The individual quoted was not referring to the beginning of Christ's PRESENCE (PAROUSIA - NT Greek), not his coming (ERCHOMAI - NT Greek). Witnesses have always taught that date when Jesus' comes at Armageddon is unknown, we don't when that will happen. In Matt. 24:3 the disciples asked Jesus for a sign of his PRESENCE, not COMING, as mistranslated by many English Bible versions (however many Lexicons and some popular translation do us the correct word presence instead of coming). I believe the composite sign indicates that Christ has been present in the special manner as taught by the Bible, and just as in the days of Noah, most people are ignoring the sign of his presence. After about 120 years or so of Noah preaching, the great flood occur. Witnesses have been pointing out from the Bible and preaching the about what Matt. 24:3 really teaches since the time of Russell, in which it is emphasized that the text in question refers to Jesus presence in kingdom power and not his future coming at Armageddon. The Emphasised Bible by Rotherman uses PRESENCE in each of the 24 times PAROUSIA occurs in the NT. Another translation that has "presence" rather than "coming" at Matthew 24:3, is Ferrar Fenton's The Complete Bible in Modern English.(1922) At Matthew 24:37 he reads; "And as in the days of Noah, so will also be the appearence of the Son of Man." This verse also plays a part in how parousia might more correctly be translated, especially in reference to the "parousia" of Jesus Christ. The two volume encyclopedia Insight on the Scriptures, published by the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, makes a valid and pertinet point regarding the meaning of the original Greek word in the article 'Presence': " That Jesus parousia is not simply a momentary coming followed by a rapid departure but is, rather, a presence covering a period of time is also indicated by his words recorded at Matthew 24:37-39 and Luke 17:26-30. Here "the days of Noah" are compared to "the presence of the Son of man" (" the days of the Son of man," in Luke's account). Jesus, therefore, does not limit the comparison just to the coming of the Deluge as a final climax during Noah's days, though he shows that his own "presence" or "days" will see a similar climax. Since "the days of Noah" actually covered a period of years, there is basis for believing that the foretold "presence [or "days"] of the Son of man" would likewise cover a period of some years, being climaxed by the destruction of those not giving heed to the opportunity afforded them to seek deliverance." The Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson reads: "....and "What will be the SIGN of THY PRESENCE[parousia].and of the CONSUMATION of the AGE?"; and "For as the DAYS of NOAH, thus will be the PRESENCE[parousia] of the SON of MAN."-Matthew 24: 3, 37. The Concordant Literal New Testament with the Keyword Concordance reads at Matthew 24:3: "....And what is the sign of Thy presence[PAROUSIA] and the conclusion of the eon?" -Concordant Publishing Concern, 1983 3rd printing. The 1901 edition of ASV includes the word "presence" in the footnotes to Matt. 24:3 and other texts. Youngs Literal Translation also uses presence. Jay Greens NT interlinear also correctly uses the word "Presence" in it interlinear reading of Matt. 24:3 and the other texts. The Spanish Version Moderna include a footnote indicating that parousia really means "presencia (presence)", not "venida" (coming). So no, the individual was not making any "breathtaking" blasphemous statement. He was telling the truth. Since while we conclude Christ's presence began in 1914, the time of his coming at Armageddon is not known to man.
davidl7
JoinedPosts by davidl7
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1914 BREATHTAKING BLASPHEME
by DannyHaszard inarticulator manipulator
the "truth" is worth lying for
breathtaking blaspheme!
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Watchtower softens position on Jehovah' Witnesses and blood transfusions? Canadian National Post Story.
by Balaamsass inwithout fanfare, jehovahs witnesses quietly soften position on blood transfusionstom blackwell, national post staff | dec 20, 2012 9:59 pm et.
more from national post staff.
calgary herald/fileslawrence hughes broke with the witnesses, and the rest of his own family, when it tried to prevent his teenage daughter, bethany, who died in 2002, from receiving a blood transfusion while being treated for cancer.twittergoogle+linkedinemailcommentsmoretumblrpinterestredditdiggfarkitstumbleuponfor years, the jehovahs witnesses fiercely held belief that blood transfusions are contrary to gods will led to emotional and very public disputes, hospitals clashing with parents over whether to infuse sick children.. that long history of messy legal confrontations appears to be vanishing, however, amid changing approaches to the issue on both sides, health-care officials say.. the churchs ban on accepting blood still stands, but some major pediatric hospitals have begun officially acknowledging the parents unorthodox beliefs, while many jehovahs witnesses are signing letters recognizing that doctors may sometimes feel obliged to transfuse, they say.. as institutions show more respect toward parents faith and try harder not to use blood, witnesses often seem eager to avoid involving child-welfare authorities to facilitate transfusions, and more accepting that canadian case law is firmly on the doctors side, some hospital officials say.. they get it that were going to transfuse where its medically necessary.
