmination of history, where all who have died in Christ will rise bodily. But this does not negate the immediate entrance of righteous souls into God’s presence after death, as shown in passages such as Luke 23:43, where Jesus promises the thief, “Today you will be with me in paradise.” Jesus’ teaching on the afterlife does not indicate that righteous souls must “sleep” until the resurrection.
So 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 describes the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ at His coming. Catholic teaching holds that this passage refers to the bodily resurrection of those who are already spiritually alive in Christ. Their souls may already be in heaven (cf. Philippians 1:23), but they will be bodily resurrected at His coming.
Jesus’ “second coming” involves the “last day,” which includes the final judgment and resurrection of the body for both the righteous and the unrighteous (cf. John 5:28-29).
Regarding your question on the “mystery” of Christ’s return, the Catholic Church maintains that while some signs are given, the timing remains unknown (Mark 13:32, Acts 1:7). Catholic theology teaches that certain signs—such as widespread evangelization, the appearance of the Antichrist, and cosmic disturbances—are indeed precursors to Christ’s return (see CCC 673-677). However, the exact timing and sequence of these signs are not fully revealed, which is why it remains a mystery. While certain events might occur, their precise fulfillment or timing can’t be pinpointed, as Matthew 24:36 emphasizes that “no one knows the day or hour.”
In Catholic understanding, these signs (wars, tribulation, and cosmic events) indicate the transition into the last things, leading to the final judgment and the new heavens and new earth (CCC 1042-1050). This new creation will come about only at the very end, after the final judgment, marking the full consummation of God’s kingdom.
So the Catholic theology affirms both the immediate presence of souls with God after death for those in grace and the future, bodily resurrection on the last day. While Revelation speaks symbolically about reigning and resurrection, it does not contradict the teaching that souls in grace enter God’s presence immediately. Lastly, the signs given by Jesus and throughout the Bible are real but are not intended to specify an exact timetable, allowing believers to live in readiness rather than speculation.
In summary, Catholic doctrine, grounded in Scripture and tradition, upholds that souls of the righteous enter heaven immediately upon death if they are in a state of perfect grace, while awaiting the bodily resurrection on the “last day.” The passages you've cited do not contradict this belief but rather align with the Church’s understanding of the resurrection and the end times.
171
Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.
aqwsed12345

@Earnest
While it’s true that the Septuagint aimed to make Hebrew scriptures accessible to Greek-speaking Jews, this does not mean the translators always captured the full range of meanings present in the Hebrew text. The translation process inevitably involves interpretation, especially when a word like qanah has multiple possible meanings (e.g., “possess,” “acquire,” “create”). The fact that ektise was chosen doesn’t eliminate the semantic flexibility of the original Hebrew term. Many scholars agree that qanah in Proverbs 8:22 can mean “possess” or “acquire,” and that it doesn’t necessarily imply a temporal creation, especially in poetic or wisdom literature.
Furthermore, the writers of the New Testament, while influenced by the LXX, often use language with deep theological nuance that requires careful interpretation. The word ektise may carry the meaning of "create" in most contexts, but it doesn’t demand a literal creation in every instance, especially when interpreting metaphorical or poetic texts.
While it’s reasonable to consider that Revelation 3:14 could echo Proverbs 8:22, it’s crucial to recognize that allusions are not always literal repetitions of meaning. Revelation often uses Old Testament imagery in symbolic ways. Proverbs 8 personifies Wisdom, a poetic figure representing God’s wisdom in creation, not an actual created being. Wisdom’s "beginning" here refers to God’s eternal, originating wisdom rather than a specific moment of creation. The same metaphorical concept could apply to Christ as the "beginning" or "source" of creation in Revelation, aligning with the understanding of archē as “origin.”
In other words, the connection to Proverbs 8:22 doesn’t require a literal interpretation that places Christ within the created order. Instead, it points to His unique, preeminent role in creation—He is the “beginning” in the sense that all things were made through Him, as stated in John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16.
Your argument assumes that the earliest readers of Revelation would have automatically associated ektise with a literal creation and understood Proverbs 8:22 similarly. However, early Christian interpretation was not monolithic. The early Jewish and Christian understanding of archē in relation to Christ evolved to emphasize His preeminence and divine agency in creation, not His creation as a creature. This is evident in the writings of early theologians who, even before Nicaea, interpreted Proverbs 8 and Revelation 3:14 in ways that affirmed Christ’s divine status.
