Posts by aqwsed12345

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

aqwsed12345

@joey jojo

You noted that if the Trinity were "cut and dry," it wouldn’t require extensive explanation. However, the complexity of the Trinity arises because it attempts to articulate the nature of God—a being beyond full human comprehension. The Church Fathers recognized this difficulty and admitted that the Trinity is a mystery, but one based on revealed truths in Scripture. The extensive explanations, charts, and discussions are not because the doctrine is baseless, but because God’s infinite nature requires careful articulation to avoid misunderstanding. Concepts like God's eternity, omnipresence, and omniscience also require effort to explain, but that does not negate their validity.

You express concerns about the reliance on John’s Gospel and the role of commentators. The Gospel of John is particularly theological, emphasizing Jesus' divine nature (e.g., John 1:1, John 8:58, John 10:30). While John’s Gospel has a unique style, it is consistent with the rest of Scripture (cf. Philippians 2:6, Colossians 2:9, Hebrews 1:3). Bible commentators are not “inventing” the Trinity; they are explaining how Scripture, taken as a whole, supports the doctrine. The Trinity is a synthesis of biblical teaching, not a single verse.

The statement “the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) often raises questions, but it is not contradictory to the Trinity when understood in context. During His earthly ministry, Jesus voluntarily took on a subordinate role (Philippians 2:6-8). His statement reflects His role in the incarnation, not an eternal inequality with the Father. The Trinity teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are equal in nature (ontological equality) but distinct in roles (functional subordination). Jesus can say the Father is "greater" in terms of role without denying His own divinity.

The statement “no one knows...but the Father” (Matthew 24:36) is another common objection to the Trinity. Here’s how it can be understood. In His incarnation, Jesus voluntarily limited His knowledge in certain areas. This does not negate His divine nature but shows the humility of His human nature. In the mystery of the Incarnation, attributes of Jesus' divine and human natures are not always fully expressed. While Jesus’ divine nature knows all (John 21:17), His human nature could legitimately say, “I don’t know.”

So these statements reflect different contexts: John 1:1 establishes the eternal, divine nature of the Word (Jesus) as God, John 14:28 reflects Jesus’ incarnational role and submission during His earthly ministry. Both truths coexist without contradiction when we understand the hypostatic union: Jesus is fully God and fully man.

The doctrine of the Trinity is complex, not because it is untrue, but because it grapples with the infinite nature of God. Statements like "the Father is greater than I" and "no one knows but the Father" reflect Jesus' incarnate role, not a denial of His deity. The early Christians, through careful exegesis of Scripture, articulated the Trinity to preserve the biblical truths about God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

aqwsed12345

Credo quia absurdum?
Is the Trinity unreasonable?

*

Trinity vs. Islam

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

aqwsed12345

@peacefulpete

You stated that Philo described the Logos as uncreated yet distinct from God, drawing a parallel with the Christian description of Jesus as "begotten, not made." While this might seem similar on the surface, there is a crucial theological distinction, since Philo's Logos is simply a philosophical construct that serves as a mediating principle between the ineffable God and creation. It is an abstract, intermediary concept rooted in Hellenistic Judaism and influenced by Greek philosophy, particularly Stoicism and Platonism. Philo's Logos lacks personhood in the way Christianity understands Jesus Christ and is more akin to a divine tool or emanation than a co-equal divine person within the Godhead. In John 1:1-18, the Logos is explicitly personal and divine. "The Word was God" (kai theos ēn ho logos) is a categorical statement of the Logos' full divinity. The Logos becomes flesh in Jesus Christ (John 1:14), something entirely absent in Philo's framework. While Philo's writings provide useful context for understanding how Jewish thought interacted with Hellenism, they fall short of the unique revelation of Jesus as the incarnate Word.

@KalebOutWest

You argue that the Trinity is incompatible with Jewish monotheism, citing the Emet Ve-Emunah statement from Conservative Judaism as evidence. However, this point conflates contemporary Jewish theological positions with the broader and more diverse spectrum of Second Temple Jewish thought, which forms the context of early Christianity. During the Second Temple period, Jewish thought was not monolithic. Texts like Daniel 7:13-14 (the "Son of Man" receiving worship and dominion) and the concept of the "Two Powers in Heaven," explored by Alan Segal, suggest that early Jewish thought could accommodate a complex understanding of God's unity. The Angel of the Lord passages (e.g., Exodus 3:2-6, Genesis 16:7-13) also depict a figure who is both distinct from and identical to Yahweh, laying a foundation for Trinitarian thought. While modern Jewish groups like Conservative Judaism reject the Trinity, this is rooted in post-Christian polemics and developments within Judaism that sought to distinguish themselves from emerging Christian theology. This historical divergence does not negate the compatibility of Trinitarian doctrine with the biblical texts shared by both traditions.

