Path:
I remember the feelings well.
Drop me a line
We'll go grab a pint or two and share stories.
Kismet
Edited by - Kismet on 8 August 2000 23:25:35
Kismet
JoinedPosts by Kismet
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19
One for the road
by Pathofthorns inso i've been trying to slowly fade away, just going to meetings on sundays, and even then its been hit and miss.
i figure the daniel book is a write off with 607 figuring prominently along with all the "fulfillments" based on it, and since i'm not going out in service, the tms/sm is a waste of time.. even sundays play out like a broken record, the wt study articles show no sign of real change, but a clinging to power and a re-defining of wt history.
the public talks are sheer fantasy.. the sad thing is, i like the people, and perhaps even the concept is attractive.
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23
Would like opinions
by Kismet inas i have posted previously i am inactive but have disappeared from the ranks quietly.
my jw family know nothing of my departure from the org except that i am not as "zealous" as i once was for the org.. here's the dilemna, my sister's mother in law (a jw) is dying of cancer.
(the docs say she could go today, this week, in two weeks..they just don't know) she is a phenomenal caring person and has always been a kind gentle soul with all she has met.
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Kismet
Hey Roaming Catlady:
Good thoughts and they echo those that I have been thinking.
Glad to see we are of the same mind...again.
How's the visit going?
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23
Would like opinions
by Kismet inas i have posted previously i am inactive but have disappeared from the ranks quietly.
my jw family know nothing of my departure from the org except that i am not as "zealous" as i once was for the org.. here's the dilemna, my sister's mother in law (a jw) is dying of cancer.
(the docs say she could go today, this week, in two weeks..they just don't know) she is a phenomenal caring person and has always been a kind gentle soul with all she has met.
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Kismet
Seven I understand completely.
I will double check the number I tried at home. Last I checked I was still awaiting authorization.
I'll try again (if that is okay of course.)
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23
Would like opinions
by Kismet inas i have posted previously i am inactive but have disappeared from the ranks quietly.
my jw family know nothing of my departure from the org except that i am not as "zealous" as i once was for the org.. here's the dilemna, my sister's mother in law (a jw) is dying of cancer.
(the docs say she could go today, this week, in two weeks..they just don't know) she is a phenomenal caring person and has always been a kind gentle soul with all she has met.
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Kismet
Thank you all for your comments.
Friend:
No-one knows about my activities or my inactivity. As far as the elders are concerned I am still a brother in good standing. And yes the rest of the family thought it was a good idea that I close the memorial service in prayer.
Seven, RHW, Simon, PathofThorns, Waiting and SS:
A sincere thank you. I gave serious thought to your comments and suggestions and have formulated a prayer that I can say and not feel like a hypocrite. I was asked to do this as a close friend not because of religious persuasion nor for current title held. I might be more apt to say no if she was asking thinking I was still an elder but she knows that I stepped aside years ago.
Hopefully I won't have to do it any time soon but am clearer as to what my response will be.
Thanks for letting me use you as a sounding board and for your support and comments.
Kismet
PS - Seven check your ICQ once in a while would ya?!?!? [8>]
Edited by - Kismet on 2 August 2000 8:50:49
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23
Would like opinions
by Kismet inas i have posted previously i am inactive but have disappeared from the ranks quietly.
my jw family know nothing of my departure from the org except that i am not as "zealous" as i once was for the org.. here's the dilemna, my sister's mother in law (a jw) is dying of cancer.
(the docs say she could go today, this week, in two weeks..they just don't know) she is a phenomenal caring person and has always been a kind gentle soul with all she has met.
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Kismet
As I have posted previously I am inactive but have disappeared from the ranks quietly. My JW family know nothing of my departure from the Org except that I am not as "zealous" as I once was for the Org.
Here's the dilemna, my sister's mother in law (a JW) is dying of cancer. (The docs say she could go today, this week, in two weeks..they just don't know) She is a phenomenal caring person and has always been a kind gentle soul with all she has met. Truly a gem. While visiting her at the hospital yesterday she mentioned that she wants me to say the prayer at her funeral.
Aside from the morbidity of speaking with someone about their own funeral I was unnerved. I am an active opposer of the religion. Now I am being asked to say a prayer in a Kingdom Hall as if I am still in good standing.
