Posts by Hoffnung

122

Refuting the ARGUMENT BY DESIGN.

by nicolaou in

it's tiresome and it doesn't add up but it's one of the most popular arguments for god's existence, "the argument by design.

" jehovah's witnesses and other believers point out a wonder of nature like the eye and compare it to a 'lesser' mechanical wonder of human design like a camera.

the supposed conclusion is that this natural wonder is evidence of creation by a powerful designer; god.. .

Hoffnung

"The evidence screams "a naturally occurring event in response to environmental factors". The process is neither malevolent nor benevolent, bereft of intelligent intent or a pre-determined result. Intelligent design is thus reduced to remote foreknowledge at best . . . a foreknowledge that intended a struggle and fight for survival."

I agree with this, Sizemik. There is no external influence in the natural processes at the very moment. The designer, if still alive at all, is just observing at best, and very uninterested and far away at worst. Which is absolutely normal, because the balancing systems in nature are doing their job. Only human presence is messing things up.

I find the world and the life on it too beautiful and complex to believe it is merely a product of happy concidences in a goldilocks zone of the universe. It feels like the earth has won the lottery every day. I might have little convincing evidence for it, but this could not have come into existence without a designer. Everything I discover about nature confirms me in that belief. And yes that is a belief and not a fact based upon evidence. And so far I do not see a reason to change that.

122

Refuting the ARGUMENT BY DESIGN.

by nicolaou in

it's tiresome and it doesn't add up but it's one of the most popular arguments for god's existence, "the argument by design.

" jehovah's witnesses and other believers point out a wonder of nature like the eye and compare it to a 'lesser' mechanical wonder of human design like a camera.

the supposed conclusion is that this natural wonder is evidence of creation by a powerful designer; god.. .

Hoffnung

Another point I find very hard to explain without a designer, is how many complicated ecosystems have come to exist on this planet.

Wikipedia under the heading ecosystem states: Introduction of new elements into an ecosystem tend to have a disruptive effect. In some cases, this can lead to ecological collapse or "trophic cascading" and the death of many species within the ecosystem.

With other words, take away 1 element out of the ecosystem, and the rest might disappear with it.

This automatically brings up the question, how did all the parts of the ecosystem find each other in the 1st place? The explanation in wikipedia is far from giving any answer to this question, it is lacking examples to prove the points favoring evolution, and I have so far never gotten any serious answer to that at all.

More complexity in life and its ecosystems is usually detrimental for the survival and progress of a species, so the chances of just evolving without design are rather small.

122

Refuting the ARGUMENT BY DESIGN.

by nicolaou in

it's tiresome and it doesn't add up but it's one of the most popular arguments for god's existence, "the argument by design.

" jehovah's witnesses and other believers point out a wonder of nature like the eye and compare it to a 'lesser' mechanical wonder of human design like a camera.

the supposed conclusion is that this natural wonder is evidence of creation by a powerful designer; god.. .

Hoffnung

The absolute failure in the design is the human psyche. So many 1000s years of human life have been accompanied with much unnecessary suffering and it continues to exist. The designer - creator did a shabby job at best on this one. Maybe evolutionists have a good point there. The ethical boundaries a designer would have set to the mind, are missing.

122

Refuting the ARGUMENT BY DESIGN.

by nicolaou in

it's tiresome and it doesn't add up but it's one of the most popular arguments for god's existence, "the argument by design.

" jehovah's witnesses and other believers point out a wonder of nature like the eye and compare it to a 'lesser' mechanical wonder of human design like a camera.

the supposed conclusion is that this natural wonder is evidence of creation by a powerful designer; god.. .

Hoffnung

An unusual property of ice frozen at atmospheric pressure is that the solid is approximately 9% less dense than liquid water.

"Unusual"... Interesting... Is water not vital for all life?

122

Refuting the ARGUMENT BY DESIGN.

by nicolaou in

it's tiresome and it doesn't add up but it's one of the most popular arguments for god's existence, "the argument by design.

" jehovah's witnesses and other believers point out a wonder of nature like the eye and compare it to a 'lesser' mechanical wonder of human design like a camera.

the supposed conclusion is that this natural wonder is evidence of creation by a powerful designer; god.. .

Hoffnung

The God I like to believe in is an experimental architect, who had to review quite often his design, hence the various clean-ups. It might not make him a nice personality,

The mad genius, bumbling god. That's a new one.