While the New Testament writers often allude to the Old Testament, these allusions don’t dictate a single, literal interpretation. Instead, they often serve to deepen theological concepts. For example, John’s allusion to Genesis 1:1 in John 1:1 isn’t merely about temporal beginnings but about the Logos’s role in the eternal nature of God, highlighting continuity without implying literal replication.
It’s not accurate to dismiss how early Church Fathers like Athanasius and others understood these texts. The post-Nicene Fathers, as well as pre-Nicene ones, were much closer to the language, culture, and interpretive traditions of the New Testament writers than we are today. Their interpretations reflect how these passages were understood within the early Christian community, particularly in the face of heresies that misinterpreted texts like Proverbs 8:22 to diminish Christ’s divinity.
This historical context is invaluable because the early Fathers defended the eternal, divine nature of Christ against Arian interpretations that sought to make Him a created being. Their consistent interpretation of “beginning” and “firstborn” as referring to Christ’s preeminence, not literal creation, shows that the prevailing understanding in early Christianity upheld Christ’s co-eternity with the Father.
In conclusion, while ektise can mean “create,” its application in Proverbs 8:22 and Revelation 3:14 should not be isolated from the broader theological context. The New Testament writers, while referencing Old Testament language, often employed it to express deeper, theological truths about Christ’s unique role and nature. The early Christian interpretive tradition confirms that “beginning” in Revelation 3:14 is best understood as Christ’s preeminence or role as the source of creation, not as a claim that He is a created being.
171
Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.
aqwsed12345
@Duran
Response to the First Question: Is There Biblical Evidence of Humans Already in Heaven?
Yes, there is scriptural support in the New Testament indicating that human souls are in heaven. Here are some key examples:
1. Hebrews 12:1 speaks of a "great cloud of witnesses," referring to the faithful who have died, as described in Hebrews 11. This passage suggests that these faithful departed are alive in heaven and aware of God’s activity on earth.
2. Luke 23:43 records Jesus’ words to the repentant thief on the cross: “Today you will be with me in paradise.” This statement implies an immediate transition to paradise, understood in the Catholic tradition as heaven or its antechamber, after death for the repentant thief.
3. 2 Corinthians 5:8: Paul expresses confidence that to be “absent from the body” is to be “present with the Lord.” This passage indicates that upon death, those in Christ are immediately in God's presence, understood by early Christians as heaven.
4. Revelation 6:9-11 describes the souls of martyrs under the heavenly altar, asking God how long until justice is done on earth. This scene reveals that the martyrs are in God’s presence, conscious and interceding, which supports the understanding of the faithful residing in heaven.
5. Matthew 17:1-3 describes the Transfiguration, where Moses and Elijah, long dead, appear alongside Christ in a state of glory. This event is taken as a demonstration of the righteous entering into the presence of God after death.
In Catholic understanding, these passages affirm that those who have died in God’s grace are with Him in heaven and are part of the “Church Triumphant,” praying for and encouraging the faithful on earth.

Response to the Second Question: Are There Prophecies Left to be Fulfilled Before Christ’s Return?
Catholic teaching recognizes certain signs that are expected to precede the final coming of Christ, though the exact sequence and timing remain a mystery. Some signs include:
1. The Gospel Preached to All Nations: Matthew 24:14 states, "This gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." The universal proclamation of the Gospel is understood as a sign, though it remains ambiguous how fully this must be accomplished.
2. A Great Tribulation and the Appearance of the Antichrist: Matthew 24:21-24 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 speak of a period of tribulation and the revealing of a man of sin, often understood as the Antichrist, who will deceive many. Catholic tradition holds that this period precedes Christ’s final victory.
3. The Conversion of Israel: Romans 11:25-26 suggests that “all Israel will be saved” before the end. This is interpreted as a widespread conversion of the Jewish people, acknowledging Christ as the Messiah.
4. Cosmic Signs: Apocalyptic passages, such as those in Matthew 24:29-31, mention celestial disturbances (sun darkened, moon not giving light, etc.), and Luke 21:25-26 speaks of signs in the sun, moon, and stars.