You mention interfaith families and the blending of Jewish and Christian practices, suggesting that theological beliefs in these contexts are highly individual. While true on a sociological level, this point does not address the core theological issue. The question of the Trinity's compatibility with Jewish monotheism rests on scriptural and historical evidence, not contemporary interfaith practices.

You cite Acts 21, Acts 10, and Galatians 2 to argue that early Christians, including Paul, observed Jewish Law. This is a valid observation about the early Church's Jewish roots, but it does not undermine the development of Trinitarian doctrine. In fact, the New Testament reveals a tension between the continuity of Jewish practices and the transformative revelation of Jesus as the divine Son of God. Jesus reinterprets and fulfills the Law (Matthew 5:17-18), claiming authority over it as the divine Lawgiver (e.g., "Lord of the Sabbath" in Mark 2:28). While Paul respects the Law's role, he emphasizes faith in Christ as the ultimate fulfillment of God's covenant (Romans 10:4, Galatians 3:24-25). Paul's Christology, as seen in Philippians 2:6-11 and Colossians 1:15-20, affirms Jesus' divinity, consistent with Trinitarian theology.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

aqwsed12345

While Philo's writings and Jewish traditions contribute valuable context, they do not negate the unique revelation of the Trinity in Christian theology. Philo of Alexandria's description of the Logos as an intermediary between the uncreated God and creation reflects Hellenistic Jewish thought but falls short of the Christian understanding of the Logos. Philo presents the Logos as a created being, a "suppliant" or "hostage" between God and humanity.

In contrast, the Christian view of the Logos, as articulated in John 1:1-18, identifies Jesus Christ as fully God (theos) and fully man, not a mere intermediary or subordinate entity. The Johannine Logos is not "in the middle" as Philo describes but is intrinsic to the divine essence. John’s prologue states unequivocally: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God” (kai theos ēn ho logos), affirming both distinction and unity within the Godhead.

This surpasses Philo's framework and reflects the unique revelation of Christ's divine nature. While Jehovah’s Witnesses might align with Philo’s view of the Logos as neither fully divine nor fully created, this interpretation fails to account for the New Testament's depiction of Christ. The Bible ascribes to Jesus divine prerogatives—creation (Colossians 1:16-17), worship (Hebrews 1:6), forgiveness of sins (Mark 2:5-7), and eternal existence (John 8:58)—that go beyond Philo’s conception of the Logos as a subordinate entity.

You argue that the Trinity contradicts Jewish monotheism because Judaism emphasizes God's ineffability and often does not conceive of God as personal. However, this reflects modern Jewish philosophical interpretations (e.g., Spinoza or Kaplan), not necessarily the biblical or Second Temple Jewish context. In fact, Two Powers in Heaven by Alan Segal and related scholarship demonstrate that early Jewish thought entertained concepts of divine plurality. For instance:

Daniel 7:13-14 describes a "Son of Man" receiving eternal dominion and worship, which parallels New Testament Christology.
Exodus 3:2-6 and other passages depict the Angel of the Lord speaking as God Himself, yet distinct from God.
Genesis 1:26 uses plural pronouns ("Let us make man in our image"), hinting at complexity within God's unity.

These elements do not undermine monotheism but show that Jewish thought had categories that could accommodate a plurality within God. The Christian doctrine of the Trinity builds on these scriptural foundations, interpreting them in light of Christ's life, death, resurrection, and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

You claim the Trinity was not developed in consultation with Jewish writings, implying it lacks a basis in biblical revelation. This overlooks how early Christians, who were predominantly Jewish, wrestled with the implications of Jesus’ divinity and the New Testament’s testimony. John 10:30 ("I and the Father are one") and John 20:28 ("My Lord and my God") directly affirm Jesus’ divine nature. Paul’s writings, such as Philippians 2:6-11, describe Jesus as existing in the "form of God" (morphē theou) and being exalted to the divine name ("Lord," kyrios, a title used for Yahweh). The baptismal formula in Matthew 28:19 places the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit on equal footing, indicating shared divine authority. The early Church Fathers, far from “inventing” the Trinity, sought to articulate the faith handed down to them in Scripture. Their formulations were responses to heresies (e.g., Arianism) that distorted the biblical witness about God’s nature.