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davidl7
More & more hospitals and medical centers are respecting Jehovah's Christian Witnesses beliefs regarding the sanctity of blood and understand or respect their point of view. At the same time, there are many alternatives to blood transfusions out there, and, thanks to the Witnesses, they are now regularly used by a growing number of hospitals and have helped both Witness and non-Witness patients. Many documentaries and news reports confirm that fact. There is also a growing number of surgeons that specialize in non-blood surgery techniques, a few of these who themselves are Witnesses or were raised in the Witness faith. The Watchtower Society itself has donated several hundred blood salvage machines (which transfuses one's own blood back to his or her body during a surgical procedure) to several hospitals in many countries.
When it comes to transfusing children, it appears that more hospitals are also repecting the Witness belief, and will do everything possible to avoid a blood transfusion, opting instead for the many new alternatives that have been tried on the Witnesses for the past several years. That has been the case in hospitals in Montreal, Canada, where I know at least 3 Witness families in which there children were operated without the use of blood.
They sign a form, which has been standard for a couple years now, in which the hospital and medical staff essentially promises to use non-blood products as the alternative to blood, and may only use blood as a last resort. This specifically only applies to child medical care. The Witnesses I spoke to, view this very much as a similar case to when a Witness mother who is giving birth is in danger of losing her life or her the child aobut to be born's life. In that case, the husband and family will not choose, due to conscience reasons, who will live or who die. They will leave that decision about to the doctor, and hope that in the end, both live.
The thing is, why bother litigating a case in which in the end it appears the Witnesses will most likely lose? It has already been decided that a child old enough to make his or her own decision (14 and over), that hospitals must respect his or her beliefs. However, in the case of younger children, courts usually decide in favor of the hospital. It is best then that the Witnesses work with the hospitals to ensure that all alternatives to blood transfusions are used.
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In all US states, the Courts do NOT require two witnesses or even corroborating evidence in child sex abuse cases
by yadda yadda 2 inpages 433-437 inter alia, of the book "myers on evidence in child, domestic or elder abuse cases" fourth edition refers.. you can view this very informative material at google books.
this shows how the watchtower's strict interpretation of the biblical two-witness rule is very much out of harmony with the modern legal system in matters of child sex abuse.
j.r. brown, watchtower spokesman, is reported by the associated press on february 11, 2001 to have said:"...corroborating evidence can be used instead of a second witness to prove wrongdoing.
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davidl7
DNA evidence is used as a "second witness" by the courts. I remember serving as a juror in a grand jury, deciding whether or not to indict certain individuals. We had a case in a which a young girl accused her father of fondling her. Since a medical exam found no evidence of abuse and her parents were involved in a divorce, we did not get the 12 jurors to indict the individual. I was extremely angry since I wanted him to be indicted. 3 women kept arguing since the parents are in the process of being divorced and the medical exam showed no evidence we cannot indict. And anyway the mother was not showing too much emotion when cross-examined by the attornies. Others and myself pointed out that it was a fondling accusation, not actual penetration, etc., so there may not be any medical/DNA evidence. And indicting the individual does not necessarily mean he will in the end be convicted...but the accusation alone is enough to convict and then the court can work out other evidence during the trial. Unfortanately, due to 3 individuals, we were not able to indict. It left me feeling sick to my stomach. It is possible that the individual may have been innocent, but I felt, as instructed by the grand jury guideline, that the individual should have been indicted and allow a trial to proceed and prove his guilt or innonence.
I spoke to the prosecutor involved in the case, and she said when there is only the testimony of one individual, even if it is a child, it may be very difficult to convict one if there is no additional evidence, such as physical or DNA evidence. She said if she is being abused, then if additional evidence comes to light in the future, or if she accuses him again of a future abuse, then the case can be re-open again.
With regard to the Witnesses, although they may not congretation immediately disfellowship or expel one accused of that crime, but yet denies it, the individual's privileges will be removed pending an investigtion by secular authorities, and congregants may be privately informed by elders of the accusation. Elders can warn parents. If later on, DNA or other physical evidence comes to light, the elders will then expel the individual. Parents of an abused child will report the abuse to secular authorities who will then investigate further, including gather physical and other DNA evidence. And the evidence may serve as a "second witness".
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Jehovah's Witnesses View of Jesus Compared to the Early Church
by cofty inthe following is an extract from something i wrote 16 years ago soon after leaving the watchtower.
i am posting it because it may help honest jws consider how far their beliefs are at odds with new testament christians.
if they have "the truth" then their attitude to jesus ought to reflect that of the apostles.
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davidl7
Cofty wrote -
1] Early Christians were WITNESSES of Jesus.