While these signs are part of Catholic eschatology, the Church cautions against exact end-time speculation, emphasizing that Christ’s return will come “like a thief in the night” (1 Thessalonians 5:2), and that believers should remain always ready, without trying to pinpoint specific dates or events. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 1040) reminds us that God has not revealed the specific day or hour, encouraging Catholics to focus on faithfulness and preparedness over speculation. Thomas Aquinas writes
"When Christ shall come to judge He will appear in the form of glory, on account of the authority becoming a judge. Now it pertains to the dignity of judicial power to have certain signs that induce people to reverence and subjection: and consequently many signs will precede the advent of Christ when He shall come to judgment, in order that the hearts of men be brought to subjection to the coming judge, and be prepared for the judgment, being forewarned by those signs. But it is not easy to know what these signs may be: for the signs of which we read in the gospels, as Augustine says, writing to Hesychius about the end of the world (Ep. lxxx), refer not only to Christ's coming to judgment, but also to the time of the sack of Jerusalem, and to the coming of Christ in ceaselessly visiting His Church So that, perhaps, if we consider them carefully, we shall find that none of them refers to the coming advent, as he remarks: because these signs that are mentioned in the gospels, such as wars, fears, and so forth, have been from the beginning of the human race: unless perhaps we say that at that time they will be more prevalent: although it is uncertain in what degree this increase will foretell the imminence of the advent. [...]
According to Augustine (Ad Hesych., Ep. lxxx) towards the end of the world there will be a general persecution of the good by the wicked: so that at the same time some will fear, namely the good, and some will be secure, namely the wicked. The words: "When they shall say: Peace and security," refer to the wicked, who will pay little heed to the signs of the coming judgment: while the words of Luke 21:26, "men withering away," etc., should be referred to the good.
We may also reply that all these signs that will happen about the time of the judgment are reckoned to occur within the time occupied by the judgment, so that the judgment day contains them all. Wherefore although men be terrified by the signs appearing about the judgment day, yet before those signs begin to appear the wicked will think themselves to be in peace and security, after the death of Antichrist and before the coming of Christ, seeing that the world is not at once destroyed, as they thought hitherto. [...]
The day of the Lord is said to come as a thief, because the exact time is not known, since it will not be possible to know it from those signs: although, as we have already said, all these most manifest sings which will precede the judgment immediately may be comprised under the judgment day."
171
Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.
aqwsed12345
@Duran
At the moment of death, each person undergoes the particular judgment. This judgment is an immediate, individual assessment of the soul’s relationship with God. Based on this judgment:
- Those in a state of perfect grace and friendship with God enter heaven immediately, enjoying the beatific vision (the direct, joyful communion with God).
- Those who die in God’s grace but still need purification enter purgatory, where they are cleansed of residual sin and made ready for heaven.
- Those who have definitively rejected God through mortal sin without repentance face eternal separation from God in hell.
A nonbeliever also undergoes particular judgment immediately upon death. If they are found to have rejected God, their soul would face hell as a final separation. However, the Catholic Church also acknowledges that God’s mercy and justice are beyond human understanding. For those who, through no fault of their own, did not know Christ or the gospel but sought truth and goodness, there is hope that God may grant them salvation.
A living believer is awaiting the Second Coming of Christ, as well as the Final Judgment. Catholics believe that, in God’s time, Christ will return to fully establish His kingdom, bringing history to its fulfillment. At that time, the dead will be resurrected, and all will face the final judgment.
Catholics believe that Christ could return at any time, emphasizing the importance of being spiritually prepared. While certain signs are described in the New Testament, these are interpreted as reminders to remain vigilant and faithful, rather than as precise predictions of timing. Catholics believe we are to live in expectation, trusting in God’s timing while focusing on living out the gospel faithfully.
Catholic doctrine affirms the resurrection of the body at the end of time. At Christ’s second coming, all the dead—both righteous and unrighteous—will be raised bodily. This belief is rooted in Christ’s own resurrection and reflects the Christian understanding that human beings are a unity of body and soul. The body will be transformed and glorified, free from corruption, to share in the eternal life promised by Christ. For Catholics, the resurrection affirms that salvation encompasses the whole person and not just the soul.
Following the resurrection, will be the general judgment, where Christ will come in glory to judge all people, living and dead. This event will reveal the full scope of God’s plan, demonstrating His justice and mercy to all creation. While the particular judgment determines each person’s eternal destiny, the general judgment will reveal the ripple effects of every action across history, showing how each individual contributed to the good or the harm in God’s creation. In the final judgment, all will witness the fulfillment of justice and mercy, as well as the victory of good over evil.