The claim that Jesus is not uncreated but also distinct from creation reflects a theological middle ground that lacks scriptural support. The Bible consistently portrays Jesus as eternal and uncreated. If all things were made through Christ (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17), He cannot be part of creation. Hebrews 1:3 describes Jesus as the "exact representation of God's being," affirming His divine nature. Jehovah's Witnesses’ interpretation imposes a hierarchical distinction not found in the text, diminishing the full deity of Christ and distorting the biblical teaching of His unique relationship with the Father.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

aqwsed12345

@Blotty

Origen’s condemnation of birthdays is often quoted to argue against their celebration. However, the context reveals limitations in this argument. Origen lived in a time when Christians were distancing themselves from pagan practices. His comment reflects a reaction to the extravagant, often hedonistic birthday celebrations common in Greco-Roman culture, not a blanket prohibition on all birthday observances. His critique focuses on the sinful excesses associated with certain birthday customs, not the concept of commemorating a birth itself. Origen's argument against birthdays based on Pharaoh and Herod's examples (Genesis 40:20; Mark 6:21-28) ignores that the negative aspects of those events (e.g., executions) were due to the individuals' wickedness, not the act of celebrating a birthday. The Bible does not suggest that celebrating a birthday is inherently sinful. Origen's writings are not infallible or binding for all Christians. His personal opinions do not carry the authority of Scripture or Church teaching. While influential, his views on birthdays reflect his own cultural and theological framework, not a universal Christian mandate.

Arnobius’ objection to birthdays must also be understood in context. Arnobius criticized the idolatrous and excessive practices associated with Roman birthday celebrations, which often involved sacrifices, feasting, and homage to pagan gods. His argument does not apply to modern Christian birthday celebrations, which are free from such pagan connotations. Modern birthday celebrations do not include idolatry or pagan rituals. Celebrating the gift of life given by God is not inherently sinful and can be done in a God-honoring way, focusing on gratitude rather than excess.

The argument that traditional Jewish culture avoided birthdays, and that the Bible only mentions Pharaoh’s birthday, does not provide a sound basis for forbidding birthdays. While traditional Jewish culture did not emphasize birthdays, this was a cultural choice rather than a divine command. The Mosaic Law does not explicitly forbid birthdays. Josephus’ comment about sobriety and birthdays reflects his cultural bias, not a biblical mandate. The Bible is silent on many modern customs but allows freedom in matters not explicitly commanded or forbidden (Romans 14:5-6). Pharaoh and Herod's negative actions on their birthdays are not a condemnation of the birthday itself but of the sinful behavior associated with their celebrations. The Bible contains examples of God’s people celebrating life events (e.g., weddings, feasts) with joy and gratitude. Jesus Himself attended celebrations, such as the wedding at Cana (John 2:1-11). Birthdays can be an opportunity to thank God for the gift of life and reflect on His blessings.

The claim that birthdays are rooted in paganism and therefore should be avoided is a flawed generalization. Just because a custom may have pagan roots does not mean it retains those associations. Many practices, such as wedding rings or using calendars, have historical ties to pagan cultures but are not inherently sinful. Jehovah's Witnesses themselves acknowledge this distinction in other contexts, such as their use of calendars with pagan origins (e.g., days of the week named after Norse gods). The supposed link between birthdays and Mithraism or Saturnalia is tenuous. There is no evidence that modern birthday customs, such as cakes and candles, are directly derived from these pagan festivals.

Modern birthdays bear no resemblance to the extravagant or idolatrous practices critiqued by Origen and Arnobius. Recognizing and celebrating the gift of life with gratitude to God is entirely consistent with biblical principles. Birthdays can be occasions for reflection, gratitude, and prayer, making them God-honoring events. Jehovah's Witnesses reject birthdays but celebrate anniversaries and other milestones. This inconsistency undermines their argument, as both practices commemorate significant life events.

