Posts by maksym

144

1st Cen. Christianity - One Organization

by StandFirm in

here is the promised debate.

the subject is whether or not god has an organization.

i'll start things simply:.

maksym

I was thinking of another hole to place the JW's in regards to what Standfirm is saying.

The Jehovah's Witnesses believe that a great apostasy overtook the church (organization) after the Apostles died off. In a nuthshell they believe that a huge span of history was left in a vacuum without this guidance of a church (organization), but that there was always "true" believers. Then the church (organization) was restored in modern times. In a simple way they believe something like this.

Let us concede to this for the moment.

If this is true then what they have done is put themselves in a big barrel with every other modern day religion. Who is to say the Jehovah's Witnesses are not all apostates and that the Mormon church, Seventh day Adventist, Church of God, or even Lutherans are correct. Who is even to say that the Jehovah's Witnesses were the actual restored church in the beginning during Bible student days but they themselves fell into apostasy. How does a member of a church such as Jehovah's Witnesses know if they are following an apostate church today or that God turned it over to another group? The questions from this are endless.

From an outsiders perspective one would need to analyze over 33 000 religions to see which one is correct. How does one then determine which church becomes that one "true church" of the first century that was aparently lost in apostasy?

Just because something makes "sense" to one person does not mean another will find it to have value and believe it to be true. Therefore as an outsider we are left with all religions and endless Biblical interpretations.

Jehovah's Witnesses may counter and say, "we are unique and not like the others". I will give them that, but uniquness does not necessarilly preclude being "right" or "in the truth", nor does there simpleton literal approach to scriptures.

Their argument reduces them to nothing!

144

1st Cen. Christianity - One Organization

by StandFirm in

here is the promised debate.

the subject is whether or not god has an organization.

i'll start things simply:.

maksym

Perhaps I can share my thoughts on this thread, as it relates to the core of my new found faith since leaving the Jehovah’s Witnesses. I am Eastern Orthodox Christian now, and I have studied the history quite extensively to do a rebuttal to the Watchtower notions of Organization as being the church structure.

Foremost, it is woefully problematic to take modern definitions from dictionaries that are used from our own vernacular of the day, to define things from the Bible that was written in Greek, and as such those words will hold different meanings. That is poor exegesis right from the start. A good example is the meaning of “greeting” in the verse that JW’s use for their disfellowshipping model. But that is another subject.

Secondly, the books of the New Testament were not canonized and recognized by the Apostolic church until close to the end of the 4th century. The Church came together through Holy Tradition. Those Traditions were handed down from the Apostles and then later to the Bishops. The Bible is even clear on this at 2 Thess 2:14. The New Testament gives us therefore a “history” of how the church functioned to some extent but that format came about before the New Testament books were identified as Holy and inspired for all. The Church actually came before the New Testament. To use the Bible as a guide in understanding the church model is like putting the cart before the horse and it will result in endless difference due to the bias of the person.

Thirdly, for the first three hundred years, up until the Edict of Milan in 313 AD, Christianity was not legal to practice. A central authority that would give instructions was not there, nor was the means to distribute and communicate things easy.

Also Jehovah’s Witnesses often like to point out that the Council at Jerusalem was like a command central that dictated what others would do. If we read the account in Acts we find the problem was in Jerusalem and not elsewhere. The nature of the Council was conciliatory and not dictatorial as the governing body operates today.

Without going into a long history lesson, I will say that historically, the Church has been conciliatory and universal in ironing out problems. The Ecumenical Councils are good examples of when problems arose they were taken care of by all the Bishops or other hierarchies.

Finally, Jehovah’s Witnesses seem to think the Church in Apostolic times was some kind of organization similar to that which operates in Brooklyn, and would have been identified as an actual “visible” organization in operation. Yet, they seem to think the Church went “invisible” and cannot be found until modern times. They claim then that there were always faithful people during this so-called “apostasy”. If we assume this premise to be true then the actual church of the apostles died out after they died.

This would mean even the New Testament books that were accepted into the Canon were determined by apostates!