On his last evening with his disciples Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit who would;
"Bear witness about me, and you in turn are to bear witness, because you have been with me from when I began." (Jhn.15:26,27)
Yes, early Christians were Witnesses of Jesus...but they were at the same time Witnesses of Jehovah. In fact, you CANNOT be a true Witness of Jesus without being a Jehovah's Witness. The NT writings clearly bear that out. The early Christian Congregation were originally made up Jews who were Jehovah's Witnesses (Isa. 43:10-12). But as followers of Jesus, they followed his example, given testimony to the Kingdom of God, making Jehovah God the Father's name known, and yes, preaching the Jesus was God's Son who was resurrected by his Father.
Acts 1:8
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth
Acts 2:32-33
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
32 This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
Acts 3:13-15
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
13 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him. 14 But you disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 but put to death the [ b ] Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses.
Acts 5:30-32
English Standard Version (ESV)
30 The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. 31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”
Acts 5:42
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
42 And every day, in the temple and [ a ] from house to house, they [ b ] kept right on teaching and [ c ] preaching Jesus as the [ d ] Christ.
Acts 20:20-21
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
20 how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you publicly andfrom house to house, 21 solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Revelation 1:2
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.
Revelation 1:9
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Patmos Vision
9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and [ a ] perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
Acts 15:14-17
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
14 Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. 15 With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
16 ‘ After these things I will return,
And I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen ,
And I will rebuild its ruins ,
And I will restore it ,
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord ,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name ,’Revelation 6:9
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
Revelation 14:1
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Lamb and the 144,000 on Mount Zion
14 Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
Hebrews 2:12
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
12 [Jesus] saying, “I will proclaim Your name to My brethren ,
In the midst of the con gregation I will sing Your praise .”John 17:6
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
Isaiah 43:10-12
Darby Translation (DARBY)
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah , and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] HE: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, I [am] Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour.
12 It is I that have declared, and have saved, and have shewed, when there was no strange [god] among you; and ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, that I [am] God.
Revelation 1:5
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins [ a ] by His blood—
Revelation 3:14
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
Luke 4:43
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
43 But He [Jesus] said to them, “I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, for I was sent for this purpose.
John 12:48-50
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50 I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”
John 18:37
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”
Hebrews 12:1-2
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
12 Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 [a ] fixing our eyes on Jesus, the [ b ] author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Acts 3:13-15
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
13 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His [ a ] servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him. 14 But you disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 but put to death the [ b ] Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses.
1 Corinthians 15:14-15
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even foundto be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.
Other quotes NASB (unless otherwise indicated)
Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdomof God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike.Acts 28:23
When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying aboutthe kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening.Acts 28:31
preaching the kingdom of God and teaching concerning the Lord Jesus Christ with all openness, unhindered.John 4:8-14
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 By this the love of God was manifested [a] in us, that God has sent His [b] only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 We have seenand testify that the Father has sent the Son to be theSavior of the world.
Yes, the first Christian Congregation were Jehovah’s Witnesses following the example of Jesus, and also testified that Jesus was SENT by God to save the world and that God resurrected Jesus. In short, you cannot be a true Witness to Jesus if you’re not a Jehovah’s Christian Witness. They also worshipped the same God and ONLY true God, which Jesus worshipped and praised. True Christians have the same God as Jesus does:
Matthew 27:46
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “ Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani ?” that is, “ My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me ?”
John 17:1-6
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
17 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I glorified You on the earth, [ b ] having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
John 20:17
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
17 Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”
Hebrews 5:7-8
New Century Version (NCV)
7 While Jesus lived on earth, he prayed to God and asked God for help. He prayed with loud cries and tears to the One who could save him from death, and his prayer was heard because he trusted God. 8 Even though Jesus was the Son of God, he learned obedience by what he suffered.
Ephesians 1:3
New Century Version (NCV)
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. In Christ, God has given us every spiritual blessing in the heavenly world.
Ephesians 1:17
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.
2 Corinthians 1:3
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
Romans 15:6
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6 so that with one accord you may with one [ a ] voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus.
Corinthians 8:6
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6 yet for us there isbut one God, the Father,from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we existthrough Him.
John 14:28
Amplified Bible (AMP)
28 You heard Me tell you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you [really] loved Me, you would have been glad, because I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater and mightier than I am.
Mark 15:34
At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, “ ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” which is translated, “MYGOD, MYGOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?”Revelation 3:12
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
12 He who overcomes, I [Jesus] will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God,and My new name.
Revelation 5:9-10
Amplified Bible (AMP)
9 And [now] they sing a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the scroll and to break the seals that are on it, for You were slain (sacrificed), and with Your blood You purchased men unto God from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 And You have made them a kingdom (royal race) and priests to our God, and they shall reign [as kings] over the earth!
