Posts by maksym

96

One thing the WT got right was the Trinity being false.

by miseryloveselders in

jw
friends

i swear only a fool would believe in such a ludicrous doctrine that all three are one.

ridiculous..

maksym

I personally believe that the second most dangerous doctrine of the jehovah's witnesses is the unitarian doctrine of God. The first most dangerous teaching is annihilation upon death.

The problem of not entirely understanding or even attempting to develop faith in the Trinity is that YOU GOT NO WHERE ELSE TO GO!

Nearly 99,9 percent of all Christians believe in this doctrine. Only the fringe crazy cult groups see it differently. You leave them and you are subject to becoming atheist or agnostic because your worldview has just been flipped upside down. Its a radical mind numbing departure from all of your thinking and dogma.

Anyone which is still a theist, and does not believe in the Trinity is STILL A JEHOVAHS WITNESS!

The society takes minds and hearts captive not bodies! Why do you think they made it this way? When you leave the programmed you so you would not have anywhere else to go.

Go find a church in your local area that believes the same. Good luck with that.

Maksym

2

Message for maksym

by factfinder in

jw
friends

hi maksym!

i have tried tried three times to send you a pm and i keep getting an error message.

i'll try again tomorrow!

maksym

Hey factfinder,

I hope you got my message. Sometimes I get error messages and can't open up my mail either. It's been a quirky system for me. I'm not sure what is happening but after several attempts it works.

Your last message just had the title but no words in the message. Not sure about that.

If you didn't get my last message or can't read it then let me know. I'll send another out. You can always use my regular email too. I don't have a problem with that.

Best wishes

Maksym

108

The secret of how Christianity spread across the world

by Terry in

what i am going to say may sound nasty and mean-spirited.

i assure you it is not intended in that tone.. men are power seekers and control freaks.

without using women as drones to do the grunt work of religion.

maksym

Early Christianity largely spread because of the viral nature of political expediency among pagan leaders, rulers and kings whose mothers, daughters and wives had accepted the Christian Faith. The wife has the ear. The wife has the influence. The wife has the emotional persuasion. Moral suasion, you might call it. And certainly the long-term influence over children as I mentioned above.

Women in the Roman empire were ready and willing to embrace the peaceful aspects of christianity after centuries of seeing their sons grow up and die in silly wars. Christinaity was "turn the other cheek." Christianity was pro-family. Christianity was anti-politics.

Slowly but inexorably it was women who made Christianity a powerful and mighty influence.

Men retained the power as long as they possibly could by creating marginal status for their christian wives and daughters, but, today we see that women have finally broken through the "glass ceiling" of prejudice and Pauline prohibitions.

Is this just your opinion? Can you quote sources? This sounds just like another emotional diatribe from an ex cult member. I am a student of historical Christianity. You are completey off-base. Biased in my opinion in every respect.

If you want to have any weight in that statement quote your sources otherwise it is just words.

30

POLL/SURVEY- Why Did You Leave The Organization of JW's?

by PublishingCult in

why did you leave the organization of jehovah's witnesses, and/or why are you contemplating leaving the organization of jehovah's witnesses?.

i've tried to boil it down to the most likely answers based on all the reasons i have heard over the years from xjw's.

a. because the watchtower bible & tract society does not have the truth.. b. because i had a personality conflict with other members of the organization.. c. because i discovered that the wtbts was not being honest or forthcoming about its history.. d. because serving jehovah was too difficult and i just wanted to be worldly and do wicked things.. e. because the governing body of jehovah's witnesses have proved to be false prophets.. f. because i found just cause to disagree with erroneous jw teachings.. g. because the governing body and/or elders were hypocritical.

maksym

The main reason I left was because I found out that the WTB&TS is controlled by Satan. I want to serve God the allmighty not a false god like Satan.

43

Have you ever felt an earthquake?

by Iamallcool in

jw
friends

personally, i have never felt an earthquake in my life.

.

maksym

I was in several in the southern California area. The minor ones just feel like putting a quarter in a cheap motel bed then letting it rock!