Catholic eschatology looks forward to the new heaven and new earth described in Revelation, where God will dwell with humanity in a perfected, renewed creation. The ultimate destiny is not a spiritualized, disembodied existence but rather the union of heaven and earth, where all creation is reconciled and made whole in God. This vision fulfills the Lord’s Prayer: "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." In this restored creation, heaven and earth will be united, and God's presence will permeate everything, making it a place of peace, justice, and communion with Him forever.
The Catholic Church has traditionally rejected speculative predictions about the timing or specifics of the end times. Jesus himself warned against attempts to predict the day or hour of His return, stating that "no one knows" this timing except the Father (Matthew 24:36). Catholics are encouraged to live in readiness for Christ’s return by remaining faithful and growing in holiness rather than focusing on apocalyptic timelines or speculating about the sequence of events. This approach keeps the focus on the present call to follow Christ, trust in God’s plan, and leave the timing of future events to His wisdom.
In summary, Catholic eschatology centers on the certainty of God’s ultimate victory and the hope of eternal life with Him. Believers are called to prepare for their own particular judgment, await the resurrection, anticipate the general judgment, and live with hope in the new heaven and new earth, where God will be "all in all." This perspective emphasizes trust in God’s plan without needing to engage in speculative interpretations, focusing instead on the mission of living a holy life in anticipation of the fullness of God’s Kingdom.
171
Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.
aqwsed12345

@Duran
Your analogy likens God and His heavenly beings to a hive of bees, with God as the “queen” and others as “worker bees,” suggesting all heavenly beings share the same essential nature, with differences only in role. This fails to capture the unique nature of God as revealed in Scripture, where God alone is described as eternal, uncreated, and possessing the fullness of deity. In John 4:24, "God is Spirit," but the term does not imply equality of essence with all spirit beings. For instance, Hebrews 1:7, 14 distinguishes between the Son and created spirit beings, angels, who serve God but do not share His divine essence or authority. Hebrews 1:3-4 explicitly affirms Jesus as the “exact representation of His [God’s] being,” signifying a unique identity and essence that is distinct from that of created beings.
You mention that "exact representation" implies Jesus acts “on behalf of” God, but the Greek term charaktēr used here means “express image” or “exact imprint,” referring to an identity in essence, not merely function. Jesus’ relationship to the Father is distinct from mere representation or agency because He possesses the same divine nature, as seen in passages like Colossians 2:9: “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.” Therefore, Jesus’ authority and power are not borrowed or transient; they belong to Him as part of His divine identity.
So in Hebrews 1:3, the term charaktēr (χαρακτήρ) is used to describe Jesus as the “exact representation” of God’s hupostasis (ὑπόστασις), or essence. This term, historically used in Greek to refer to a precise engraving or stamp, conveys that Jesus is an exact and unique imprint of God’s nature, not a created replica but a direct and identical image of the divine essence. This makes it clear that Jesus is not merely a messenger or servant, as angels or prophets would be, but one who possesses the same divine nature as God.
The early church used hupostasis to articulate the shared essence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus, as charaktēr of God’s hupostasis, reflects and embodies God’s nature perfectly, making Him fully and truly divine, of the same substance (homoousios) as the Father. This supports the theological claim that Jesus, though distinct in personhood, is fully one with the Father in essence.
You argue that Jesus’ authority and power were granted by Jehovah, thus implying inferiority. While Jesus acknowledges receiving authority from the Father (e.g., Matthew 28:18), this does not imply He lacks divinity. In Philippians 2:6-11, we learn that Jesus, “being in very nature God,” voluntarily humbled Himself and accepted a human form, choosing to subordinate Himself for the purpose of redemption. His willing submission, even though He is equal with the Father, reflects the mystery of the Incarnation rather than a limitation of His divine nature. Furthermore, His power to judge (John 5:22-27) is integral to His divine role and identity.
In your response, you suggest that Jesus resumed a "spirit form" after His ascension, using an analogy with angels who took physical form on earth. However, Scripture presents Jesus’ resurrection body as uniquely different from temporary appearances by angels. After His resurrection, Jesus’ body is described as "imperishable" (1 Corinthians 15:42-44), signifying an eternal, glorified body that does not revert to a non-physical form. Acts 1:11 emphasizes continuity by declaring that Jesus will return “in the same way you have seen him go.” This statement affirms that His glorified body is permanent, fitting Christian hope for resurrection. Jesus’ post-resurrection interactions (Luke 24:39-43) emphasize the physical reality and permanence of His glorified body, distinct from temporary, materialized forms.