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Jehovah's Witnesses: Fastest Growing Christian Group in the US
by davidl7 inthe yearbook of american and canadian churches statistics listed the jehovah's witnesses as the fastest growing christian group in the us for 4 years in a row (the 2008-2011 yearbooks).
the 2011 yearbook reported a 4.37% growth rate (based on 2010 membership figures).
according to the 2012 yearbook, the growth of the jehovah's witnesses was 1.85%, falling into 4th place.
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davidl7
The Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches statistics listed the Jehovah's Witnesses as the fastest growing Christian group in the US for 4 years in a row (the 2008-2011 Yearbooks). The 2011 Yearbook reported a 4.37% growth rate (based on 2010 membership figures). According to the 2012 Yearbook, the growth of the Jehovah's Witnesses was 1.85%, falling into 4th place. The Roman Catholic Church and the Southern Baptist Convention reported a decline in membership. The group with the largest growth rate listed in the 2012 yearbook was the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World, showing a 20% increase; however, according to a footnote in the yearbook, unlike the other churches, that growth reflects figures for that group going back a several years, to 2006, not a 1-year percentage change. If ranked by the one-year percentage, the Assemblies of God denomination would be in first place with a 3.99% gain, better than the average less than 1-percent gain in prior years. Jehovah's Witnesses would then be in 3rd place; and the National Baptist Convention on 2nd place with a 3.95% increase reported in the 2012 Yearbook (the National Baptist Convention reported decreases or no increases in the prior 4 years).
When adding all percentage figures in the last 4 years, the fastest growing Christian church is the Jehovah's Witnesses with a 10.37% growth rate increase, and the Assemblies of God falls in 2nd place with a 6.74% increase. Most of the other major churches, especially mainline Protestant churches, have consistiently reported decreases in the last 4 years.
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Preaching in vain.
by LouBelle inon my way to work (my temp job) i drove past my witness uncle.
there he was on the street preaching to a man.
i knew that stance so well, publication in hand, leaning in towards to hopefully interested person and telling your story.
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davidl7
Most Christians have joy in preaching the good news of God's Kingdom in the hands of Jesus. Jesus clearly predicted that "this good news of the Kindgome WILL BE PREACHED". So it does not matter how many negative comments people say about those who preach the good news of the Kingdom, like Jesus and his apostles did. The apostle Paul wrote in Acts 28:23: " So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening." (AV) Yes, the good news of the Kindgom, which the apostle Paul preached, included the testimony of Moses and prophets, which talked about the Messiah coming and converting the earth into a paradise. (compare Isa. 65:17-29; Isa 11:6-11; Ps. 37:10, 11, 29). Jesus himself spoke of the new world or new age to come and said the "meek will inherit the earth", (Matt. 5:5). He said to pray for his Father's kingodm to come and for his will be done on "earth and heaven." That fact the Jesus was raised for the dead, proves that he is now Messiah who will reign as God's appointed King for 1,000 years (1 Cor. 15:24-29). That is part of the good news preached by Jehovah's Christian Witnesses. (1 Cor. 15:13-15). As a result of the good news being preached, thousands upon thousands of leaving the churches of Christendom (psuedo-Christian churches), and are joing the true Christian Congregation, and are praising the God and Father of Jesus Christ, something that is never done in the churches of Christendom (Ephe. 1:3, Ephe. 1:17, 1 Cor. 1:3, 2 Peter 1:3, etc.). Yes, true Christians worship the God and Father of Jesus Christ, the One Christ cried out to as "My God, my God", as he died upon the stake/tree (Matt. 27:46). Many of my former evangelical, adventist and catholic friends tell me of the joy they felt in finding that the Jesus they read about in the Bible is truly "God's Son", not "God the Son", and they readily agreed with the what they have read from their Bibles with what the Witnesses expressed as their faith. Only true Christians accept what John 3:16, 36 really says. Those who just follow and have faith in what their Trinitanian theologians teach and preach, do not know who the "only true God, the Father, and the One who He Sent Forth, Jesus Christ", are. (John 17:3). Interesting, I was speaking to 3 former Baptists who were their first memorial of Christ's death at a Kingdom Hall. All three said they are already preaching the good news to their friends and family. One then told me, "you know, my church was considered an 'evangelical group,' but no one ever hardly preaches, even though some call themselves 'evangelical christians.' Evangelical literally means to preach the gospel or good news. From a biblical meaning, I think the Witnesses are really the true "evangelical" since they all preach the good news of the kingdom. Since I have found out about the true God and his Son Jesus, I just can't stop preaching the good news." Yes, the preaching of the Good News of the Kingdom of God is NOT IN VAIN....and no one can't stop the true Christian believer from preaching the Bible truth they have learned.
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2011 Watchtower publisher statistics with analysis
by jwfacts inthe 2012 yearbook has released the publisher statistics for the 2011 service year.
a scan of the report can be found at http://www.jwfacts.com/images/2011-publisher-report.pdf and i have started updating the graphs at http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php.
as expected, it is following on from similar trends to the last 15 years.