27

Anyone With Major Judicial/Service Department Experience?

by A question in

jw
friends

is there anyone on the board with a large amount of experience with judicial matters or (preferably) with the service department of the society or perhaps even worked on the service department?

if so, i would appreciate the answers to at least some of the following questions:.

does the society ever take the initiative to remove elders, and if so, how do they do it?

maksym

I do not have judicial experience however,

In the Northern Idaho area the local body of elders were removed minus one. I have direct second hand account of this information and know that it occurred. In this particular case the "society" used a mole to see if the local elder body was "sound". The "mole" of which I know personally gave information to the society based on conversations he held with other elders on the telephone. The whole experience got out of hand and the "mole" was categorised like the others. Only after special pleading was the mole allowed to stay but he cried like a baby and said he was "sorry".

The mole had suffered badly from this and today is still an elder but has emotional problems. The men he turned in were older and more experienced than him. Those men he turned in were like family to him. He turned his back on them. To this day he suffers.

The way it was handled was very mischievious. He would call the other elders on the phone and get them to agree to something that was wrong and he reported it to the branch. It almost backfired on him.

The society removed the entire body except the mole. None were disfellowshipped but were removed. The whole thing was labeled as apostasy on the elder body and they needed to be cleaned out.

I personally think the mole was in need of something. He sought advancement or something but no one will never know.

True story and a part of the history of the northern Idaho area.

39

The Soul

by free2beme in

jw
friends

so we were all taught basically this thought.

the soul is our life, not seperate and not something that moves on when we die, right?

yet, for those who die and get ressurected, jehovah remembers them and makes them come to life with their memories, personalities, appearance and so on, right?

maksym

@ Interested one,

A clone is defined as an exact representation or copy of the original object.

In biology a clone is the exact genetic representation of the mother organism.

In dealing with JW theology the mother organism is the "you" or the "original" creation (birth) of you. The clone therefore would be anything "created" or "re-created" after the orginal you.

JW's believe God will clone them in the new system and that it will actually be "them". Yet the "them", or mother (original) organism(s), will cease to exist long ago.

Very sad. It is the main reason I got out. I don't believe this. What a cruel god in this theology.

Peace

Maksym

-

39

The Soul

by free2beme in

jw
friends

so we were all taught basically this thought.

the soul is our life, not seperate and not something that moves on when we die, right?

yet, for those who die and get ressurected, jehovah remembers them and makes them come to life with their memories, personalities, appearance and so on, right?

maksym

@factfinder

Thank you for responding and also thank you for not reverting to ad hominem attacks. I am a Christian now but was once a Jehovah's Witness. I find the doctrine of annihilation very disturbing. Currently I am working on a psychology degree and have studied religious philosophy a few times. You seem like a nice person, however without offense, I think you have not studied the Bible and other sources to understand just how different the Jehovah's witnesses are and how Pagan they are. It was a surprise to me and probably might be to you if you looked into ancient first century Christianity to see the differences.

To respond;

I think it is ironic that you feel the idea of our going out of existence at death is a PAGAN concept! I was taught the idea of an immortal soul was a pagan concept!- quote from factfinder
Anything of origin that is not "truth" to a JW is considered pagan. In Christianity pagan just means something that is not truth the origin is irrelevant. A good example is that the Egyptians had an ark similar to the Hebrews. The Hebrews changed the meaning but used the concept. The ark of the covenant is an example of something made Holy from a pagan concept. But I must digress because this is a different topic. The idea of an immortal soul IS a pagan concept. You are correct. Mankind does not have an immortal soul. However, God by His grace preserves our soul so that we may enter into his kingdom. It is by His grace that the soul remains. It is not by its NATURE alone. I agree the immortal soul is a pagan idea and is false. It is to say that the fleshly body dies but can be preserved a while longer by the advances of modern medicine. God preserves the soul the same way.

It is not a pleasant thought to realise we no longer exist when we die. It is natural and understandable to feel there must be a part of us that continues on. If this was so, however, it would make the resurrection meaningless. And the Bible definitely teaches there WILL be a resurrection. Acts 24:15; Isa.26:19(-my favorite scripture since my beloved Mom died.)
I am sorry to hear about your mom. May God grant her mercy and may she rest in peace. I will pray for her; another topic. You are correct the Bible does teach there will be a resurrection. I believe this too. In fact my church teaches there will be a bodily resurrection. When we die we do not just go to some ethereal state in the heavens to become like angels until a future time. This is not the teaching of the Bible either. We are bodily and physically resurrected but we must have a piece of ourselves to carry with us into that. That is the you and is your soul.