The concept that Jesus is both fully divine and fully human is not an arbitrary doctrine but essential to Christian faith and salvation (Hebrews 2:14-17). Only by possessing both natures can Jesus serve as the mediator between God and humanity (1 Timothy 2:5). This dual nature—fully God and fully man—ensures that He can accomplish redemption and fulfill the role of an eternal High Priest, sympathizing with our weaknesses (Hebrews 4:15).
You equate Jesus’ resurrected body with that of Lazarus, implying that Jesus returned in the same earthly body only to abandon it later. However, the resurrection of Jesus differs fundamentally from Lazarus’s. Lazarus was brought back to mortal life in his original, corruptible body and would eventually die again. In contrast, Jesus’ resurrection body is described as “imperishable” and “immortal” (1 Corinthians 15:42-44), one that will never decay or die. Romans 6:9 affirms, "Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.” His resurrection was not a temporary return to human life but the beginning of eternal, glorified life.
When Jesus invites his disciples to touch his hands and side in Luke 24:39 and John 20:27, he is demonstrating that he has a physical body that is still glorified. This body is not like the earthly body of Lazarus, as it transcends normal human limitations, evidenced by Jesus’ ability to appear in locked rooms (John 20:19, 26) and ascend into heaven (Acts 1:9-11) in the same glorified form.
You claim that Jesus “became a spirit being” after ascending through the clouds, suggesting a transformation into a purely spiritual form once he left their sight. However, Acts 1:9-11 does not indicate any such change. The passage describes Jesus being “taken up” in a visible, physical manner, witnessed by the apostles. The two angels present immediately clarify that Jesus “will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven,” which implies a physical return, not a spiritual or metaphorical one. This affirms that he ascended in the same glorified body in which he was resurrected, and it is this same body in which he will return.
The notion that Jesus “became a spirit being” upon leaving sight contradicts the biblical teaching of his bodily resurrection and glorified ascension. Jesus did not shed his body or become a disembodied spirit; rather, he remains incarnate, as emphasized in Philippians 3:21, which promises believers that Christ “will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body.” This continuity emphasizes that Jesus remains fully God and fully human—body and spirit—in his glorified state.
Your comparison of Jesus’ resurrection body with the physical forms of angels who appeared on earth (as in Genesis 19) misunderstands the nature of Jesus' incarnation and glorification. Angels temporarily take physical forms when interacting with humans, but these forms are not their true essence. Jesus’ incarnation, by contrast, is a permanent union of God with human nature. Colossians 2:9 states, “In him the whole fullness of Deity dwells bodily.” Jesus’ physical, glorified body is essential to his identity as the God-Man, unlike angels, who temporarily manifest in physical forms without permanently assuming human nature.
Furthermore, the Epistle to the Hebrews highlights the unique status of Jesus’ humanity: “He had to be made like his brothers in every respect” (Hebrews 2:17). This humanity was not discarded at the ascension. Jesus is unique among all beings, as he is truly God and truly human, and his resurrection affirms the permanent glorification of his humanity.
When Acts 1:11 says that Jesus will “come in the same way,” it does not suggest a temporary, physical appearance like that of angels. Instead, it points to a visible, physical return in his glorified body. The imagery of coming “in the clouds” or “on the clouds” in passages like Mark 13:26 and Revelation 1:7 symbolizes divine authority and glory, not a mere temporary physical manifestation. Jesus’ return will be both bodily and glorious, consistent with his resurrected and ascended state, not as a temporary spirit manifestation or shedding of his human nature.
Your description seems to deny the permanent reality of Jesus’ incarnation, which is central to Trinitarian belief and Christian hope. According to Christian doctrine, Jesus' bodily resurrection and ascension guarantee believers’ future resurrection. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 emphasizes that Christ is “the firstfruits” of those who have fallen asleep, meaning his resurrection is the pattern and guarantee of the resurrection of believers. If Jesus merely discarded his body, as angels discard temporary forms, then this hope is undermined. Instead, Christians believe that Jesus remains the risen, glorified God-Man who intercedes for humanity and will return in the same glorified body to judge and redeem the world.
In conclusion, the passages you reference do not imply a lesser nature or diminished status for Jesus. Instead, they emphasize Jesus' unique role as fully divine and fully human. The distinctions made in Hebrews 1 and throughout Scripture affirm Jesus' equality with God in nature, while also highlighting His willing subordination in function within the divine plan.
