Posts by Retrovirus

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

Retrovirus

No I didn't say that. I said claiming god helped you with your sums is a massive claim of knowledge about the nature of god.

Back to sums,are we? I thought logic would try you too far. And how is that a "massive claim"? I'm only saying that I sometimes get help, inspiiration, guidance when I ask for it. Many people make this allegedly "massive claim".

It would be a great help if people would read more than once before they type.

You still haven't

1. Said why "EVERY" should be included

2. Supported your claim that PB "blithly dismissed" the deaths

3. Explained why a believer in a higher power or gold must be able to justify that beings actions.

It would be nice if you addressed the issues rather than the constant drum banging.

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

Retrovirus

Besty,

You moved the goalposts or made up an exception when your claim was shown to be false

No, that what Cofty claims. Please show me where I moved goalposts or where my claim was shown to be false.

How is that position different to 'its a mystery and I don't don't know whats going on here'?

It isn't; the only difference is in the words. I'm arguing that it's a valid position.

Belief (ie without evidence) in a higher power or god (very vague) but not able to account for its in/actions

How can any believer in a higher power understand and justify that power's actions? If they could it wouldn't be a higher power.

(again, no real clue about anything) That's a pretty soft position you argue for. sad

Guess what, we don't have all the answers! Why is ackowledging that sad? Personally I'm happy that there is so much more to be learned.

Retro

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

Retrovirus

Retro this is special pleading par excellence.

Cofty, it is nothing of the sort. How have I claimed my belief to be special?

You believe in something that you refuse to define but you are certain it gives you answers to maths questions

Do please wash your ears. I never claimed it gave answers to either sums or maths questions, rather new logical approaches. And CANNOT DEFINE does not equate to REFUSE TO DEFINE.

That is a massive claim of knowledge about this god and what he is capable of, but when it suits you you resort to claims of inscrutibility

Right, now not knowing is "a massive claim to knowledge", eh?

To summarise: It is a valid position to believe in a higer power or god but not to be able to account for what it does or doesn't do. Linking to your summary does not refute this.

Retro

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

Retrovirus

Loaded language much? Listening skills rather less?

So this undefined being that you seem reluctant to call god

Sigh. That's the point. IF THE BEING IS GREATER THAN ME HOW CAN I SAY WHAT IT IS?

He/she/it can't or won't prevent the needless death of a quarter of a million innocent men, women and children.

Sigh. That's the point. IF THE BEING IS GREATER THAN ME HOW CAN I ACCOUNT FOR ITS ACTIONS AND NON-ACTIONS?

The day you asked him to do your sums, was it 26th December 2004 by any chance?

Emotional rhetoric, always easier than addressing the point.

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

Retrovirus

It addresses the question if I am a theist, agreed? Perhaps we need to define "theist" more clearly.

You just have a vague sense of feeling inspired sometimes

Argh, no, please don't redefine without at least a question mark. I mean, I ask for advice and get it. Specific help, for example with maths problems when I was at Uni. It doesn't mean I don't use my own resources as far as possible.

Is this source of guidance the creator and sustainer of the universe

I don't know.

Do you thank him for everyday events or petition him for help?

I doubt it's a him, as there is an element of patience. Yes, I've said I ask for help when I need it. I give thanks for help and clarification and the wonder of being alive and supported, not for parking spots.

Retro

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

Retrovirus

Sure, I'll try.

I believe that I get guidance and support from something greater, outside myself. Whatever you want to call that "something". Study, prayer, and meditation all help me get this guidance.

Given the helpfulness and creativity of the guidance, I believe that it comes from something with more wisdom and integrity than myself. Not hard to imagine, as I've met countless people wiser than I. So there are some wiser still and so on.

But no more than an ant knows an elephant, I don't know if the source of this guidance and strength is bound by any restrictions, follows guidance of its own or whatever. What it could do, does or doesn't do, I cannot answer for. Infact, anyone who has faith in a higher being cannot account for that being, as by definition, it is higher.

And just to make sure you don't get carried away - guidance is guidance, not compulsion. I don't always follow it. (and don't dare insert a crybaby here! :))My decisions are my own and I'm entirely accountable for them.

Hope that helps, Retro

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

Retrovirus

Not quite Cofty,

In the summary you kepp quoting you said

It is about suffering that is not caused by humans and how theism accounts for it.

I'm saying that "Theism" - not necessarily Christianity - CANNOT account for it and therefore CANNOT BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE for it. That addresses the whole summary, not just rebutting point 14. Hope that's clearer.

As for Pelican yes he did blithely dismiss the suffering of the victims. He even added a crybaby emoticon

And I'd thought it was a CRYING emoticon, meaning sadness. Not blithe.

Retro

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

Retrovirus

I'd reiterate: a believer in a God or power greater than himself , cannot by definition account for every action or non action of that being. Being unable to do so does NOT make the believer intellectually dishonest; quite the opposite. - Retro

If you emphasise the word EVERY then I agree with you.

I would stand by my accusation that blithely dismissing the pointless death of a quarter of a million innocent people with the excuse "its a mystery", is intellectual dishonesty.

Hi Cofty,

Why the need for emphasis on "Every"?

The other is semantics. Of course, "it's a mystery" and "cannot account for" mean the same in this context. And PB never "blithely dismissed the pointless death of a quarter of a million innocent people"; those are YOUR words and spin.

Retro

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

Retrovirus

Welcome, Vivane, hadn't relised you were a newbie!

Agreed, presuming that believer were willing to admit that they don't know what their god does or doesn't do and why. Most are quite dogmatic about knowing that, so they don't get the luxury of a "get out jail free" card

Especially true of jws, with that sort of kindly, condescending smile. They have all the answers. . .but they might be different next week

I'm more familiar with more inclusive religions.

cheers, Retro

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

Retrovirus

Hi Viviane,

From Cofty's summary post on p20

I thought a summary might be helpful.

The question is simple. It isn't an attempt to use suffering to prove there is no god. It isn't even about suffering in general.

It is about suffering that is not caused by humans and how theism accounts for it.

So it's not about the details of any person's belief.

I'd reiterate: a believer in a God or power greater than himself , cannot by definition account for every action or non action of that being. Being unable to do so does NOT make the believer intellectually dishonest; quite the opposite.

Retro