When my brother and I began to study with jws we both believed we go to heaven when we die. For me what the jws taught was a major disappointment. But we were encouraged to see what every reference to the "soul" said in the Bible. I used a concordance and looked all of them up. It fit what jws teach about the soul. The soul is YOU. It eats, it sleeps, it dies, etc. Animals are souls too.
The Biblical teaching is that we enter into the state of the kingdom when we die. What the JW's taught to me was a disappointment as well. Their appeal is to a fleshly physical universe. People can relate to that and it can be illustrated in magazines very easily. Jesus said my kingdom is no part of the world and there are scriptures saying that no eye nor hear has seen or heard nor the thoughts of man conceived what the kingdom entails. I'm not saying that the kingdom is physical it actually is but not like the JW's teach. True ancient Christianity traditionally taught of a bodily resurrection. I believe I will have a new body the moment I die. My soul will be carried into it and preserved by God. My body here on earth will decay. Animals are souls too but only humans are created in the image and likeness of God. God preserves by His grace the human soul whilst the animal soul perishes. The animal part is debatable however as to what God does with it.

Therefore, the question is, what makes us who we are? Our personality, thoughts, opinions, likes/dislikes, memories, experiences,etc. Where do these come from? Our mind. They are created by our brain. Our entire being therefore is what our brain creates. This is US!
You are correct to entertain this question and I can’t explain everything here. But needless to say what JW’s teach is a philosophical position of naturalism. This is an invention of man. It simply means “us” or “you” are a collection of the biological processes that occur on an everyday basis. The memories in this system and your thoughts then are generated by your physical counterpart. That is naturalism in a nutshell. The “you” are an extension of this biological process.
However Christianity teaches, and has always taught that we are both a spiritual being and a physical being fused together into one being. They act upon each other and cannot be separated. It is our very nature. We are spiritual and undefined by science yet remain definable in a physical sense by empirical evidence. We are a two-fold creation. We are angelic and we are physical at the same moment.

But we are the sum of our thoughts and personality as I mentioned above.
Yes we are. But we are more than just “thoughts” and “memories”. As other posters have written. We could just as well be a recording. When we die the recording stops and we get placed into a memory bank to be uploaded again into another shell (a duplicate body). We are much more than this and God loves us too much to treat us this way. He cares that we are preserved at death.
I do not have my ORIGINAL body. My cells died and replaced themselves many, many times in my life thus far, and will continue to do so until I die. If our cells did not at some point stop duplicating and replacing themselves, we would not die!
Correct! and neither do I. This shows that the “you” or the essence of you still remain. What is that essence? It is your soul. Your argument above actually supports that we have a soul that is not entirely dependent on the physical body and can survive multiple regenerations. To refute your argument I could easily say that you died already many times but I’m sure you realise this is not true. The ORIGINAL you is still there. It is your spiritual soul.

But my point is- I am me. The same PERSON I always was. My body has changed many times in my life. The original I was born with is long gone. But my personality, my mind, thoughts, memories etc keep being recreated by my brain. It is programmed into my dna to be who I am. That is true of each of us.

You are correct again. You are the same PERSON as always. The fact that your body changed does not mean your soul was affected. Your mind, personality, thoughts, memories and its integration into your pattern of thinking IS your soul or what modern science would refer to as “the mind”. Your DNA has changed many times. To concede to your position would be to say you have died every time your body regenerated. Are you willing to say you have died already because your body regenerated every cell? Have you died already? Hmmm.

So I am not the 'Original" in that sense anyway! But, I am still ME!
You are the original most certainly! You do not have your original body. Your essence or your soul or spiritual state is still intact and it is THE original “you”. Your soul is “you”, not your body.