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davidl7
JW Facts wrote " You still seem to be missing my point. You say " many that have come to those same conclusions, have decided to join our Christian congregation." Your definition of many is far different to mine. Out of 7 billion people, less than 100,000 join that were not indoctrinated as JWs from birth. That is not many, it is an insignificant amount. Most of these have just the shallowest Biblical knowledge as received from a Watchtower publication, and just join for the companionship and paradise hope. I doubt more than a handful join each year that have a scholarly knowledge of the Bible and feel JWs are the closest represention of the Bible. For that reason, saying "many" join is no more compelling an indication of it being true than the "many" that become Scientologists, Hare Krishnas or Pentecostals."
Well that is assuming your estimate of less than 100,000 who were not raised as Witnesses is correct. Either way, even if it just 90,000 that have come in a gotten bapitized, that is still relatively many people. It also does not count the thousands of others that are joining us in the worship of Jehovah through his Son and regarding attending the meeting, some of which are actually preaching, but do not yet report or are not yet counted as a non-baptized publisher. A new Bible student has been preaching to his former Baptist church friends and family, for the past 3 months, even though he is still not reporting his preaching activity...But many that I have met have read the Bible on their and came to the conclusion that Jesus is really the Son of God, and the soul dies and is not immortal, and one must be resurrected in order to live again. Some, like a few former Adventists in my congregation, did learn the truth about what happens when we died from their former church...but they still had questions about the trinity as the read their bible. My brother-in-law said he kept reading his NT, and really could not understand where the teaching of the Trinity came from, since the most obvious teaching from the NT was the Jesus was the Son of God, and not God himself. I know of several individuals who were former clergymen of others churches, most with master of divinity degrees, so they must have at least some Bible training and at least at one point believed and agreed with Trinitarian point of view, but eventually came to the conclusion that the Witnesses were teaching the truth.
JW facts "You did not address my question about worship. I know that " proskuneo " can be translated as obeisance instead of worship, as detailed in the article that I referred you to. My point is that even JW's felt the term should be worship, and worshipped Jesus, until 1954, more than half the Watchtower history. Why would Jehovah allow such a critical error?"
I believe I did address. As explained, the Witnesses back in 1954 already understood the different shades of meaning of the word "worship". Back then when they were referring to worshipping Jesus it was in the same sense as the Israelites gave honor and bowed down to the king of Israel. It was not the same as the worship or sacred service given to Jehovah, the God of Jesus Christ. Many lexicon do agree, and rightly so, with the different meanings of the word worship. However, since the word "worship" as changed in meaning in most peoples minds, as just applying to Jehovah, it is that form of worship that we believe that only Jehovah alone must receive. As I pointed out earlier, Jason Debuhn in chapter 4 of his book, Truth In Translation, as very good write-up on the Greek work prokyneou, and how the shades of the different meaning is not fully understood today. And even the book Reasoning With the Scriptures, which I quoted earlier, states "we must understand that it is pro·sky·ne′o [worhship] with a particular attitude of heart and mind that should be directed only toward God." (p. 215)
JW facts wrote " Regarding YHWH in the NT - if it was there, and is so important, why didn't Jehovah care to have a single shred of evidence in a single manuscript remain?"
But my point was that anyone can see the shreds of evidence even in the current extant NT manuscripts. In Rev. 19:1-3 the form Hallelujah appears several times and most scholars agree that it means "Praise Jah" or "Praise Jehovah (Yahowah)". In. Rev. 14:1-3 and Rev. 5:9, 10 Jesus clearly says that not only his name would be written in the foreheads of the 144,000, but also his Father's name would be written on their forehead...which remains us of the Jewish high priests who were a turban the bore the name YHWH. So true Christians would be praisers of Jehovah and his Son Jesus. Acts 15:14 says God's people were to be a people of his name. And in Matt. 6:9 Jesus said God's name is to be kept holy. In John 17:6, 26 his said he did not hide his name, but made God's name known. In Heb. 2:12 Jesus is said to praise the name of God among the Christian congregation. So I so those as shreds of evidence, if you will, that God's name was known and used in the Christian congregation. In addition, early Jewish writings talk about the Minim that included the YHWH in "their gospels". Minim is believed to be one of the terms 1st and 2nd century Jews used for those who became Christian. If that is correct, that adds to the evidences that the name was included in the original autographs of the NT, but then later removed, sometime after 1st or 2nd centuries. Much like the LXX, which include the divine name in copies dated prior or during the 1st century, but are is later removed. I think the evidence is clear that Name must have been included since Jesus openly rejected the tradition of the Hharisees and Saduccees which made the Word of God invalid, including their laws prohibiting the pronounciation of God's name.