I responded that I am sure one of the elders in the Hall would be better suited than me to do this, but she insisted that I am as close as family without actually being part of it and that she has always respected me and it would make her happy to know I was going to do this.
So when she dies, do I do this. Does it make me a hypocrite if I do knowing full well that if people knew of my online activities I would not even be welcome nevermind say a prayer.
If I admit that I am no longer a JW it would crush this poor lady.
I could just say no but again would hurt her feelings. I could wait till she has died and then bow out of the duty.
Any way I am considering all options right now and would be interested in your thoughts.
Thanks
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Kismet
Kinda like the person who just bought a new computer.
Was dutifully following instructions:
Type in Your Name.
Return.
Type in company Name:
Return.S/He took it back to the store twice.
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69
True, or FAlse?
by Andyman ini am sure most of you have seen the following quote form the wbts's pr site:.
"do you shun former members?.
those who simply cease to be involved in the faith are not shunned.
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Kismet
(I apologize in advance if my format attempt fails)
Friend:
What you have represented here is that I employ the argument of irrelevant conclusion. I would very much like an example my doing so to be pointed out.
From this thread actually is case in point.
Your representation that a “Bethel Elder” had fingers waved in his face along with other overt and public displays of criticism sounds like embellishment has been introduced into a incident. If that part of the story is embellished then maybe other parts are too, like the actual reaction of those publishers.
You isolated minutia and attempted to use that to infer that the rest of the story was embellished or of little merit. However in the above referenced case it was an assumption of error on your part and not a factual error.
Might I suggest that if you want to discuss logic/arguments we start another thread so as to not side-track this one?
I leave that to you.
A la prochaine, mon ami.
Kismet
Edited by - Kismet on 24 July 2000 13:39:43
Edited by - Kismet on 24 July 2000 13:41:0
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69
True, or FAlse?
by Andyman ini am sure most of you have seen the following quote form the wbts's pr site:.
"do you shun former members?.
those who simply cease to be involved in the faith are not shunned.
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Kismet
Solid Sender:
Thank you for your welcome and for your advisory. I have been around the JW Forums for quite some time and have read Friend's literary works at several different sites.
While there are times I lean towards your sentiments, I have often found Friend to be a stickler for truth within the minutia.
Friend has readily admitted (and Friend, correct me if I am wrong- smirk) that the Society has problems. That it isn't perfect. BUt when it comes to the minutest detail he will call people to task if it isn't accurate or if in some way might distort facts.
For example, if some said that a hateful message was typed in 11 pt TimesNewRoman. Friend would likely focus on the fact that it wasn't Times New Roman it was Garamond font, therefore how much stock can be placed in the rest of your story when you can't even get that little detail right. The font type is really irrelevant but it was in fact inaccurately stated. How can you argue with that?? This is often the type of minutia that seems to concern Friend at times.
I have supported Friend's position in the past at other Forums but have also debated him. A good debate can be a valuable exercise and Friend does give one a workout. But I also realize that there are times when it is better to remain silent. Timing, and all that...
Thanks again for your comments.
Kismet
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69
True, or FAlse?
by Andyman ini am sure most of you have seen the following quote form the wbts's pr site:.
"do you shun former members?.
those who simply cease to be involved in the faith are not shunned.
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Kismet
PathofThorns:
It is possible we are close to each other but Canada is afterall the 2nd largest country in the world. So if you are in Vancouver we are a long way from each other.
I am here in the "big smoke" (Toronto)
Simon:
Depending on where your father lives, when you come over I would enjoy getting together with you, share a pint or three and compare stories.
SevenOfNine:
Thanks. For both your kind words and the subsequent smile it put on my face.
Kismet
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69
True, or FAlse?
by Andyman ini am sure most of you have seen the following quote form the wbts's pr site:.
"do you shun former members?.
those who simply cease to be involved in the faith are not shunned.
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Kismet
Seven of Nine:
I am not Df'ed however I can recount what my father has been through. He was disfellowshipped in 1976 for smoking. My folks split up shortly thereafter. Though visitation was kept up initially after he moved a distance away, myself and my siblings were told by my mother (a JW) that our contact with our father should only be for family emergencies.