Your claim that Jesus became a spirit being after his ascension conflicts with the consistent biblical teaching that his resurrected, glorified body is eternal and that he remains fully incarnate. His ascension and promised return underscore that he did not abandon his humanity; instead, he raised it to a glorified, eternal state. This belief is essential to understanding Jesus’ role as the eternal Mediator and Savior, who will return in the same glorified body to fulfill God’s promises.
171
Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.
aqwsed12345
@Earnest
You draw a connection between Revelation 3:14, which refers to Christ as "the archē of the creation of God" (ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ θεοῦ), and Proverbs 8:22 (LXX), where Wisdom says, "The Lord ektise me as [not “at”!] the archē of his ways." While there is a surface-level similarity, it's important to delve into the nuances of the language and theological implications.
In Revelation 3:14, “the archē” can mean not only “the first in a sequence” but also “the source” or “origin.” In John’s writings, including his Gospel, archē often signifies origin or foundational principle (see John 1:1, "In the beginning," En archē). Thus, in Revelation, archē likely conveys Christ as the origin or source of creation, rather than a part of it. This interpretation aligns with the broader Johannine theology, where Christ is depicted as the divine Logos, existing eternally and distinct from created beings (John 1:3).
While ektise in the Septuagint (LXX) translation of Proverbs 8:22 can be rendered as “created,” we need to consider why the Hebrew term qanah (קָנָה) was translated this way in the LXX. Qanah has a broader semantic range in Hebrew, encompassing meanings like “acquire,” “possess,” or “bring forth.” Scholars have debated this translation choice, and some argue that qanah in Proverbs 8:22 could imply “possess” or “acquire” rather than “create.”
The LXX translators, possibly due to the limitations of the Greek language in capturing the full nuance of qanah, chose ektise, which indeed has a more restricted sense of “create” in Greek. This choice may reflect the translators’ interpretation rather than an inherent meaning in the original Hebrew. Therefore, while the Greek word ektise can mean “create,” the underlying Hebrew context allows for a broader range of meanings, including “possess.”
You provided several verses where ktisis (creation) and ektizo (to create) are used, suggesting a common theme of creation. However, let’s examine how these terms are used specifically in contexts referring to the order and structure of the world, rather than implying that Christ is part of creation in a temporal sense:
- Mark 10:6 and Mark 13:19 speak of “the beginning of creation,” referencing the start of the physical world.
- Romans 1:20 and Romans 8:19 use ktisis to speak of the natural world that reveals God’s invisible qualities and eagerly awaits redemption.
- Colossians 1:15, a key verse, refers to Christ as the “firstborn of all creation.” Here, prototokos (firstborn) implies preeminence or supremacy, not creation. Paul goes on to clarify in Colossians 1:16-17 that all things were created “through him and for him,” underscoring Christ’s role as the agent of creation, not as a created being.
These usages consistently show that ktisis in the New Testament refers to the created order in relation to Christ’s authority over it, rather than indicating that Christ Himself is part of the created order. When interpreting Revelation 3:14 in light of these passages, it is consistent to understand “the beginning of the creation of God” as Christ’s role in initiating and sustaining creation, not as a declaration of His own creation.
You noted that early church fathers interpreted Proverbs 8:22 as referring to Christ and that they used the LXX’s “created” language. While it’s true that church fathers like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Origen acknowledged the LXX translation, their understanding of “created” in relation to Christ varied greatly:
· Origen argued for the eternal generation of the Son, interpreting “created” in Proverbs 8 as applicable to Christ’s role in manifesting God’s wisdom to creation, not as a literal act of creation. He understood ektise metaphorically, affirming that the Son is eternally begotten, not made.
· Athanasius and others at Nicaea argued that “created” in Proverbs 8 referred to the incarnation or to Christ’s role in the created order, not His divine essence. This distinction was crucial to counter Arian arguments that claimed Christ was a creature. Athanasius emphasized that ektise in Proverbs 8 should be understood in a poetic or relational sense, affirming Christ’s divinity and co-eternity with the Father.
· Post-Nicene Fathers like Augustine and the Cappadocians continued this interpretation, seeing “created” in a metaphorical sense that underscores the Son’s unique relationship with the Father and the created order. For them, Proverbs 8 reflected Wisdom’s manifestation, not a literal beginning.
