What is the soul?

by losthobbit 13 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • losthobbit
    losthobbit

    Having been religious I often searched for evidence agreeing with my point of view. I have since left my religion, because of the vast amount of evidence against it, but there are still two concepts that boggle my mind: The beginning of time, and the soul.

    My understanding of what the soul is, is not a ghost that floats around, scaring people at night. It is you, the thing that makes you alive, that allows you to experience pain and happiness, and differentiates you from a robot.

    Perhaps you're believe that pain and happiness are merely electrical signals travelling around in your brain, which I think is partly correct, but I will share some examples as to why I think it isn't that simple.

    I don't think of humans as being their bodies. I think of us as being our souls, using our bodies and brains to understand and interact with the world.

    Example 1 - An empty universe

    If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound? Imagine a universe without people or animals. Nothing that happens within the universe would matter at all. All the billions of stars and planets would serve absolutely no purpose. Nothing matters until a single soul exists, having the ability to experience pain and happiness, and a body to receive information about its surroundings.

    Example 2 - A robot

    Imagine a scientist creates a robot. He uses a variable, called happiness, which can have a value from zero to a hundred, in order to simulate happiness. This robot acts and looks exactly like a human. If you roll it down a cliff, sensors will case the happiness variable to reduce its value, and cause the robot to emit pain noises. Anyone watching this will feel sorry for the robot, because they don't know that it doesn't have a consciousness, it doesn't have a soul, and cannot really experience pain. Only the scientist will not feel sorry for it.

    Example 3.1 - Evil's clone

    Imagine someone who doesn't love. The only person they care about is themself. This person is pure evil. He likes to kill people, but he loves himself, and hates experiencing any kind of pain.

    He is going to be frozen, and an exact clone is going to be made of him: every single atom is going to be the same.

    Before the procedure, he is asked, "When you wake up, we're going to beat one of the two of you. Does it matter which one we beat?"

    His answer is obviously that he would prefer the clone to be beaten, and not the original. As far as the science I am aware of is concerned, it shouldn't matter, because both humans are exactly the same. It does, however, make sense if you say that his soul exists in the original body, and is not made up of atoms.

    Example 3.2 - Evil's future

    Imagine a slightly different scenario: Mr Evil, above, is asked whether he would prefer to be beaten tomorrow, or thirty years in the future (and somehow they guarantee he will still be alive then). I think most people would say that it doesn't matter to Mr Evil, because the tomorrow Mr Evil, and thirty years from now Mr Evil will still be the same person. But, will he? Most of the atoms in our bodies are replaced within our lifetime. Google "what percentage of atoms are replaced in our bodies"... you will see sites saying 98% of your body is replaced every year!

    In fact, how do we even know, that when we wake up tomorrow, we still have the same body that we had yesterday? If we have a new body, we will have a new brain, and new memories, so we probably wouldn't know.

    Example 3.3 - Evil's 50 / 50

    Mr Evil is told before he is cloned that they're going to do an additional operation while he is frozen:

    They're going to swap half of the atoms in the original body with half of the atoms in the clone.

    "Which one can we beat, Mr Evil?"

    Any idea what his answer would be, and why?

    Example 3.4 - Evil's replacement

    Same as 3.3, but all the atoms are replaced, one by one, until eventually the clone is the original, and the original is the clone.

    "Which one can we beat, Mr Evil?"

    Any idea what his answer would be, and why?

    Someone said something that bugged me. They said that they were worried that if we create artificial intelligence, and it comes out slightly stupid, we wouldn't be able to switch it off, for ethical reasons. Hopefully no-one here thinks that, because AI will not have a consciousness, and it won't have a soul.

    There are also people who believe that if you were able to upload your thoughts into an artificially intelligent computer, you could come alive again... I strongly disagree with that.

    There was also a movie, about a magician, who made a clone of himself, and drowned his original body in secret in order to give the illusion that he was transporting himself. This is a bit like how a Star Trek transporter could work: make a copy, and delete the original. The magician was worried, because he never knew whether he would be remain the original, or become the clone.

    I think it's quite obvious that he remained the original, which he drowned. My understanding, is that it's because the original body is connected to his soul.

    I'm really keen to hear if anyone has any insight into this.

    Does what I've written make sense?

    Do you have an explanation as to what the soul is?

    Do you think animals have souls?

    Do plants have souls?

    Are souls made of atoms?

  • ProdigalSon
    ProdigalSon

    I think you're on the right track, losthobbit... I don't know about the "atoms" though.... that would be on this lower plane of existence, but soul is something ethereal.....

    I studied Buddhism, Kabbalah, Theosophy, channeling, and quite a few other philosophies, and they all agree that soul is CONSCIOUSNESS... which is a real energy present in everything. Even rocks have consciousness ("...the stones would cry out....").... but there is a higher consciousness, the "God-Spark", present in most humans.... when I say "most", that's because some are spiritless.

    Since I'm having trouble with IE 9, I can't post links.... so if this sounds plausible to you, try googling "soul is consciousness" and also "Spiritless Humans"..... there is an awesome article on montalk.net

  • J. Hofer
    J. Hofer

    why wouldn't a robot "feel" pain? pain is just some information sent to the main processing unit. it just comes down to programming it. we are all biochemical robots really.

    but when i get you right you say the soul is conciousness. don't really know what conciousness is and if there's a way to copy or distribute it. it's one of those "secrets" we still have to explore, i guess.

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    Anyone ever read C.S. Lewis' "Out of the Silent Planet?"

  • losthobbit
    losthobbit

    J. Hofer, if pain is simply a message, why is it unethical to inflict pain on someone?

  • losthobbit
    losthobbit

    Thanks ProdigalSon... I'll take a look at that site.

    MadSweeney... nope, never read it... why do you ask?

  • J. Hofer
    J. Hofer

    it's not generally unethical to inflict pain on someone. think dentist, s&m, accupuncture etc.

    yes, it is simply a message from nerve to brain. the brain will interpret the message, order some hormons to do their job or sometimes even shut down for a while.

  • NomadSoul
    NomadSoul

    Example #1: As I see it now, the universe and all the trillion of stars and planets seem to not serve a purpose. The universe is indifferent to what we do. We are the one's that are trying to apply a purpose to all things. For thousands of years man believed that we were the center of the universe. Now we know we're not even in the center of our solar system and our galaxy! We want to feel special so we decided to create a concept called the soul or the spirit. As we learn more about our brains and how it functions we might once and for all answer this question.

    Example #2: Are you referring to a robot that just acts human? Or a robot that is constructed exactly like we are with an artificial brain that functions EXACTLY like ours? Would that make a difference in your statement?

    Example #3.1: What do you think the clone is going to say if you ask him the same question?

    Alright, we know that our cells replace other cells all the time. That means that even our brain transfers information to other new cells. So let's say in the future they can make a replica of the brain, all it's functions, everything. They can theorically transfer all that information to this brain. All your thoughts, ideas, and memories will still function. You would also have feelings since the artificial brain would also have the same capabilities.

    I don't know if you get what I'm saying, but that's my short take on it.

  • designs
    designs

    Ask Sam & Dave

  • clarity
    clarity

    Isn't this the problem the watchtower has with it's teaching about the soul. We are a soul. Don't have a soul. Soul dies .... everything is dead. Nothing of you at all has even a spark of thought or life. Totally dead.

    When they speak of god resurrecting this dead thing back into being you .... it would not be a resurrection. It would be a recreation. It may look like you. But would not be you. Sort of like a Clone.

    The new body walking around in the 'paradise' wouldn't be you. Your thoughts perished when you died!

    This is a whole new concept for me, so I'm still toying with it.

    clarity

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