The argument that Christians should strictly adhere to Jewish customs and calendar dates, such as Kislev 25 or Nisan 14, is problematic. Colossians 2:16-17 teaches that Christians are not bound by Jewish festivals, Sabbaths, or regulations. These were shadows of what was to come, fulfilled in Christ. Christians are free to commemorate significant events, like Jesus’ birth, without being restricted to the Jewish calendar. Quartodecimanism was an early heresy insisting that Easter must be celebrated on Nisan 14, in alignment with Jewish Passover. The Church rejected this view because it subordinated Christian celebrations to the Jewish calendar, undermining the freedom brought by Christ’s fulfillment of the Law. Similarly, insisting that Christian celebrations like Christmas align with Jewish dates misunderstands the purpose of Christian liberty. The date of December 25 was chosen based on theological symbolism (e.g., the "integral age" theory and the symbolism of light after the winter solstice), not because of adherence to a Jewish or pagan calendar.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

aqwsed12345

It is true that Judaism does not affirm the doctrine of the Trinity, but this does not invalidate its truth for Christians. The doctrine of the Trinity is a theological conclusion based on the totality of Scripture, including the New Testament revelation. While the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) emphasizes the oneness of God (Deut. 6:4), it also contains elements that hint at a complex unity in God's nature. In Genesis 1:26, God says, "Let us make man in our image," which implies a form of plurality within the divine nature. Throughout the Old Testament, the ‘Angel’ (messenger) of the Lord appears as distinct from God yet speaks and acts as God (Exod. 3:2-6; Judg. 13:21-22). Proverbs 8:22-31 describes Wisdom as a distinct person who was with God in the beginning, a passage often interpreted as prefiguring Christ. While these do not articulate the Trinity explicitly, they provide a framework that aligns with the later revelation of the Trinity in the New Testament. The full revelation of God’s triune nature came through Jesus Christ (John 1:1-18) and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; Acts 2:1-4).

The Trinity was not “invented” by the Church but articulated in response to the revelation of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Early Christians, who were predominantly Jewish, struggled to reconcile Jesus' divinity with the strict monotheism they inherited. The doctrine of the Trinity emerged as the Church wrestled with the Scriptural data, seeking to remain faithful to both the Old and New Testament teachings about God. The Trinity is not a foreign addition to Scripture but a coherent explanation of how the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are fully God while maintaining God's oneness. As Jesus declared in John 10:30, "I and the Father are one," demonstrating both distinction and unity.

Philo's writings indeed reflect Hellenized Jewish thought and describe the Logos as a divine intermediary, but they fall short of the Christian understanding of the Logos. The New Testament identifies the Logos as Jesus Christ (John 1:1, 14), who is not a mere intermediary or emanation but fully God and fully man. Philo's ideas show that the concept of divine plurality was not alien to Jewish thought, even if it was not fully developed in Judaism. The Christian understanding of Jesus as the Logos builds upon and surpasses these earlier ideas, showing a fuller revelation of God's nature as triune.

Jews historically expected a political deliverer who would restore Israel's national sovereignty. However, the Christian understanding of the Messiah as a spiritual Savior who redeems humanity from sin is deeply rooted in the Old Testament. The Suffering Servant is portrayed as one who bears the sins of many and is crushed for our iniquities—a role fulfilled by Jesus (Isaiah 53). Psalm 22 describes the suffering of the Messiah in terms strikingly similar to the crucifixion of Jesus. The "Son of Man" is given eternal dominion, a title Jesus frequently applied to Himself (Daniel 7:13-14). The divergence between Jewish and Christian views on the Messiah reflects differing interpretations of these texts, not an absence of Scriptural basis for the Christian perspective.

Christianity sees itself as the fulfillment of Jewish expectation, not a departure from it. The New Testament does not discard Jewish monotheism but expands it to include the fuller revelation of God through Christ and the Spirit. This is why early Christians, including Paul—a devout Jew—could affirm both the Shema ("The Lord our God, the Lord is one") and Jesus' divinity. Paul, for example, explicitly applies Old Testament passages about Yahweh to Jesus, such as Philippians 2:9-11, where he states that every knee will bow to Jesus, echoing Isaiah 45:23.

Jesus directly claimed divine authority, forgave sins (Mark 2:5-7), accepted worship (John 20:28), and equated Himself with the Father (John 10:30). These actions would have been blasphemous if Jesus were not truly God. The early Christians did not "make" Jesus God; they recognized Him as such based on His teachings, miracles, and resurrection.

The doctrine of the Trinity is indeed distinct from Jewish monotheism as understood today, but it is not contradictory to it. The Trinity is a deeper revelation of the same God who spoke through the Jewish Scriptures. It acknowledges the complexity and mystery of God's nature without abandoning the core monotheistic truth.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

aqwsed12345

@Earnest

You refer to Richard Carrier's argument that Polycarp likely never met the Apostle John. While it is true that some modern scholars question this connection, Carrier's conclusion is based on speculative assumptions, not concrete evidence. Carrier dismisses the possibility of John's long life because of the average lifespan of people in antiquity. However, many historical figures lived well beyond the average lifespan, especially in positions like apostleship, which involved less manual labor and better care. Tradition holds that John lived into the late first century, which aligns with Polycarp's timeline. Carrier argues that because Polycarp does not explicitly mention meeting John in his letter to the Philippians, this proves he never did. However, the purpose of Polycarp's letter was not to recount his own biography or associations but to encourage the Philippians in their faith. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Carrier dismisses Irenaeus’s testimony as "telephone-game" legend. Yet Irenaeus specifically states he personally knew Polycarp and recounts Polycarp’s connection to the apostles. This is firsthand testimony from someone in a position to know. To dismiss this without solid evidence is speculative at best.