JW Facts wrote -You claim reading the Bible leads a person to Watchtower teachings on their own. I call you out on that. Even on absolutely critical teachings like the Resurrection and Worship of God, the Watchtower leaders do not agree. Each successive generation of Governing Body have replaced the doctrine their predecessors were so confident of, and forced their followers to believe without question at the threat of excommunication.
Yes, but even some who never joined the Witnesses, have come to the conclusion or similar conclusion to the Witnesses. Evangelical writer Edward Fudge pretty much agrees with our teaching regarding the soul and conditiion of the dead. Clark Pinnock also agrees. As well as others. Many scholars and others of come to the conclusion that the trintiy is absolutely a non-biblical teaching. Some who have come to to those conclusion have joined the ranks of the Witnesses.
True there have been some changes. But even Russell knew that as time want on, the light of the truth would keep getting brighter, meaning our understanding of the Bibe. He himself said that he would reject something that is revealed to be incorrect. But the way I see, the basic Bible truths were always taught...Jesus is the Son of God, the soul dies. the wicked will not live forever in a buring fire in eternal agony, the wicked will be destroyed and put out of existance, God's name is Jehovah, the earth will become a paradise, etc. All the fundamental teachings were always taught. If something turned out to be wrong, then it is a good thing to reject. Such as the teaching that the Great Pyramid was the Word of God in Stone...it was a good thing to reject that teaching. (Prov. 4:18)
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220
2011 Watchtower publisher statistics with analysis
by jwfacts inthe 2012 yearbook has released the publisher statistics for the 2011 service year.
a scan of the report can be found at http://www.jwfacts.com/images/2011-publisher-report.pdf and i have started updating the graphs at http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php.
as expected, it is following on from similar trends to the last 15 years.
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davidl7
JWFacts - One of the points you did not address is the inclusion of the word Jehovah in the New Testament, which gets almost universal condemnation from anyone with a knowledge of the Bible. Most people reading the Bible will read a translation with the words Lord and worship in their rightful places. That makes coming to the Watchtower understanding of Jesus almost impossible to arrive at.
Yes, I have heard the arguments against the inclusion of the divine name in the NT. But I think the NWT does have a good basis and sound scholarship for using it in the NT. Evidence clearly show that copies of the LXX that were in existance prior and during the 1st Century, all contained a form of the divine name. Now, Jesus said in Matt. 6:9 that God's name should be sanctified. He said that he does not follow the Pharisees nor the Jewish leaders that make the word of God invalid. In John 17:6, 26, he said he made "God's name known", so he did not hide God's name. At Heb. 2:12 it says that Jesus praised God's name in the congregation. In Acts 15:14 its says the congregation will be a "people for God's name" and quotes for the OT which mentions YHWH several times. Rev. 14:1-3 says that the begotten Christians will have both God's name and Jesus new name on their foreheads. And Rev. 19:1-6 says Hallelujah several times, which many Bible scholars says means "praise Yahowah (Jehovah). So the Christian Congregation will be praisers of Jehovah, folllowing Jesus sample.
Now, I know the arguement used by some. Well the name does not appear in the extant copies of the NT. The earliest existing extant copy of the NT is dated at most in the very late 1st century (although some argue it may actually be a 2nd century document). No original autograph of the NT exist. We do know, however, that copies of the LXX that existed in 1st century or prior to that included a form of the divine name, unlike the later editions and copies of the LXX, dated around the 2nd century and later, which replaced YHWH with Kyrios (Lord). Now, in view of the NT internal evidence, with the emphasis given in the NT on the name of God by Jesus and the apostles. And in view of the fact that most of the original Christians were former Jews, and must have known that Jesus name means "salvation of Jehovah." Jesus, who opened and read from the book of Isaiah, and saw the name YHWH in a 1st century scroll would not have said LORD. He made God's name known. That is clearly from the evidence in the NT text. The Christian congregation was to be a people for "God's name." (Acts 15:14). Interesting, one Jewish historical texts, refers to the "Minim" who included the Tetragrams in their gospels. Many believe that the Minim were the Christians. If that is the case, then we have some other evidence that the name did appear in the NT. And there are a few scholars, such as George Howard, who believe that the divine name was in the original autographs of the NT, especially when it quoted from the OT. but was later replaced by surrogates by Gentile Christians. There are numerous Bible versions that include the name in the NT, including several German NTs. Interestingly, the NKJV capitalizes the name LORD in the NT whenever it quotes from the OT, and preface of some editions state that LORD is a substitute for the divine name YHWH. Several Hebrew NT also use it the NT. The Jewish NT uses in the footnotes. There is, I believe, ample evidence that clearly points to the fact that the original NT did include the divine name, but just like the later editions of the LXX, the name was removed by apostate Gentile Christians, some of which despised the Jews.
