The reason I am in favor for the designer theory, is that I am a technician and have come across many complex systems. When I compare these with the systems in nature, every logic thinking vibe in me is obliged to see a great designer behind it all. Mere coincidence does not create or design anything, definitely no complex life systems.
Hoffnung
JoinedPosts by Hoffnung
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122
Refuting the ARGUMENT BY DESIGN.
by nicolaou init's tiresome and it doesn't add up but it's one of the most popular arguments for god's existence, "the argument by design.
" jehovah's witnesses and other believers point out a wonder of nature like the eye and compare it to a 'lesser' mechanical wonder of human design like a camera.
the supposed conclusion is that this natural wonder is evidence of creation by a powerful designer; god.. .
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122
Refuting the ARGUMENT BY DESIGN.
by nicolaou init's tiresome and it doesn't add up but it's one of the most popular arguments for god's existence, "the argument by design.
" jehovah's witnesses and other believers point out a wonder of nature like the eye and compare it to a 'lesser' mechanical wonder of human design like a camera.
the supposed conclusion is that this natural wonder is evidence of creation by a powerful designer; god.. .
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Hoffnung
What happened when this "one chance in a billion" took place?
What were the chemical, fysical, electrical, thermodynamic processes behind it? Why is nothing spontaneously like that ever duplicated in a lab?
energy transportation is not the same as life. The spontaneous formation of a complicated molecule like DNA, however small the chance of this happening, does not bring anything to life.
one chance in a billion explains nothing. It's a theory like the designer theory with it's own merits and problems. up for everybody to believe or to reject, usually depending on your agenda and religious or atheist past and present beliefs.
I lost my religion. I have no agenda. I just want to know.
Before I forget, I would like to thank Nickolas for taking the time to give us the excerpt out of Dawkins book.
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122
Refuting the ARGUMENT BY DESIGN.
by nicolaou init's tiresome and it doesn't add up but it's one of the most popular arguments for god's existence, "the argument by design.
" jehovah's witnesses and other believers point out a wonder of nature like the eye and compare it to a 'lesser' mechanical wonder of human design like a camera.
the supposed conclusion is that this natural wonder is evidence of creation by a powerful designer; god.. .
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Hoffnung
How many of these are in a goldilocks zone?
How many are orbiting around stable stars like the sun?
How many of these have vaccuum cleaner planets like Jupiter around?
How many have an oxygen-rich atmosphere?
How many contain water in abundance?
The answers to these questions reduce chances in considerable measure.
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122
Refuting the ARGUMENT BY DESIGN.
by nicolaou init's tiresome and it doesn't add up but it's one of the most popular arguments for god's existence, "the argument by design.
" jehovah's witnesses and other believers point out a wonder of nature like the eye and compare it to a 'lesser' mechanical wonder of human design like a camera.
the supposed conclusion is that this natural wonder is evidence of creation by a powerful designer; god.. .
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Hoffnung
Hi Nicalou,
Thank you for bringing this up. I am not a creationist and I do not like it to be compared with one. The processes in nature are what they are since many millions of years. No creator - designer - god has done anything to them since ages ago. There is no need for it for the designer to act, as the processes are almost perfect.
I even can agree with some points of the natural selection idea.
However the anthropic principle is absolute bollocks. It is as much a circular reasoning as the Witnesses use them so often. It is not because there is one chance in a billion and there are this billion planets available in the universe, that things happened this way.
I am not going to hang my understanding of the universe on something that has such a low probability of happening. You will not hang your life on an operation that has one chance in a million to succeed, are you?
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122
Refuting the ARGUMENT BY DESIGN.
by nicolaou init's tiresome and it doesn't add up but it's one of the most popular arguments for god's existence, "the argument by design.
" jehovah's witnesses and other believers point out a wonder of nature like the eye and compare it to a 'lesser' mechanical wonder of human design like a camera.
the supposed conclusion is that this natural wonder is evidence of creation by a powerful designer; god.. .
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Hoffnung
"Who says it is a "very lucky" coincidence? Perhaps things would have followed a different evolutionary path if ice sank. You assume ice is like it is because that's how life needs it to be rather than that life is like it is because that's how it works with ice."
Jackie
Just try the scenario where ice is heavier then water and all your calculations will tell you life would go extinct on most parts of this planet.