You suggest that groups like the Gnostics could also claim lineage back to the apostles, making such claims unreliable. While it is true that many groups appealed to apostolic authority, their claims often lacked credibility for the following reasons. The proto-orthodox Christians (like Irenaeus) emphasized teachings that aligned with the apostolic writings and the Hebrew Scriptures, while groups like the Gnostics introduced esoteric and contradictory teachings. For example, Marcion rejected the Old Testament entirely, a position utterly incompatible with the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. The Gnostics often relied on later, non-apostolic texts, such as the Gospel of Thomas or other pseudepigrapha, which were written well after the apostolic era. The proto-orthodox tradition, on the other hand, preserved the apostolic writings that form the New Testament.

You correctly note that early Christianity included diverse theological views, such as adoptionism, modalism, and docetism. However, this diversity does not negate the existence of a dominant theological trajectory. The New Testament itself provides a strong foundation for the belief in Christ's deity. Passages like John 1:1-14, Philippians 2:6-11, and Colossians 1:15-20 all affirm Christ's divine nature. These texts predate the theological debates of the second and third centuries, indicating that belief in Christ’s deitywas not a later invention. Groups like the Gnostics, Marcionites, and modalists were deemed heretical not because of political expediency but because their teachings deviated from the apostolic faith. For example, modalism denies the distinct persons of the Trinity, contradicting passages like Matthew 3:16-17 (Jesus' baptism) and John 14:16-17 (Jesus promising the Spirit).

You mention that figures like Tertullian and Origen were later deemed heretical, suggesting that early orthodoxy was unstable. However Tertullian's alignment with Montanism occurred late in his life and pertained to issues of prophecy and church discipline, not core doctrines like Christ's deity or the Trinity. His earlier writings, which defended the Trinity, remain influential and orthodox. Origen was criticized centuries later for speculative theological ideas, such as the preexistence of souls, but his contributions to Trinitarian theology were foundational. Even his opponents respected his scholarship.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

aqwsed12345

@Duran

You referenced John 17:20-23, where Jesus prays for His disciples to be one “just as” He and the Father are one. This passage emphasizes the unity among believers, mirroring the unity between Jesus and the Father. It's important to recognize that the term "one" (Greek: hen) can denote unity of purpose, will, and love, rather than numerical identity. While John 17 highlights the desired unity among believers, other passages indicate a unique and profound unity between Jesus and the Father that goes beyond mere agreement or harmony.

John 10:30: "I and the Father are one." Here, the context suggests a unity of essence and nature, which is why the Jewish leaders accused Jesus of blasphemy and attempted to stone Him (John 10:31-33). They understood His claim as making Himself equal with God.
John 1:1: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." This verse affirms the divine nature of the Word (Jesus) and His coexistence with God.
Colossians 2:9: "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form." This indicates that Jesus embodies the full nature of God.

Therefore, while believers can share unity in purpose and love, the oneness between Jesus and the Father encompasses a shared divine essence, which is unique to the Godhead.

You compared human sonship, where sons possess their father's DNA, to divine sonship, suggesting that Jesus, as the Son of God, possesses God's essence. Indeed, orthodox Christian theology affirms that Jesus shares the same divine essence as the Father. However, when referring to other beings called "sons of God," such as angels (e.g., Job 38:7), it's important to distinguish between created beings and the uncreated, eternal Son. Angels are called "sons of God" in a metaphorical sense, as created beings who serve God. They do not share the divine essence but are part of creation. In contrast, Jesus is referred to as the only begotten Son (John 3:16), indicating a unique and singular relationship with the Father. The Greek term "monogenēs" means "one of a kind" or "unique," emphasizing that Jesus is not a son in the same way as angels or humans but shares the very nature of God.

