John_Mann

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Posts by John_Mann

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  41

  The Bizarre Free Will

  by John_Mann in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  two years before i left jw world i came to a strange conclusion about the jw cosmology and the free will doctrine.. basically i came to conclusion that satan is right about the universal sovereign issue.

  and i came with that just only using jws premises, no outside apostasy.

  i just told to my sister what she thought about it, and she said to me: dont tell anyone about this!.

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  John_Mann

  But I think a point missed is that, conceptually speaking, a perfect person can make a permanent choice.

  Exactly. If a perfect person choose the evil it's a permanent choice b/c there's no excuses (such as original sin, imperfection, satan, etc).
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  41

  The Bizarre Free Will

  by John_Mann in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  two years before i left jw world i came to a strange conclusion about the jw cosmology and the free will doctrine.. basically i came to conclusion that satan is right about the universal sovereign issue.

  and i came with that just only using jws premises, no outside apostasy.

  i just told to my sister what she thought about it, and she said to me: dont tell anyone about this!.

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  John_Mann

  Excuse me but I'm not a native english speaker (english it's my third language BTW).

  It's not some freewill.

  Even if you're limited by laws, you always have freewill to choose not accept or follow any law or limit (even natural ones, like gravity).

  But you can't escape the consequences (if you jump in an abyss you will die).
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  41

  The Bizarre Free Will

  by John_Mann in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  two years before i left jw world i came to a strange conclusion about the jw cosmology and the free will doctrine.. basically i came to conclusion that satan is right about the universal sovereign issue.

  and i came with that just only using jws premises, no outside apostasy.

  i just told to my sister what she thought about it, and she said to me: dont tell anyone about this!.

  1. 
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  3. 
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  John_Mann

  (For the record, the proper term is 'JW theology', not 'JW cosmology', since the latter refers to their beliefs on the origins of the Universe.)

  Indeed, theology is better. Thanx!

  Right off the bat, I see a problem with your use of terminology: you probably should use the word "sin" rather than "evil", sin they're not synonyms.

  I understand. I think it's better use unforgivable sin. A sin with no return. Question the Jehovah's sovereignty is an US. After all the WT itself use that dicotonomy (evil/good) when mention freewill, b/c sin kind lacks an opposite specific term.

  Also, you probably should review the difference between "Divine Will" (where violating God's will is a sin, by definition) compared to "Free Will" (noting that the philosopher's use of the term is different from the theologists' definition).

  Yeah but in JW theology it's not a clear issue.

  It's also good to review the distinction that JWs draw between "Free Will" (which applies to situations where God hasn't expressed His Divine Will) and "Freedom of Choice" (where God HAS expressed His Divine Will).

  I don't see such distinction in JWT. In JWT free will = freedom of choice. If you only have the choice between good outputs (God's expressed will) it will not be considered freewill. Field service and bible study are two "divine will" options where you can choose, both good.

  Point being, you really don't need to work that hard to get to your conclusion (I've gotta run now, so no time to explain).

  Sure, but I want to do a logical pseudo code to get a JW assimilate and agree with every step. Then the logical conclusion it's beyond obvious.
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  41

  The Bizarre Free Will

  by John_Mann in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  two years before i left jw world i came to a strange conclusion about the jw cosmology and the free will doctrine.. basically i came to conclusion that satan is right about the universal sovereign issue.

  and i came with that just only using jws premises, no outside apostasy.

  i just told to my sister what she thought about it, and she said to me: dont tell anyone about this!.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  John_Mann

  The point to consider is whether a perfect person created by God could do anything other than what is right. Far from making his creatures like robots, God granted them free will —the ability to make their own choices. Hence, a perfect , intelligent creature can choose to do good or to do evil . In reality, only deeds performed by an intelligent creature, human or spirit, endowed with free will could have real moral significance.

  • w11 9/1 pp. 4-6
  • Who Really Rules the World?
• 
  41

  The Bizarre Free Will

  by John_Mann in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  two years before i left jw world i came to a strange conclusion about the jw cosmology and the free will doctrine.. basically i came to conclusion that satan is right about the universal sovereign issue.

  and i came with that just only using jws premises, no outside apostasy.

  i just told to my sister what she thought about it, and she said to me: dont tell anyone about this!.

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  3. 
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  John_Mann

  But anybody can point out some flaw in my premises?
• 
  41

  The Bizarre Free Will

  by John_Mann in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  two years before i left jw world i came to a strange conclusion about the jw cosmology and the free will doctrine.. basically i came to conclusion that satan is right about the universal sovereign issue.

  and i came with that just only using jws premises, no outside apostasy.

  i just told to my sister what she thought about it, and she said to me: dont tell anyone about this!.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  Please I'm not talking about external doctrines.