"Not a nice personality" is not the same as "mad". The USA have quite a few politicians to prove that point.

122

Refuting the ARGUMENT BY DESIGN.

by nicolaou in

it's tiresome and it doesn't add up but it's one of the most popular arguments for god's existence, "the argument by design.

" jehovah's witnesses and other believers point out a wonder of nature like the eye and compare it to a 'lesser' mechanical wonder of human design like a camera.

the supposed conclusion is that this natural wonder is evidence of creation by a powerful designer; god.. .

Hoffnung

but why does god offer a plausible explanation at all?

Because it is very similar to something we know already, with a similar end product: a human designer. That is why it sounds plausible.

With regards to the snowflake, and many other beings, death material or alive, that come to exist without any external influence, it does not answer the questions about how the complicated circles of life in nature came to exist, with other words, who or what designed the conditions that make snow flakes build themselves? To name just one, strictly related to the snowflake, why is the specific gravity of ice lower than the SG of water, making ice cover the water and not sink in it? Most other "solid" materials are multiple times heavier than their "fluid" form. Why not so with water? Is that one of many "very lucky" but hard to explain coincidences? Can it have developed over millions of years? I think the answer is no.

In the ultimate machine design, the end product is produced continuously without any external adjusting influence, as long as the raw materials and the power supply are continuously provided. Systems in nature are very similar to that.

Yes, I absolutely agree that nobody has built the snowflake in the picture, but that proves or disproves nothing at all.

122

Refuting the ARGUMENT BY DESIGN.

by nicolaou in

it's tiresome and it doesn't add up but it's one of the most popular arguments for god's existence, "the argument by design.

" jehovah's witnesses and other believers point out a wonder of nature like the eye and compare it to a 'lesser' mechanical wonder of human design like a camera.

the supposed conclusion is that this natural wonder is evidence of creation by a powerful designer; god.. .

Hoffnung

Hello Nic,

indeed the comparison between a rock and a watch are not strong enough to sort it out once and for all the evolution - creation issue. However, the big argument I hear coming back in documentaries about the origin of life, is that things developed over many millions of years. IMO, millions of years in itself do not make things happen, and prove nothing at all. It leaves a lot of gaps and unanswered questions. I find it at least as weak an argument as the "God designed it" argument, if not weaker. This is only amplified by the fact that all life on earth has disappeared a number of times, the youngest occurrence not that many million years ago, and life had to start from scratch again, so many million years of developments lost. The God I like to believe in is an experimental architect, who had to review quite often his design, hence the various clean-ups. It might not make him a nice personality, bit I find it more logic.

4

Watchtower Letter To President Franklin Roosevelt

by Bangalore in

.

bangalore.

Hoffnung

Do you think Roosevelt ever read or replied to this?

8

Witnesses- Please stop witnessing; you're killing people.

by mrquik in

jw
friends

as we all know, those who have for the last century heard & rejected your message have been labeled as "goats" deserving of everlasting destruction.

approximately 5 generations of humans who heard your message have been killed off by you.

on the other hand, those who didn't hear fall into the "unrighteous" catagorie & can expect a resurrection.

Hoffnung

This reasoning ain't stopping any witness. Witnesses are not interested in working out salvation for the people they meet. Otherwise they would have changed their techniques long time ago. They only go in service because they want to save THEMSELVES. They are the epitome of egoists, who want to get in paradise, no matter the cost.

30

I would like your input on this statement found in old "Zion's Day Star" advertisement. Is this true?

by AndersonsInfo in

"truth never changes, our views of it may change...".

can this argument be used by religions like watch tower that often change the slant of their doctrinal interpretations to justify the change?.

barbara.

Hoffnung

The problem with the WT Society, they never had "truth" to start with, not even to their own definition.

They claim to adhere strictly to the bible to define their doctrine. A comprehensive and contextual reading of the bible quickly reveals that they never were close to the message of the bible. So even if the viewpoint changes, they are still looking at the wrong things. Only a wholesale revision of the Watchtower doctrine to align it with the biblical message will bring improvement. As this will remove a lot of the mind-control techniques used to keep people bonded with the society, it is very unlikely this will ever happen.

Watchtower doctrines are based upon lies. As truth catches up with lies, they have to adapt it by modifying the lies, usually adding more lies to it, or by keeping silent over their past lies.