Human reproduction involves the division and combination of genetic material. The offspring is separate and distinct in essence from the parents. In Christian theology, "begotten" (Greek: monogenēs) in reference to Jesus does not imply creation or division of essence. Instead, it conveys the eternal and unique relationship between the Father and the Son. The Son is eternally begotten, meaning He shares the Father’s divine essence fully and completely without division or beginning. This concept is qualitatively different from human fatherhood. Your analogy of "half DNA" misunderstands divine sonship, which is not material but metaphysical.

You mentioned that Jesus is God's "Chosen Son" among all His spirit sons. While Jesus is indeed chosen for a specific mission, the New Testament emphasizes His preexistence and divine nature.

Hebrews 1:5-6: "For to which of the angels did God ever say, 'You are my Son; today I have become your Father'? Or again, 'I will be his Father, and he will be my Son'? And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, 'Let all God's angels worship him.'"

This passage distinguishes Jesus from all the angels, affirming His superiority and divinity. The fact that angels are commanded to worship Him underscores His divine status since worship is reserved for God alone. As the incarnate Christ, Jesus was indeed chosen for His mission (Isaiah 42:1, Matthew 12:18). However, this refers to His role in salvation history, not to His divine nature. Jesus’ divine nature as the eternal Word (Logos) predates His earthly mission. John 1:1-3 declares that the Word (Jesus) was both "with God" and "was God," underscoring His eternal divinity.

You referenced John 8:17-18, where Jesus says:

"In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

Your argument suggests that for there to be two witnesses, Jesus and the Father must be two separate persons, which is consistent with Trinitarian doctrine. The Trinity teaches that the Father and the Son are distinct persons within the one Godhead.

In Trinitarian theology God is one in essence but exists eternally in three distinct persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The persons of the Trinity are distinct but not separate beings. They share the same divine essence. Therefore, when Jesus refers to Himself and the Father as two witnesses, He acknowledges their distinct personhood within the unity of the Godhead. This does not violate the concept of one God but affirms the relational dynamic within the Trinity.

You provided an analogy suggesting that claiming to be both a father and a son does not make one two witnesses if one is only a single person. In human terms, being both a father and a son refers to different roles or relationships of the same individual, not separate persons. However, in the context of the Trinity, the Father and the Son are distinct persons, not merely different roles or titles of one person. This distinction allows for genuine interpersonal relationships, such as love, communication, and, as in this case, providing separate testimony.

The Bible presents a complex yet coherent picture of God's nature. From the opening of Genesis ("Let us make mankind in our image" - Genesis 1:26) to the Great Commission ("baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" - Matthew 28:19), Scripture hints at a plurality within the one God. Jesus accepts worship (Matthew 14:33), forgives sins (Mark 2:5-7), and uses the divine name "I AM" (John 8:58), all actions that signify deity. The Holy Spirit is described with personal attributes—He teaches (John 14:26), can be grieved (Ephesians 4:30), and intercedes (Romans 8:26).

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

aqwsed12345

@joey jojo

While it is true that the technical term "Trinity" as a formalized doctrine emerged later in Christian history, the foundations of Trinitarian belief are firmly rooted in the teachings of Jesus and the apostolic writings. In Matthew 28:19, Jesus commands His disciples to baptize "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." The singular "name" (not "names") underscores unity while identifying three distinct persons. In John 14:9-11, Jesus explicitly says, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father... I am in the Father, and the Father is in me." This profound unity between the Father and the Son is a cornerstone of Trinitarian theology. Paul’s letters reflect a proto-Trinitarian understanding. For instance, in 2 Corinthians 13:14, Paul speaks of "the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit," implicitly presenting a triune understanding of God. Colossians 2:9 states, "In Christ, all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form," affirming Christ's divine nature. Thus, while the formal language of the Trinity developed over time, its essence is undeniably present in the New Testament.

The Gospel of John does indeed contain some of the most explicit Christological statements, but Trinitarian ideas are not limited to John’s writings. In Mark 2:5-12, Jesus forgives sins, an act only God can perform. The scribes accuse Him of blasphemy for claiming divine authority, which He affirms by healing the paralytic. In Matthew 11:27, Jesus declares, "All things have been committed to me by my Father," emphasizing a unique and unparalleled relationship with God. The Old Testament hints at the plurality within God's unity, such as in Genesis 1:26: "Let us make mankind in our image." While not explicit, this provides groundwork for later Trinitarian understanding. As mentioned earlier, Paul frequently interweaves Father, Son, and Spirit in his writings (e.g., Romans 8:9-11). While John’s Gospel certainly contributes significantly to Christology, the Trinitarian framework is supported throughout the New Testament.