  I'm an atheist and I'm just using a method of deconstruction with only JW elements.

  I want some objections based on JW doctrines. If a JW can accept the premises it must accept the conclusion.

  Anybody see some flaw in one of my premises (considering the JW cosmology)?
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  41

  The Bizarre Free Will

  by John_Mann in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  two years before i left jw world i came to a strange conclusion about the jw cosmology and the free will doctrine.. basically i came to conclusion that satan is right about the universal sovereign issue.

  and i came with that just only using jws premises, no outside apostasy.

  i just told to my sister what she thought about it, and she said to me: dont tell anyone about this!.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  Two years before I left JW world I came to a strange conclusion about the JW cosmology and the free will doctrine.

  Basically I came to conclusion that Satan is right about the universal sovereign issue. And I came with that just only using JW’s premises, no outside apostasy.

  I just told to my sister what she thought about it, and she said to me: “Don’t tell anyone about this!”. LOL

  Let me explain my idea:

  1- Every being must possess free will.

  2- If there is free will, there is the choice to evil.

  3- If there is choice to evil, it can happen.

  4- A perfect being can choose evil.

  5- At least in the age of universe (+-13,7 bi), one third of perfect spiritual beings chose evil (1914, Final Battle). And two out three perfect human beings chose evil (Adam, Eve and Jesus between 6000 BCE and 33 CE). The only known exact trial time of a perfect human being is 33 and half years. It’s prophesized too the choice of the majority of perfect human beings at the end of millennial (among them are millennial born ins). Maybe another group of angels will rebel in that time too.

  6- The choice of evil it’s not just a remote possibility, it really happened, happens now and will happen in the future (even in perfect worlds, spiritual and physical).

  7- The choice of evil it’s more common than the choice of good.

  8- If evil is practiced with no repentance, it must be punished with second death.

  -----------------------------

  Conclusion 1 (C1)- If free will exists evil and eternal destruction must exist too.

  And:

  1- There’s a universal sovereign issue.

  2- To every created being came to existence before and while the issue, it must take a position in that.

  3- No being can be created after the universal issue is settled.

  4- This issue never more will be raised again. Everyone who question this issue will be instantly killed forever.

  5- There is a finite number of beings who lived the settlement of universal issue.

  6- These finite number of beings will always have free will.

  7- It’s promised all pain and suffering will be deleted from our hearts. So there’s a future time when no one remember very well all the pain and suffering the humankind and angels passed through.

  8- So there will be a distant future time when all the pain will be forget and that time will be just like before the raise of sovereign issue. And we back to premise 1 of conclusion 1.

  9- C1- If free will exists evil and eternal destruction must exist too.

  ---------------------

  Conclusion 2 (C2) – If will be a finite number of beings bearers of free will, eventually everyone will choose evil and will be automatically killed forever.

  Paradox 1 : Satan was right about the universal sovereign issue.

  Paradox 2: Jehovah itself and the immortality bearers: Jesus and the 144,000.
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  56

  "How Awful This Place Can Be!" Life at Bethel by Keith Casarona

  by Dogpatch in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  remember the video of all the nice dudes who were on the governing body in the 70s?

  (here's a refresher).. well this is what their lives were really like - the same as when i was there.

  by the time it got to the end, all was left was chicken backs.

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  John_Mann

  I always thought life in Bethel could be like this:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu1iND6vtcE
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  31

  Electronic Radio Biola sold in Awake! magazine for $465 each

  by Calebs Airplane in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  well, it was actually $35 usd each, but i adjusted for today's purchasing power of us currency.

  see these interesting articles on the most bizarre medical equipment sales scam of all time.... http://www.seanet.com/~raines/biola.html.

  http://www.seanet.com/~raines/abrams.html.

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  John_Mann

  This is more funny in portuguese because biola sounds like "boiola". Boiola means faggot, WT selling faggot radios! LOL
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  22

  Personality types and religious adherence

  by EdenOne in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i was going through the personality types of the briggs-myers test (take the free test here) and noticed how some types are naturally inclined to follow rules and expect order, while others are inclined towards feelings and emotional appeals, other are naturally inclined to help out others ... what do you think?

  are there certain basic personality types that pre-dispose the individual to adhere to a certain type of religion ?.

  eden.

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  John_Mann

  Rebel8, I discovered MBTI last year through a post you mentioned your MBTI type (INTJ) in this thread:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/experiences/226778/1/a-grunts-bethel-experience

  Many thanks!