Refuting the ARGUMENT BY DESIGN.

by nicolaou 122 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou

    It's tiresome and it doesn't add up but it's one of the most popular arguments for God's existence, "the argument by design." Jehovah's Witnesses and other believers point out a wonder of nature like the eye and compare it to a 'lesser' mechanical wonder of human design like a camera. The supposed conclusion is that this natural wonder is evidence of creation by a powerful designer; God.

    When you don't examine the argument too closely it seems persuasive and we have to admit it's been powerful enough to fool intelligent people for a long time, but it suffers from some serious flaws.

    Now, I'm going to assume that most here are familiar with William Paleys "watchmaker analogy". Over 200 years ago Paley reasoned like this;

    "In crossing a heath, suppose I pitched my foot against a stone, and were asked how the stone came to be there; I might possibly answer, that, for anything I knew to the contrary, it had lain there forever: nor would it perhaps be very easy to show the absurdity of this answer. But suppose I had found a watch upon the ground, and it should be inquired how the watch happened to be in that place; I should hardly think of the answer I had before given, that for anything I knew, the watch might have always been there."

    Paleys conclusion was that;

    "Every indication of contrivance, every manifestation of design, which existed in the watch, exists in the works of nature; with the difference, on the side of nature, of being greater or more, and that in a degree which exceeds all computation."

    This is, perhaps, the most famous and well known 'argument by design' although it isn't much of an argument at all, it's more of an analogy really. Now consider this, the 'watchmaker analogy' distinguishes between natural objects and man-made objects. The argument is that if you find a watch on a beach you would immediately recognize that it stood out from the surroundings pebbles, driftwood seagulls and shellfish - it is different. So, you'd conclude it was a human artifact.

    BUT.

    At this point, the 'argument by design' suddenly requires you to believe that everything in nature shows evidence of a designer!

    The analogy contradicts itself at the most basic level. The differences previously observed between natural objects like the pebbles and the human artifact like the watch is what originally made the observer decide that the watch is designed. Those differences are rendered meaningless if we must conclude that the natural objects are designed as well.

    Think about it. Why, when you see a watch, do you conclude it is an artifact?

    It is its simplicity. Oh I know the believers here will jump all over me and say "No! The watch is complex, that's why it bears evidence of design!" WRONG! Compared to any creature on that beach, the watch is simple. Human artifacts use simple geometrical forms like straight lines and right angles that are actually quite rare in nature.

    The argument from design is also dishonestly selective. If, as many theists would argue, the complexity of the universe is evidence of design and that this proves the existence of an even more complex Designer/Creator/God why is that entity’s complexity not evidence of an even more complex deity who, in turn, will also have to be the product of an even more powerful SuperGod? And on, and on, and on . . . Ridiculous, and the arguments given against this are weak at best.

    So, just to recap, how does a person distinguish between artifacts and natural objects? Human experience and simplicity of form tell us we are seeing a watch. Conversely, we recognize pebbles, grass and crabs as natural objects. Ok? So why, dear believer do you then turn around and say that these natural objects are actually designed as well! What you are really saying is that there are no natural objects at all only artifacts created by some designer!

    The whole 'watchmaker analogy' or argument by design is ultimately self-defeating.

    And don't forget evolutionary theory - an elegantly simple explanation of the complexity we see around us. Perfectly understood natural processes will produce beautiful objects of naturally designed complexity.

  • Judge Dread
    Judge Dread

    Let us know when you find a watch that nobody made.

    JDW

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    Nice one Nic.

  • DagothUr
    DagothUr

    The watch that no one made? What a dumb comment. It's in the sky! It's the primal watch.

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou
    Let us know when you find a watch that nobody made.

    Lord save us from your followers! Judge Dread did you actually read my post? Of course the watch is made, you will never find a watch that wasn't made by someone - that's the entire point!

  • thistheother
    thistheother

    " Let us know when you find a watch that nobody made"

    Not even going to go the usual route on this one. You realize that any "this is too complex to have been designed!" argument just isn't valid when we're talking about an almighty, all-power, all-knowing, infinitely-existing god that WAS NEVER DESIGNED? How is that any bit more reasonable than even believing a dumb watch can make itself? Suddenly a god that can make an infinite number of watches (in addition to the freakin' universe) doesn't need a designer?

    Do you see now how the watchmaker argument is just lazy?

  • wobble
    wobble

    I presume these arguments are covered by Richard Dawkins in his early work "The Blind Watchmaker" which I have not read yet ?

    Certainly I have read a number of cogent arguments on the Internet that show that the argument, that proof for a designer is there in the complexity of things we find in nature, is not an argument backed by fact or logic..

    I have read too, the counter arguments from creationists of various hues, and they do not stand up.

    Thanks for your O.P Nicolau, I hope I can get my wife to read it, she uses this as a reason to believe in some form of creator/god. It is amazing too how quick JW's are to fall back on this position once you have demolished the god of the bible as a credible entitity.

    "Well, how do you account for all the wonders of nature, they can't have just happened"

    I'll just hand them a print out of your post and hope they read it (yea right, but it saves my breath !)

  • metatron
    metatron

    I think of this argument from design a bit differently.

    First, the argument from design fails on moral grounds. God designed everything? Like dinosaurs and mosquitoes and other way nasty stuff? Is he a twisted monster?

    Second, do humans have a powerful inclination to use the wrong analogy about God? Why compare God to the mind? The mind is a serial processor, basically. Most primitive people think about God as a universal spirit rather than a bearded guy on a throne. The body handles millions of reactions and feedback loops every hour, every day, without which the brain wouldn't function. The body is a massive parallel processor - and that makes a lot more sense in running the universe than a Bearded Theocrat trying to manage every subatomic particle every millisecond.

    Finally, to me the really interesting question is, not 'who designed the universe' but rather 'who or what maintains it'? Like a body, "It" must be a System - not a "Person".

    metatron

  • Heaven
    Heaven

    One of the key issues I see with the Argument By Design theory is that it doesn't hold up to an ethical design methodology.

    Where is the feedback mechanism to the designer? In any design, there must be a feedback loop -- an exchange between the users of the design and the designer itself. This is definitely missing here.

  • Nickolas
    Nickolas

    I presume these arguments are covered by Richard Dawkins in his early work "The Blind Watchmaker" which I have not read yet ?

    Quite right, wobble. Dawkins introduces Paley's analogy in Chapter 1 of the book. I'm reading it (and Hitchens' The Portable Atheist) at the moment.

    God designed everything? Like dinosaurs and mosquitoes and other way nasty stuff? Is he a twisted monster?

    And then He caused 98% of every species he created to go extinct. Yes, he is a twisted monster.

    Great OP, nic.

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