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122
Refuting the ARGUMENT BY DESIGN.
by nicolaou init's tiresome and it doesn't add up but it's one of the most popular arguments for god's existence, "the argument by design.
" jehovah's witnesses and other believers point out a wonder of nature like the eye and compare it to a 'lesser' mechanical wonder of human design like a camera.
the supposed conclusion is that this natural wonder is evidence of creation by a powerful designer; god.. .
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Hoffnung
"The evidence screams "a naturally occurring event in response to environmental factors". The process is neither malevolent nor benevolent, bereft of intelligent intent or a pre-determined result. Intelligent design is thus reduced to remote foreknowledge at best . . . a foreknowledge that intended a struggle and fight for survival."
I agree with this, Sizemik. There is no external influence in the natural processes at the very moment. The designer, if still alive at all, is just observing at best, and very uninterested and far away at worst. Which is absolutely normal, because the balancing systems in nature are doing their job. Only human presence is messing things up.
I find the world and the life on it too beautiful and complex to believe it is merely a product of happy concidences in a goldilocks zone of the universe. It feels like the earth has won the lottery every day. I might have little convincing evidence for it, but this could not have come into existence without a designer. Everything I discover about nature confirms me in that belief. And yes that is a belief and not a fact based upon evidence. And so far I do not see a reason to change that.
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122
Refuting the ARGUMENT BY DESIGN.
by nicolaou init's tiresome and it doesn't add up but it's one of the most popular arguments for god's existence, "the argument by design.
" jehovah's witnesses and other believers point out a wonder of nature like the eye and compare it to a 'lesser' mechanical wonder of human design like a camera.
the supposed conclusion is that this natural wonder is evidence of creation by a powerful designer; god.. .
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Hoffnung
Another point I find very hard to explain without a designer, is how many complicated ecosystems have come to exist on this planet.
Wikipedia under the heading ecosystem states: Introduction of new elements into an ecosystem tend to have a disruptive effect. In some cases, this can lead to ecological collapse or "trophic cascading" and the death of many species within the ecosystem.
With other words, take away 1 element out of the ecosystem, and the rest might disappear with it.
This automatically brings up the question, how did all the parts of the ecosystem find each other in the 1st place? The explanation in wikipedia is far from giving any answer to this question, it is lacking examples to prove the points favoring evolution, and I have so far never gotten any serious answer to that at all.
More complexity in life and its ecosystems is usually detrimental for the survival and progress of a species, so the chances of just evolving without design are rather small.
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122
Refuting the ARGUMENT BY DESIGN.
by nicolaou init's tiresome and it doesn't add up but it's one of the most popular arguments for god's existence, "the argument by design.
" jehovah's witnesses and other believers point out a wonder of nature like the eye and compare it to a 'lesser' mechanical wonder of human design like a camera.
the supposed conclusion is that this natural wonder is evidence of creation by a powerful designer; god.. .
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Hoffnung
The absolute failure in the design is the human psyche. So many 1000s years of human life have been accompanied with much unnecessary suffering and it continues to exist. The designer - creator did a shabby job at best on this one. Maybe evolutionists have a good point there. The ethical boundaries a designer would have set to the mind, are missing.
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122
Refuting the ARGUMENT BY DESIGN.
by nicolaou init's tiresome and it doesn't add up but it's one of the most popular arguments for god's existence, "the argument by design.
" jehovah's witnesses and other believers point out a wonder of nature like the eye and compare it to a 'lesser' mechanical wonder of human design like a camera.
the supposed conclusion is that this natural wonder is evidence of creation by a powerful designer; god.. .
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Hoffnung
An unusual property of ice frozen at atmospheric pressure is that the solid is approximately 9% less dense than liquid water.
"Unusual"... Interesting... Is water not vital for all life?
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122
Refuting the ARGUMENT BY DESIGN.
by nicolaou init's tiresome and it doesn't add up but it's one of the most popular arguments for god's existence, "the argument by design.
" jehovah's witnesses and other believers point out a wonder of nature like the eye and compare it to a 'lesser' mechanical wonder of human design like a camera.
the supposed conclusion is that this natural wonder is evidence of creation by a powerful designer; god.. .
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Hoffnung
The God I like to believe in is an experimental architect, who had to review quite often his design, hence the various clean-ups. It might not make him a nice personality,
The mad genius, bumbling god. That's a new one.
"Not a nice personality" is not the same as "mad". The USA have quite a few politicians to prove that point.