Those who do not accept the Bible teaching of what a "soul" (Nephesh/Psyke) is will not feel satisfied with my explanation- but it IS what the Bible says a SOUL is! Thus, it is merciful of God to remember us (very easy for him to do) and bring us back to life again via the resurrection! If we were not dead he could not resurrect us. The word rendered resurrection in the Bible means to stand up to life again.
Putting exegesis aside for the moment I must say that it is a merciful and loving God that allows sinful humans to be preserved unto a resurrection and not unto a re-creation. Yes, we stand up again in flesh but that holds with it that we are preserved until that time. What a loving God we have to be able to by the grace of His love cherish our soul until that time when we can stand up again in bodily form, with a new and glorified body just like Jesus had when he was resurrected. Glory be to Him.

Thus, if we accept what the Bible really teaches regarding what the soul is and that it dies we would have great appreciation for the resurrection! If a part of us consciously survived death the resurection would be meaningless and unnessary.
Again a common misconception of the witnesses is that if we survive death in “some” mystical way then we cannot appreciate the resurrection. Don’t get me wrong death is sorrowful and it is not the nature or path of mankind. It tears at us and rents us asunder. But through Christ we have ETERNAL life and can live again in the kingdom. I truly appreciate the resurrection even though I will die someday. Death is necessary for our sins and we pay the price for them by death. All men die but through Christ we have victory over death because He resurrects us in glory. The resurrection is necessary because without it we would be in the “pit” or Sheol. The kingdom has come. It is now!

I don't know if I am addressing your idea satisfactorily enough to help you see that the original "you" will still be there when God resurrects you. We are made of the elements of the ground. We eat foods like cereal that contain various metals and elements from the ground to give our cells the building blocks they need to repair and reproduce/replace themselves. Our bodies are not the "ORIGINALS". But our mind is- our personality, traits etc are! That is what makes us US! That is what the SOUL is as described by the Bible and the original Hebrew and Greek words. When God resurrects us- what made us who we are will be the same.
You said it yourself that our minds are the originals and our personality, traits, etc., And you said that that is what makes us “us”. Well, you are correct but if you are annihilated then that is no longer the original. Currently your “mind, personality, traits, etc.,” are all part of your soul. Yes, it is original but your body is not. If your mind dies then you are extinguished and cannot be the original,l however your “soul” is preserved. Good proof of this is how you brought out that your body is not the original but your “mind, etc.,” is. Factfinder still has an original soul but not an original body. True.

Factfinder you seem like a nice and intelligent person but I don’t think I will convince you that ontologically it is impossible the position that you hold. You also mentioned that you studied with the JW’s. How much time was that involved? I would encourage you to go seek out all sources at your local library on philosophy of religion and ancient Christianity to crosscheck the data. Count how many hours are involved in your “indoctrination” into the witnesses and then counter that with your own studies.

As mentioned before I am a student of philosophy and psychology and can tell very quickly that most JW’s are under coercive persuasion techniques. Please PM me if you need any help. I’ll leave this thread alone for now. I will give you my phone number if need be.

May the Lord (jehovah) bless you in your journey,

Maksym

39

The Soul

by free2beme in

jw
friends

so we were all taught basically this thought.

the soul is our life, not seperate and not something that moves on when we die, right?

yet, for those who die and get ressurected, jehovah remembers them and makes them come to life with their memories, personalities, appearance and so on, right?

maksym

@factfinder,

Okay I'll fudge a little and make another post. I couldn't resist.

Scenario based upon Jw doctrine of annihilation.

Suppose John is 25 years old today. Unfortunately he gets into a terrible accident and is sent into the hospital. He is lying on in his bed and gets a message from God.

God says, "John, you've been a great servant but unfortunately you are going to die. However I have good news. I am going resurrect (re-create) you temporarily so that you may live again another 50 years. You only have 5 minutes left of this life, but to assure you that you will be safe I will show you how I will keep my promise."

God then pulls the curtain back separating the two beds to reveal another John in exact detail lying in the bed next to the one He just spoke to.

"This is YOU.", God says to the first John and adds, "I wanted to show you before you die that you are living again and will go on to live."

Okay the original John now has about 2 minutes left to live. To say that when the first John dies he lives as himself as the second John is utter nonsense. This is the wacky theology of Watchtower world.