While early Church Fathers, like Ignatius, Polycarp, Hippolytus, and Irenaeus were indeed influenced by Johannine theology, their writings reflect a broader consensus rooted in the entire apostolic tradition. Tertullian (c. 155–220 AD), though later than the others, coined the term "Trinitas" and provided a robust defense of the unity and distinction within the Godhead. These figures did not “invent” new theology but defended and articulated what was already present in the apostolic witness.

The doctrine of the Trinity was not a mere “invention by men” but the result of careful theological reflection on Scripture and the lived experience of the early Church. The councils that formulated the doctrine (e.g., Nicaea in 325 AD) were not creating something new but clarifying and safeguarding the apostolic faith against heretical distortions (e.g., Arianism). The enduring nature of the doctrine is not a sign of human stagnation but of its profound truth and coherence. The Trinity reflects the complexity of God’s self-revelation while preserving the monotheism central to Judeo-Christian faith.

Unlike myths about Zeus or Mars, the doctrine of the Trinity addresses profound metaphysical questions about the nature of God, the relationship between the divine and the human, and the unity and diversity within God’s being. The Trinity is not a trivial speculation but central to understanding salvation, worship, and the Christian life. It explains how God can be transcendent (Father), immanent (Son), and present (Holy Spirit) simultaneously.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

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colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

aqwsed12345

@Earnest

You are correct that early Christianity witnessed significant theological debates regarding the nature of Christ and His relationship with God. However, disagreement does not imply the absence of a foundational belief in Christ's divinity. The disputes were primarily about how to articulate that divinity within a monotheistic framework. The Logos theology, which you cite as "non-Jewish," was not an innovation but a theological reflection on scriptural truths. Even amidst debates, the vast majority of early Christians affirmed Christ's divinity, as evidenced in the writings of Ignatius of Antioch (c. 107 AD), Justin Martyr (mid-2nd century), and others long before the 4th century. What was debated was the nature of this divinity and its relationship to the Father, not its existence.

Monarchianism, particularly its modalist branch (e.g., Sabellianism), did indeed challenge the Logos theology, but it was rejected not because it was "monotheistic," but because it failed to align with the full testimony of Scripture. Modalism conflates the persons of the Trinity, denying the distinct roles of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which are evident in passages like Matthew 3:16-17 or John 14:16-17. The early church rejected Monarchianism precisely because it contradicted these biblical distinctions while attempting to preserve monotheism.

The claim that Logos theology is "non-Jewish" overlooks its roots in both Jewish thought and the Hebrew Scriptures. The Logos concept draws heavily from Proverbs 8:22-31, Genesis 1 and Psalm 33:6. Far from being alien to Judaism, the Logos theology reflects Jewish monotheism interpreted through the revelation of Christ.

While it is true that various groups, such as Marcionites, Valentinians, and Monarchians, claimed orthodoxy, the widespread acceptance of key doctrines like Christ's divinity among the majority of Christian communities shows a clear trajectory of consensus. The writings of the early church fathers combatting heresies are not evidence of chaos but of a refining process to preserve the apostolic faith. The fact that the church universally recognized these teachings and codified them in the Nicene Creed (325 AD) demonstrates the underlying continuity rather than later invention.

The Trinity doctrine was not "created" in the 4th century but clarified in response to challenges. Early Christian worship practices, such as baptizing "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19), demonstrate that Trinitarian belief was embedded in Christian practice from the beginning. The theological language (e.g., homoousios) was developed later to articulate these truths more precisely, not to invent them.

The idea that Logos theologians "suppressed" other Christianities oversimplifies history. Groups like Marcionites and Valentinians were not considered heretical because they were politically weak, but because their teachings deviated from the apostolic tradition. Marcion rejected the Old Testament and parts of the New Testament, creating a truncated canon, Valentinian Gnosticism introduced dualistic cosmologies and esoteric teachings inconsistent with the apostolic faith. The rejection of these groups was not arbitrary but rooted in their departure from the Scripture and apostolic teaching.

So while it is true that early Christianity was diverse, the idea that no dominant theological framework existed before the fourth century is misleading. The proto-orthodox position, which included the belief in the divinity of Christ and the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, was widely accepted and articulated by Church Fathers such as Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus of Lyons, and Tertullian long before the fourth century.