The argument that archē in Revelation 3:14 should mean “beginning” as in “first created” neglects the wider Johannine usage of the term. In John’s Gospel, archē is repeatedly used in relation to God’s eternal nature and the Logos. Understanding archē as “origin” or “source” is consistent with John 1:3, where it’s clear that “all things were made through” the Logos, who Himself is uncreated.
Thus, interpreting archē in Revelation 3:14 as implying Christ’s status as a creature conflicts with the broader Johannine theme of Christ’s preexistent, divine role in creation. This interpretation has been historically affirmed by church fathers and is reflected in doctrinal affirmations like the Nicene Creed, which calls Christ “begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father.”
In conclusion, the arguments for Christ being “the beginning of creation” as a created being are not supported by the language of Scripture when analyzed in its broader theological context. The phrase in Revelation 3:14 aligns with the interpretation of Christ as the origin and ruler of creation, not a created being. Proverbs 8:22’s use of “created” is poetic and relational, reflecting Wisdom’s role rather than a literal act of creation. Early church fathers recognized this nuance, interpreting ektise in light of Christ’s divinity and eternal relationship with the Father, a point further clarified in the doctrines developed in response to Arian controversies.
By maintaining this interpretation, we respect both the scriptural and historical context, affirming the church’s traditional understanding of Christ as the uncreated, divine Logos, eternally begotten and fully divine.
171
Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.
aqwsed12345

@Duran
You emphasized that all beings in heaven are spirit beings, not implying they are of the same divinity or status as God. However, this distinction is critical in Christian theology, especially concerning the nature of Christ. While beings in heaven may be “spirits,” the term does not imply homogeneity in essence or status. Scripture makes clear distinctions, not only in terms of created versus uncreated beings but in unique aspects of divine authority and power. Hebrews 1:3-4, for example, explains that Jesus is the “exact representation of God’s being,” establishing Him as of the same essence as God in a way no angel or created spirit is. This distinction matters, as it underscores why Jesus is worshipped and adored in a manner distinct from other spirit beings in heaven.
You mentioned that you were not implying Jesus was created. However, when discussing the term “firstborn,” it’s essential to clarify that in Scripture, “firstborn” (prototokos) often implies preeminence in rank, not necessarily birth order or creation. In Jewish and ancient cultural context, “firstborn” denotes inheritance rights, authority, and honor. Colossians 1:15, therefore, affirms Jesus’ supremacy over creation without indicating He was created. This understanding aligns with the surrounding verses (Colossians 1:16-17), which affirm that “all things were created through Him and for Him.” A created being could not be responsible for creating “all things,” as only the uncreated can hold this status.
You stated that after His 40-day period on earth post-resurrection, Jesus returned to heaven “as a spirit.” However, the biblical witness in passages like Acts 1:9-11 and Luke 24:39-43 highlights that Jesus ascended in His glorified, physical body, which is now eternal and imperishable. This body was witnessed by His disciples, emphasizing continuity rather than change. In Acts 1:11, the angel specifies that “this same Jesus” will return “in the same way you have seen him go,” implying a visible, bodily return. This continuity is crucial because Jesus retains His resurrected, glorified body, even in heaven (1 Corinthians 15:42-44), illustrating the Christian hope of bodily resurrection.
You mentioned that what matters is that events like World War III and the Great Tribulation must occur to bring about the return of Christ. While the sequence of eschatological events is significant, the identity of Christ—whether He is seen as merely the “Son of God” in a lesser sense or as fully divine—remains paramount. Christian theology teaches that Jesus’ divine and human natures are essential for His mediatorial work (1 Timothy 2:5). This dual nature—fully God and fully human—assures Christians that He has the power to redeem humanity and the authority to judge. Therefore, recognizing Jesus’ divine identity is central to understanding His role in the end times.
To summarize, the Scriptures present Jesus not as a spirit being who reverted to mere spirituality but as the eternal, incarnate Word who ascended with a glorified body and will return visibly. The continuity in His divine-human identity before and after the resurrection is vital in Christian doctrine, affirming both His divinity and His role as the awaited Redeemer.
171
Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.
aqwsed12345

@Duran
While it's true that God is spirit (John 4:24), this statement does not imply that all spiritual beings are of the same divine essence or status as God. Angels are created beings, not divine in the same way as God. Scripture clearly distinguishes God’s nature from that of created spirits, such as angels, and nowhere does it imply that angels or other spiritual beings are equal to God in essence, power, or authority. Hebrews 1:3-4 tells us that Jesus is “the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being,” which sets Him apart from all other created beings, showing that He shares in the divine essence in a unique way that angels do not.