It would also mean that salvation throughout all those centuries remained wholly individual and that God did not need a Church or organization to operate.

It would also mean that the Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in Matthew 16:18 in which it says that “the gates of Hades would not prevail against the Church”. This is foundational in knowing there would always be a “visible” church that would not die off into apostasy.
And it would also mean that God cared less for the vast majority of people between the beginning of the first century and the 19th century. Where would one go to gain salvation?Would they just need to believe a certain way? How would they know that they believed the correct way?

Fundamentally God would have abandoned his Church or organization.

Because the Watchtower has no history and is just a young upstart religion in modern times they place an “apostolic stamp” on themselves by saying they have restored the “true faith” because it went into apostasy. They are nothing more than what is termed a Restorationist movement mixed with a Protestant background.

The true church never died out it just gets re-invented again and again.

Peace

Maksym

11

Man's Indefinite Domain

by Maze in

the purpose is that you may walk in the way of good people and that the paths of the righteous ones you may keep.

for the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it.

as regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.

maksym

I almost forgot to say that these verses are poetry. A major blunder is read these verses in a literal sense in every way.

I hope that helps

Peace

Maksym

11

Man's Indefinite Domain

by Maze in

the purpose is that you may walk in the way of good people and that the paths of the righteous ones you may keep.

for the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it.

as regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.

maksym

I think it is important to understand that when cherry picking scriptures for getting the proper exegesis of them you must place them within the context of when they were written.

In dealing with the scriptures above. You should ask;

What audience were these scriptures written to at the time they were written. Also a good rule of thumb is to use 20/20 vision or, read 20 verses before and after the verse to gain better contextual meaning.

And also you should realise what genre the book is in to better understand the way it presents itself. These are basic exegetical strategies to help understand the scriptures.

Also If you can't figure it out, a good way see others views is to get a Bible with a Commentary at the bottom of the pages. Use a Bible from several different backgrounds that allows conservative and broad appeals to other theologions both present and past.

And of course this would not be complete without prayer and asking God to supply you with Holy Spirit in your understanding. Be humble and keep an open mind are also good.

Those are just some tips I learned and has helped me out tremendously.

Lastly uniqueness is a danger sign. I looked those passages up in my Bible and there is no deep underlying all encompassing future fulfillment to those verses. Contextually they were written to the nation of Israel during troubled times where they struggled both spiritually and were persecuted by enemies near them. Those words were written as encouragement to stay close to the Lord and there land would not be taken away.

Finally "Earth" and "Land" have different meanings so you may want to get a Hebrew word study and reference Bible to compare what certain uses of them were and how they are translated.

In short those verses are not in any way linked to a paradise kingdom government.

23

Why a publishing company and not a news channel

by maksym in

jw
friends

it is interesting to say that the means of communication of god [jehovah ]happens to be varied throughout the ages.

in apostolic times god had eyewitness to proclaim the message.

these faithful men furthered the message by spreading the message by word of mouth coupled with oral tradition.

maksym

okay, enough ranting.

23

Why a publishing company and not a news channel

by maksym in

jw
friends

it is interesting to say that the means of communication of god [jehovah ]happens to be varied throughout the ages.

in apostolic times god had eyewitness to proclaim the message.

these faithful men furthered the message by spreading the message by word of mouth coupled with oral tradition.

maksym

The other question would be if God is capable of communicationg with everyone, why would He use an impersonal object like a publishing company instead of just communicating with each person individually. I mean seriously I can talk to people, why can't God to each person, who is all powerful. Does He need a publishing company to do his work for Him? That is rediculous.

23

Why a publishing company and not a news channel

by maksym in

jw
friends

it is interesting to say that the means of communication of god [jehovah ]happens to be varied throughout the ages.

in apostolic times god had eyewitness to proclaim the message.

these faithful men furthered the message by spreading the message by word of mouth coupled with oral tradition.

maksym

It is interesting to say that the means of communication of God [jehovah ]happens to be varied throughout the ages. In Apostolic times God had eyewitness to proclaim the message. These faithful men furthered the message by spreading the message by word of mouth coupled with oral tradition. Moving forward to more modern times God decided to choose a publishing company in a young country like the United States to be the home of end time light that would help the faithful ones?