It is true that various groups, such as the Monarchians, opposed the Logos theology, but this does not mean all positions were equally valid or apostolic. The Church Fathers rejected these theologies because they deviated from the teachings handed down by the apostles. Dynamic monarchianism (adoptionism) claimed Jesus was a mere man "adopted" by God at his baptism. It was rejected because it denied Christ's pre-existence and divinity, as affirmed in Scriptures like John 1:1 and Colossians 1:15-17. Modalistic monarchianism (sabellianism) conflated the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit into one person, undermining the relational distinctions revealed in the New Testament (e.g., Jesus praying to the Father in John 17 or the baptismal scene in Matthew 3:16-17). These views were critiqued and corrected by early theologians because they failed to account for the full biblical revelation of God’s nature.

The assertion that claims of apostolic succession were limited "only by lack of imagination" disregards the historical evidence of how the early Church carefully preserved and transmitted its teachings. Apostolic succession was not merely a political or organizational claim but a theological safeguard. Bishops like Irenaeus emphasized succession as a way to maintain doctrinal continuity from the apostles. For example, he lists the bishops of Rome in Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 3) to demonstrate the unbroken transmission of apostolic teaching. While theological disputes existed, the early Church viewed apostolic succession as a means of ensuring unity in faith and practice, distinguishing it from sectarian groups like the Gnostics or the Marcionites, who often disregarded apostolic teaching.

The fourth-century councils (Nicaea in AD 325 and Constantinople in AD 381) did not invent Trinitarian theology; they clarified and codified what had been believed and practiced since apostolic times. The councils responded to heresies (e.g., Arianism) that distorted Scripture's teachings on Christ's divinity. The baptismal formula in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus commands baptism "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit," reflects an early Trinitarian understanding. Early creeds, such as the Old Roman Creed (precursor to the Apostles' Creed), affirm the unity of the Godhead and the distinct roles of Father, Son, and Spirit.

@Duran

The New World Translation renders John 17:20-23 with "in union with me," which introduces a nuance not found in the Greek text. The original Greek phrase "kathōs su, pater, en emoi kago en soi" (v. 21) translates to "just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you." The phrase "en emoi" means "in me," without any implication of being merely "in union." The translation "in union with me" in the NWT reflects a theological bias, softening the deeper unity expressed in Jesus' prayer. The Greek does not qualify or dilute the unity between the Father and the Son as being only "in union." Instead, it presents an intimate, ontological unity (i.e., unity of being) between them. The phrase "in me" supports the idea that Jesus and the Father share a profound relationship consistent with their shared divine nature. By translating this as "in union with me," the NWT downplays the depth of this relationship, aligning with the Jehovah’s Witness theology that denies the deity of Christ. The unity Jesus describes between himself and the Father is unique. While believers are also called to unity (v. 23), this unity is modeled after the unique relationship between the Father and the Son, which believers share only in a secondary sense.

The acronym ΙΧΘΥΣ (Ichthys), used by early Christians, stands for "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior." This does not deny Christ’s deity; instead, it affirms his messianic identity and his role as Savior. The term "Son of God" does not imply subordination or created status but reflects his unique relationship with the Father. In Jewish thought, the "Son of God" often implied equality with God (cf. John 5:18), which is consistent with the Trinitarian understanding. In John 5:18, the Jewish leaders accuse Jesus of making himself equal with God by calling God his Father. The title "Savior" in the Old Testament is used exclusively of God (Isaiah 43:11). By attributing this title to Jesus, early Christians implicitly affirmed his deity. The early Christians used ICTHYS as a shorthand for their belief in Jesus as the divine Savior. This does not diminish his divinity but reinforces the centrality of his role in salvation.

In John 8:17-18, Jesus references the law requiring two witnesses to validate testimony (Deuteronomy 19:15). He states that he and the Father are two witnesses, affirming the distinction of persons within the Godhead, not a denial of the Trinity. Trinitarian theology does not claim that the Father and the Son are the same person. They are distinct persons who share the same divine essence. The Father testifies to the Son’s identity (e.g., at Jesus’ baptism, Matthew 3:17), and the Son testifies through his works and words. This mutual testimony fulfills the legal requirement without contradicting Trinitarian doctrine. The fact that Jesus can call the Father a separate witness emphasizes the personal distinction within the Godhead, not a denial of their shared divine essence.

The prayer for unity in John 17 is often used to argue that the Father and the Son’s oneness is no different from the unity among believers. However, this misunderstands the text. The unity between the Father and the Son is ontological (sharing the same essence), whereas the unity among believers is relational (sharing purpose and love). Jesus says, "just as we are one" (v. 22), implying believers’ unity is modeled after but not identical to the divine unity between the Father and the Son. Believers cannot share the same divine essence as the Father and the Son. The goal is for believers to reflect divine unity in their relationships, which is distinct from the intrinsic unity of the Godhead.