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220
2011 Watchtower publisher statistics with analysis
by jwfacts inthe 2012 yearbook has released the publisher statistics for the 2011 service year.
a scan of the report can be found at http://www.jwfacts.com/images/2011-publisher-report.pdf and i have started updating the graphs at http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php.
as expected, it is following on from similar trends to the last 15 years.
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davidl7
JWFacts...just wanted to respond on some of your posts...I haven't been on this discussion board for a few days...been very busy.
JWfacts said " When you are mentioning people that come to the same conclusion, or agree with Witnesses you are misrepresenting the facts. What you mean is some people agree with a few Watchtower teachings. No one has ever come up with anything remotely close to all the current teachings. (I would like you to find someone that came up with almost any of the Watchtower interpretation of Revelation on their own, or that concluded that Jesus was not their mediator). Just because a few people think a Watchtower Scripture or doctrine is correct does not mean it is correct, or that they agree with the whole body of teachings."
No I am not representing the facts. Many of my friends and people who I have met that are now full Witnesses came to understand certain teachings of the Bible, such as like Jesus is the Son of God or that the soul dies prior to becoming Witnesses. They came to to those beliefs based on their own personal reading and studying of the Bible. True, they may have not know everything we teach, but knew and agreed with enough fundamental teachings of the Bible and knew we wer teaching the truth when they began to discuss the Bible with us, and as result decided to join the Christian Congregation. If you are refering to the books I mentioned of individuals who I stated ARE NOT JWs, but have come to same conclusion as the Witnesses due to their Bible study - those was just mentioned as an aside. I believe I mentioned that the author of Christianity Without Fairy Tales is an Episcopalian. And yet he admits, based on his understanding of some passages in Isaiah, that it predicts a paradise earth, and then mentions that Witnesses teach that. And, although, he appears to be leaning towards the Trinitarian doctrine, he seems to admit that it is not clearly stated in the NT and even says in a footnote that John 1:1 should be translated "the Word was a God." I was just mentioned him and one other author, Don Cupitt, the author of The Debate About Christ, who clearly came to the conclusion that the Witnesses are the group "which is the closest to NT Christianity", as an aside, to point out that even those who haven't become Witnesses do agree that we teach doctrines based on what the Bible says. But, again, many that have come to those same conclusions, have decided to join our Christian congregation.
JWfacts wrote " It may be difficult to come to the concept of the Trinity reading the Bible, but it is very plain that Jesus is God from the New Testament. John 20:28-29 "In answer Thomas said to him: "My Lord and my God!" For over half of its history the Watchtower taught that Jesus was a god and should be worshipped, contradicting the current teachings that you are quoting. http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/worship-jesus.php
Likewise the Bible is full of references to the resurrection being in the twinkling of an eye, and to torture, such as the account of Abraham and Lazaurus and descriptions of the lake of fire. You do not need to be a theologian to get the impression of an immortal soul, or that Abraham is in heaven.
Matthew 8:11 " But I tell YOU that many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens"
Again, as I mentioned before, the word translated worship has different shades of meaning. I quoted 1 Chron. 29:20 where the nation of Israel is said to worship Jehovah and the king. Worship can mean simply to honor one or bow down to someone in respect, as Jason Beduhn, who I mentioned earlier, states in his book. Beduhn points out in his book that the word worship did not have the same meaning as today, referring to worship only to God. Russell clearly stated by applying the term "a god" to Jesus, that he was referring to him as a mighty being, as the OT applies that word to angels and even powerful judges. And even Jesus used that word and applied to powerful judges when he quoted Ps. 82: 1-6 in John 10:31-33.
John 20:28 - many scholars say that was an exclamation said to Jesus but really directed to God. Just like some gals may say to me "Oh my God"...but they are really directing to God. The OT records visits from God's messengers or angels. Those visted by the angels sometimes said that they have seen God (compare Gen 16:7-11, 13; Judges 13:20-22). The angels were not God, but represented Jehovah God, so those who spoke to angels said they have seen God or spoken to God. That sheds light on what John 20:28 met. Clearly Jesus is not Almighty God and is not part of a Trinity. Jesus has a God, and is called the Son of God too many times in the Bible. When he was dying on the stake he cried out to his God, "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me. (Matt. 27:46, 47) Who is the God he cried out to? In Heb. 5:4-8 says that Jesus cried out the One who was able to save him...who was the greater One he cried out to that was able save him? In John 20:17 he says that he has to back to "my God and your God..." In Ephe. 1:3, 2 Cor. 1:3, Eph. 1:17, etc...all written after he was resurrected, says that the Christian congregation was to give praise and honor "to the God and Father of Jesus Christ". Who is the God and Father of Jesus Christ? Jesus mentioned in Rev. 3:12 his God several times. In John 17:3 he calls his Father, "the only true God". In 1 Cor. 8:6 it says that the "One God" is the Father, not Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The book of John clearly says in John 20:31, that we must believe that Jesus Christ is the "Son of God". The most widely quoted Bible text John 3:16, says the God sent his Son, not that God himself came down from heaven. 1 John 4:4-14 stresses that we must believe Jesus is the Son of God and that no man has ever seen God. The clear teaching of Bible is that Jesus is the Son of God. He believed in the Shema, that Jehovah our God is One Jehovah" a clearly unitarian biblical teaching. In Matt. 16:16-18 Jesus clearly said that a fundamental teaching of the Christian congregation is that Jesus is the Son of God.