The Bible reveals that, though Jesus took on human flesh (Philippians 2:6-8), He did not lose His divinity or revert back to a purely “spiritual” form after the resurrection. Instead, He was raised in a glorified body, still fully divine and fully human. When Jesus appeared to His disciples after His resurrection, He specifically showed them His physical wounds and ate with them to prove that He was not merely a spirit (Luke 24:39-43). This indicates that His resurrection body was glorified but still physical, which is consistent with the Christian teaching of bodily resurrection rather than a return to a purely spiritual form.
In Luke 24:39, Jesus explicitly states, “Touch me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” This verse highlights that Jesus was raised in a glorified, physical body, not as a spirit being. The resurrection was not merely spiritual but bodily, as affirmed in passages like 1 Corinthians 15:42-44 and Philippians 3:21, which speak of a transformation from a perishable body to an imperishable, glorified body. The physicality of Jesus’ resurrection is central to Christian theology, as it demonstrates the bodily resurrection that believers hope to share.
The term “firstborn” (e.g., Colossians 1:15) in Scripture does not imply that Jesus was created. In ancient contexts, "firstborn" often referred to rank and inheritance rights rather than to birth order. In the case of Jesus, “firstborn” means preeminent, indicating His supreme status over all creation, not that He is a created being. In fact, Colossians 1:16-17 clarifies that all things were created through Jesus and for Him, establishing Him as the Creator rather than a part of creation.
As mentioned, Jesus did not revert to being solely a spirit after His resurrection. His ascension into heaven (Acts 1:9-11) was in His glorified body. The angel’s statement to the apostles—“This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go”—emphasizes that He will return visibly and bodily, not merely as an invisible spirit.
The identity of Jesus as both God and the Son of God is foundational to Christian belief and deeply impacts how believers understand His authority and the significance of His return. Scripture presents Jesus as fully divine (e.g., John 1:1-3; Colossians 2:9), not merely as a high-ranking spiritual being. If Jesus were not God, His sacrifice on the cross would not suffice for the redemption of humanity, and His role as the final judge of the world (Acts 17:31; Matthew 25:31-46) would be inconsistent. His divinity assures believers of His power to save and His authority over all creation.
The doctrine of the Trinity isn’t “a later addition” but a conclusion drawn from the consistent biblical portrayal of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as sharing one divine essence while relating as distinct persons. Passages like Matthew 28:19 (“baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”) and 2 Corinthians 13:14 (“the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit”) reflect this triune relationship.
Trinitarian belief holds that Jesus is fully God and fully human, the second Person of the Trinity. Passages like John 1:1-14 affirm Jesus’ deity, stating that “the Word was God” and that “the Word became flesh.” Ignoring Jesus’ divine identity undermines the biblical presentation of who Jesus is and why he alone is qualified to save humanity from sin. When Jesus states, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30), he affirms his divine nature, making it clear that his coming is not merely as a representative of God but as God incarnate.
By emphasizing God and Jesus as separate spirit beings, you overlook the Trinitarian doctrine that includes the Holy Spirit as a distinct Person within the Godhead. According to John 14:16-17, Jesus promised that after his ascension, the Holy Spirit would come to dwell within believers, continuing God’s work on earth. This is a unique role of the Holy Spirit, demonstrating the ongoing presence of God with his people in a way that is distinct from both the Father and the Son. The New Testament consistently presents a triune God—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—working in unity to fulfill God’s redemptive plan.
Your claim that Jesus will return to earth as a spirit being lacks biblical support. Acts 1:11 describes the manner of Jesus’ return, as the angels tell the apostles, “This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.” This indicates a visible, physical return, not a mere spiritual appearance. Revelation 1:7 also states, “Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him.” These passages point to a literal, visible return of Jesus, challenging the idea that he would return as an invisible spirit.
You assert that it doesn’t matter whether “Jesus God” or “Jesus, son of God” returns, as long as the GT happens. However, the Bible emphasizes the importance of Jesus’ divine and human natures in his work of redemption. 1 Timothy 2:5 states, “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” If Jesus were not both fully divine and fully human, he could not effectively mediate between God and humanity. His dual nature is essential to his role in salvation, and to disregard this is to overlook a foundational aspect of the Christian faith.