I find it hard to believe that God uses man made printing presses and this type of communication to further His interest.

If we analyze the concept, and concede to the JW point of view, God decides to make a few men his spokespersons. They in turn supposedly write articles that give print for them for the entire world.

Only does the printing press, a man-made object or invention preclude this scenario. Why? Why did God choose the United States? Both suggestions are preposterous. But why printing and not a radio program or a television station, or an internet channel.

Personally I believe that IF the Jw’s did NOT have any literature, the religion would crumble.

Can anyone refute this? I mean if all JW’s went to the KH and did not have any printed material they would be doomed.

They believe in printed page. They worship print from a publishing company. If they don’t worship it they surely are guilty of idolatry.

What do you say? Why not something else like a newspaper or something. There is so much more to getting a message out than just printing magazines and books.

Thanks

13

What is the soul?

by losthobbit in

having been religious i often searched for evidence agreeing with my point of view.

i have since left my religion, because of the vast amount of evidence against it, but there are still two concepts that boggle my mind: the beginning of time, and the soul.. my understanding of what the soul is, is not a ghost that floats around, scaring people at night.

it is you, the thing that makes you alive, that allows you to experience pain and happiness, and differentiates you from a robot.. perhaps you're believe that pain and happiness are merely electrical signals travelling around in your brain, which i think is partly correct, but i will share some examples as to why i think it isn't that simple.. i don't think of humans as being their bodies.

maksym

The soul and the body are two distinct entities residing together in a harmonious relationship. The Bible talks about the body and the soul in various passages. Mankind was created to be in the image and likeness of God. In such we have a physical component that is created and a spiritual component fused together, for the sake of argument, to become a unique creation.

We, mankind, are above the creation of angels. We are the height of creation.

Why is it that the Theotokos is regarded above the Cherubim and the Seraphim? She ascended into the heights of illumination, beyond the highest of angels.

We are like the angels and are like the earth and creation. The soul of mankind is a component of such, not separate, and not immortal, but part of God’s creation.

When we die the soul is preserved for the Kingdom of God and enters into a new creation for glorification for all eternity.

st Maksym

Do you understand this?

96

One thing the WT got right was the Trinity being false.

by miseryloveselders in

jw
friends

i swear only a fool would believe in such a ludicrous doctrine that all three are one.

ridiculous..

maksym

The Wathtower Bible and Tract Society has absulutely nothing right. They are wrong on Biblical doctrine nearly 100 percent.Complete and utter darkness. They are the most far removed from true Christianitity. It's no wonder that people leaving have a hard time adjusting. The light is too bright. They become blinded because they've been in a dark room too long. Their pride or anger take over.

Let's be real. These guys started this religion only about 130 years ago. It's literally stupid to believe them. It's like talking to a baby about the Bible.

Lord have mercy

Maksym

87

Is everyone on here disassociated??

by happi2b in

jw
friends

so i don't understand it seems to me from the posts that i have read just about everyone is disassociated.. just wondering if that's true or if i am not the only one on here still within the organization..

maksym

There is no such thing as disfellowshipped, dissasociated, apostate, inactive, weak, irregular, or otherwise. In general these "labels" are construed to be categories to place people in by an "organisation" under its unique guidelines. All this is an illusion of an intimate socialogical reality imposed upon you, only as long as you BELIEVE IT.

I am an ex Watchtower Bible and Tract Corporation member, nothing more nothing less. I was a jehovah's witness in relgious title (capitalision omitted purposely). Now I am......fill in the blank.

I am not disfellowshipped

I am not disassociated.

I am not an apostate.

I am not inactive.

I have a new identity. The old is forever destroyed. I carry with me no theologies, dogma, doctrine, precedures, ideologies, sociological, or political concerns with my former group affiliation.

Peace

Maksym