After my dad was dfed and split from my mom, my sister (a very good looking slim brunette - she was hot but I'll deny ever saying that!!) was excluded from events and was told outright by some that some parents expressed concern that children of a disfellowshipped person and of divorced (GASP - remember this was the 70's and divorce just wasn't all that common yet) parents was likely bad association. One elder's son actually told her that he really liked her but he wants to marry into a stable JW family. JERK
After my mother left the Org and subsequently deserted her three teenage children (12, 15, 18) my brother and I moved in with my dad and step mother. We tried living with my sister for 2 years first..It just didn't work... go figure.
My father drove us to all the meetings. He bought suits etc as needed as I grew from 5'11" to 6' 3" in one year. He allowed my brother and I to have JW friends over to his home and he would make himself scarce so as to not make our guests uncomfortable. My brother thought about quitting the Org during a period of depression. My father worked this through with him, knwoing how much the Org meant to us at the time and really how much my brother needed the structure.
We moved again and one of the considerations my father looked at was proximity to a Kingdom hall. In this new Hall unfortunately many of the extreme attitudes were again manifest. (People picking us up for service etc, would stop on the street in front of our home and honk the horn. If brothers called and my dad picked up the phone, he had hang ups, and very curt rude attitudes given to him. ("Oh. I was calling for Kismet" appropriate snarkiness intoned) Once again my Father not only tolerated this rudeness but continued to encourage our JW activities.
Much to my father's chagrine, I moved out as soon as I graduated. I also then returned to the more extreme position of shunning my father. One phone call per year. No letters. Nothing. My brother moved out after and took up the same extreme position. My father's comment. If you need to do this in order to be happy and content in your life so be it. I don't like it, I hate it but all i want is your success and happiness.
We lessened our approach over the years that followed. He was told he was not welcome at my sister's (his only daughter) wedding, though was asked for money to help pay for it. (He drew the line there - sent a $$ gift but that was it)
While I served at Bethel he would get my step mother to call in so that the Receptionist would not feel awkward if s/he found out it was my Disfellowshipped father calling. he would get on the phone later.
While visiting the city where I was serving at Bethel, Bethel rules dictated that df'ed people are personna non grata on Bethel property. Even family members of Bethelites. So my Step mother came in to see where I lived and took pictures so my father could at least have an idea of where his son lived.
He was hospitalized in the late 80's with an aneurism (lower aorta). While at the hospital I saw two brothers (hospital visitation committee) told them my father was in Room ** and advised that though he is disfellowshipped is not not -anti-Witness and would likely appreciate a pastoral visit from them more so than a priest. Despite being there for three weeks he did not get one visit by these elders.
To my perspective it was my father's unconditional love and supprt for his children that started me questioning the whole disfellowhipping policy and the morality thereof. I spoke with the brothers responsible for writing department both at the branch and in Brooklyn regarding this issue. I spoke with Service departments and Governing Body members. ALl agreed that the approach we have taken with my father was the correct one. Shunning except in the case of emergencies. The fact that 20 years had past and it was for smoking. He had quit smoking long ago. Lives a quiet peaceful lawfully married existence. This didn't matter. He was to be shunned.
In speaking with my father now, he told me of nights where he cried himself to sleep over not having a relationship with his sons. He went into major depression over my sister's wedding fiasco. Yet he never uttered a hateful word to us about the Org or our conduct towards him. When I was appointed an elder I decided (arrogantly) to shepherd visit my own father. I asked forthright why he has never come back into the Truth. He refused to answer anything more than to say I don't want to be known as one speaking against the Organization.
I have always had a respect for my father. But since I have disregarded the whole shunning policy I have come to know the real man. He claims he missed out on part of his son's life. He did, but I think I am the one who missed out on those years with an incredible man.
I did not experience the heart wrenching pain my father did. I hope that my conduct now can in some way make up for the suffering I caused.
Tishie's support board ( http://www.support4xjws.org) contains many such stories of the needless pain caused by the shunning policy especially within families.
Hope this is of some assistance and apologize yet again for the wordiness of the post
Kismet - who hopes one day to be as good a man as his father