Okay factfinder put yourself in the first John shoes. Your lying in bed and you got about two minutes left. Look over to your side. That guy over there is you in every minute detail. But you got just a few minutes of breath left. Does this theology really comfort you? What would be going through your mind if you were lying there. The YOU, the ORIGINAL is going to pass away forever for all eternity.

It doesn't matter if God starts the process 5 minutes early in this situation or 1 million years later. When the original "you" is gone it cannot be brought back. Period.

Peace

Maksym

39

The Soul

by free2beme in

jw
friends

so we were all taught basically this thought.

the soul is our life, not seperate and not something that moves on when we die, right?

yet, for those who die and get ressurected, jehovah remembers them and makes them come to life with their memories, personalities, appearance and so on, right?

maksym

@factfinder,

I'm only going to try and make one post at this because I don't think it will do much good to change your mind, and this also this deals with religous philosophy and can get muddy and technical very easily. Please re-read what poster Leolaia said in her post about there being no continuity of existence. That is the key. She made a great post.

No where in the Bible do we find the concept, in which JW's teach, that annihilation happens upon death. This is a pagan Buddist concept. It means we vanish out of existence when we die. We enter into a state of non-being just like we were before we were born. What JW's believe in is a re-creation not a resurrection. Allow me to explain the difference.

In order for a resurrection to happen a part of the original must have continuity within the future restoration. Once the original is lost it cannot ontologically be made to be the original again, it is therefore an exact duplicate. THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE ORIGINAL.

1. Before anyone was born they were in a state of non-existence.

2. Assuming the Christian worldview, God then out of nothing, ex nihilo, creates you THE ORIGINAL and first of its kind.

3. If you die; and let us concede to the JW view of death, you then enter into a state of non-existence, just like in step one. THE ORIGINAL IS LOST FOREVER.

The "you" is the ORIGINAL, at present and now person, with its collection of parts and life experiences.

The "you" is not just a collection of all of its parts and life experiences.

I say this is because THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE ORIGINAL, after that it is just clones and copies like Leolaia posted and which gave an example.

Because we have cells that constantly change shows that I am not bound by my body alone and that I have been made up of more than this. This is a great testament that we have a soul, meaning a spiritual soul that is uniquely integrated into my earthly body. My mind has no connection at all with my body yet it still matures and can control my body or my body can control my mind. Give glory to Jesus for making us this way. We are created in the image and likeness of Him.

Here is an example to illustrate:

1. Take a small piece of paper and write your name on it. This paper will represent "you" from original birth and will be exactly as you are sitting there today in every detail.

2. Now take that piece of paper and crunch it up and put it in your left hand and hold it there. This will be you when you die and are supposedly annihilatied (JW doctrine)

3. Now take another piece of paper and write your name in it. This will be the "person" that "represents" you sitting there right now in every detail at a re-creation. (JW dogma). Is this paper with your name on it you ? What's in your left hand? What does that represent in your left hand?

The answer is the paper in your left hand represents the original that was lost and the new paper is a duplicate.

Another illustration.

Suppose a house burns down to the ground and all that is left is the foundation, chimney and some of the plumbing. Ninety-percent is gone. Now suppose contracters came and rebuilt the house to the same code and specs as before. I think it would be fair to say that the house was restored or rebuilt.

Suppose the same house burns down and it gets leveled and every piece of it gets removed even the foundation along with all traces of it. The lot stays empty and weeds and trees grow up. Now after time a contracter comes in and builds a house again but he uses the same exact detail as the one that burnt down. I think it would be prudent to say that there is a new house there. The original was lost completely. This is a replicate or re-creation of the original.

The important thing to remember is God cannot make two originals. It is an ontological imposibility. To illustrate God cannot make a circle a square at the same time. He cannot make a rock so big he cannot lift it. These are paradoxis and meaningless.

YOU are the ORIGINAL and live at this moment. When you die your spirit is preserved by the hand of God and you are conscience of who you are.

One of the most dangerous teachings of the Watchtower is that our soul dies when our body dies or that our body is our soul. Please do more research into this especially Christian teathings. Stay away from the cults. Study the Bible without the WT literature.

Peace to you

Maxym