Jesus’ words Abraham represents the Greater One in whom all families of the earth will be blessed, Jehovah God the Great Father. Therefore Isaac, Abraham’s only son by his wife Sarah, represents God’s only-begotten Son Jesus Christ, whom God anointed to be King of kings. The Bible clearly says that the soul dies in numerous places including Ezek. 18:4, 20; Acts 3:23; Matt. 10:28; Immortality is something that we are not. Satan the Devil was the one who said we will not die if we commits sins, but instead we will be like the gods. That what he told Eve, according to Gen. 3. If we do not really die, and always are existing in some form, are mind or being always being conscious, then we are immortal. But that is not what the Bible teaching. The twinkling of the eye is only found in book of Thess. and the contact clearly speaking of who are suddelnly awaken from death/sleep. Jesus clearly taught that the dead our asleep or unconscios (John 11:11-14) Eccle. 9:5,10 clearly says that the dead know nothing. What would be the point of the resurrection if the dead are really not dead and are living? The Bible says in John 3:16 that only those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God will live forever, and the other will perish or die. Clearly the text talking the rich and lazarus must be parables. Jesus clearly taught in John 3:13 that no man has ascended to the heavens. The Bible clearly teaches that most will be resurrected in the future and are asleep in death until awaken in the resurrection (John 5:28, 29; Acts 24:15) Not even King David is in heaven, according Matt. 11:11. Since Jesus clearly said in John 3:13, that no one has gone to heaven, then clearly, Matt. 8:11 in a spiritual sense, in view of what the aforementioned Bible texts says. Jesus’ words means the flwg. as I understand it : Abraham represents the Greater One in whom all families of the earth will be blessed, Jehovah God the Great Father. Isaac, Abraham’s only son by his wife Sarah, represents God’s only-begotten Son Jesus Christ. Since Jacob received life from Abraham through Isaac and so was Abraham’s grandson. Likewise, the Christian congregation receives life from God through Jesus Christ. “The Christ also loved the congregation and delivered up himself for it.” “The Christ also is head of the congregation, he being a savior of this body.”
JWFacts worte:The Watchtower Society has split into many groups.
Any tiny group that has left is not part of the Christian congregation Even those groups, some of which have died out or will eventually cease to exist, do not consider themselves part of the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. In addition, they leave to promote erroneous teachings that do not agree with what th eBible says. Therefore, those groups are not part of the one faith and united Christian Congregation.
JWFacts wrote: You say the changing doctrine over the resurrection is not important, yet the apostle Paul called Hymenaeus and Philetus Apostates for a misunderstanding of the Resurrection.
In their case it was not a minor misunderstanding, but some major misunderstanding. In any case, they had the apostles were living then, and they refused to listen to the correct teaching of the resurrection, and rejected the apostles' teachings. Therefore, they were apostates.
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220
2011 Watchtower publisher statistics with analysis
by jwfacts inthe 2012 yearbook has released the publisher statistics for the 2011 service year.
a scan of the report can be found at http://www.jwfacts.com/images/2011-publisher-report.pdf and i have started updating the graphs at http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php.
as expected, it is following on from similar trends to the last 15 years.
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davidl7
slimfatboy wrote:
"No response for me, although give him a break David is working hard on this thread.
But just to add that I looked up the Carolyn Wah article again to see how she cites Penton. In actual fact she does not cite any of his work at all. She simply quotes Beckford and other sociologists to the effect that the work of former JWs work is biased and unreliable. So it's a sort of reference to Penton but without even mentioning his actual work by name, which doesn't even suggest she has read Penton's work much less engaged with it.
I think it's also interesting to note the extreme lengths JW apologists will often go to avoid citing apostate literature, perhaps the best example being the almost farcical situation where Rolf Furuli wrote a two-volume work countering the arguments of Carl Olof Jonsson without explicity referring to his book The Gentile Times Reconsidered at all."
I thought Carolyn Wah stated in one of her State and Church articles, that she read James Penton book. I'll look up the article to confirm.
Actually alot of people at the WT read Carl Jonsson statements since he wrote about his viewpoint to the Society prior to leaving and prior to writing his book. I believe he was not initially expelled and the WTS may have sent him some responses, but apparently he did not agree with them.