Posts by Quendi

176

JW refuses to provide wedding stationery to Gay couple

by KateWild in

i was outraged at this and had to post it.. http://jehovahswitnessreport.com/blog/jw-refuses-to-provide-wedding-stationery-to-gay-couple.

i think she is a hypocrite and i bet she sells her invites to fornicators, or does she ask them if they are having sex before marrige, before she takes their money?.

i was never like this when i was a jw, it's even more disturbing that she is going to ask her elders what to do.

Quendi

Addressing MrBluesBrother's point about same-sex marriage and Jehovah's Witnesses, no self-respecting same-sex couple would even remotely consider studying with, let alone joining Jehovah's Witnesses. I have a partner who has gently but firmly told me that he does not want to see me have anything to do with Witnesses again. He has not had to repeat this as I am of the same mind. I know other gay ex-JWs who have adamantly adopted the same position. We were considered subhuman when we were in the organization. There is no way we will ever submit ourselves to that kind of abuse again, and we have spread the word in our respective gay communities to do the same.

I have a friend who is still "inside" and lives in California. When same-sex marriage became legal for the first time there, I asked him what would be the response of a door-knocker to the presence of a same-sex couple in the home. After all, in the eyes of "Caesar", this couple was legally married. He said that the question had never come up in any Service Meeting part that dealt with suggested presentations. When Proposition 8 banned such marriages in the state, Witnesses had a reprieve of sorts; but now that the ban has been voided by SCOTUS, the issue is a present concern as it is in eighteen other states and the District of Columbia. It won't be long before Witnesses engaged in their canvassing work will have to face this question in every state in the Union because I'm convinced that even the conservative majority now ensconced in SCOTUS will (reluctantly) conclude that bans against same-sex marriages violate the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution.

I've also noticed the deafening silence the WTS has adopted over same-sex marriage of late. Condemning homosexuality itself is one thing and this the Society will continue to do. But denying the legality of duly sanctioned marriages is quite another. Will Witnesses, upon meeting a same-sex couple at the door, politely excuse themselves or will they try to engahge them in a discussion anyway? What is happening in other countries where same-sex marriage is legal? Has the WTS given instructions to its followers about handling these situations at the door? I'm sure they have received more than a few inquiries about this. It will be interesting to see what directions will be given.

Quendi

176

JW refuses to provide wedding stationery to Gay couple

by KateWild in

i was outraged at this and had to post it.. http://jehovahswitnessreport.com/blog/jw-refuses-to-provide-wedding-stationery-to-gay-couple.

i think she is a hypocrite and i bet she sells her invites to fornicators, or does she ask them if they are having sex before marrige, before she takes their money?.

i was never like this when i was a jw, it's even more disturbing that she is going to ask her elders what to do.

Quendi

I find the belief in the right of the majority to impose injustice upon others which mrhhomes and others like him have supported to be astonishing. State and even federal laws which have established and/or reinforced discriminatory practices against minorities should not be challenged according to their thinking because the majority has the right to impose them. They should not be challenged in courts either because the only proper arena for redress is through legislative action. If that means the countenancing and support of evil, so be it. Those who suffer under such injustice must wiat for a change in times and morals before expecting any relief.

Such was the reasoning of Chief Justice Roger Taney in 1857 when he wrote the Dred Scott decision. He went on to say that not even Congress had the power to abolish slavery since the Constitution did not grant black slaves any rights which a white man was bound to respect. What was most ironic about this was that Taney himself was personally opposed to slavery, but felt that legally there was nothing he or the courts should do about it. It was a cowardly decision that perpetuated misery for four million people until a war which killed hundreds of thousands finally settled the question. I am left to conclude that mrhhomes and other hardened libertarians like him are cut from the same bolt of cloth as Roger Taney. They would do nothing to oppose discrimination against others, especially since they are part of a group who would not face it. Those facing injustice should depend on the goodwill of legislatures rather than other organs of government for redress.

The founders of the American republic set up three branches of government--not one--to secure liberty for the population. They were wise enough to know that dependence on one group or branch of government for justice and freedom would not be the optimum case. If the power of government has grown over the decades it is due to the refusal of the majority to do the right thing in the first place. We have a Department of Labor because employers refused to pay fair wages, denied workers safe and sanitary workplaces, and would not institute a decent working week. They had no qualms about employing children in their sweat-shop factories even if that meant denying them the education they needed and deserved. We have a Department of Education because state governments refused to end poor standards in their schools, refused to end segregation based on race and ethnicity, refused to provide adequate school buildings and learning materials for all students. Other federal departments and bureaucracies were established primarily to correct injustices that a majority had no intention of doing so.

So when mrhholmes and other libertarians rant and rave against big government, they can take a good long look in the mirror for the reasons it arose. It was the refusal of a majority to listen to and make corrections for the minorities who first turned to them for justice that facilitated the development and growth of "big government." State governors and legislatures turned blind eyes and deaf ears to those suffering injustice, leaving these people with only the courts as an avenue for securing civil rights. Some courts took the Taney view while others decided that state and federal constitutions could be interpreted in such a way as to give relief. So when mrhholmes and others give the age old excuse that the will of the majority must not be gainsaid except by some kind of legislative action, they willfully side with tyranny and dictatorship.

The preamble of the American Constitution says that one of the reasons for establishing the federal government was to promote the general welfare. It is clear to me that libertarians like mrhholmes do not really believe the general welfare should be a concern of the government. Rather, that should arise from the goodwill of the people themselves. The founders took an opposite view. As James Madison, one of the chief writers of the Constitution noted, "If men were angels, there would be no need for government at all." Human imperfection is the reason we need government, and the glaring apathy toward injustice and hostility toward protecting minorities that some posters here have is reason enough to remain vigilant in the fight against evil.

Quendi

176

JW refuses to provide wedding stationery to Gay couple

by KateWild in

i was outraged at this and had to post it.. http://jehovahswitnessreport.com/blog/jw-refuses-to-provide-wedding-stationery-to-gay-couple.

i think she is a hypocrite and i bet she sells her invites to fornicators, or does she ask them if they are having sex before marrige, before she takes their money?.

i was never like this when i was a jw, it's even more disturbing that she is going to ask her elders what to do.

Quendi

As usual, mrhhome, you don't know what you're talking about when you take on personal beliefs of others. You say you haven't brought up controversial subjects with some in your circle because these discussions would be paingul. Well and good. But in the same breath you say that you're sure they would agree with you. You cite your conservative black friend as an example. I also have known many black conservatives in my day and none, even the most right-wing, would agree that any business has the right to deny them service. I would be interested in learning their reaction to your belief that they should. As for not knowing anything about family and friends and how to have a healthy relationship with them, you're full of it. But it is part and parcel of your way of thinking. Confronted with your own ignorance and bigotry, you project them upon others. Small wonder that your views about these matters are held by a shrinking minority of thinking people.

I see that you are at last engaging others in direct responses to some of their assertions while silently passing over others. You have your reasons for doing so, of course. Some of the answers you've given have been direct and forthcoming. Others are specious and riddled with thinking (gay promiscuity being one example) that have little or no basis in fact. I've seen that as typical of people with your mindset. When facts are not available, anecdotes are put in their place. Your lack of exposure to the thinking of many black and gay people has been amply reflected in your answers to the challengers you've engaged here.

Quendi

176

JW refuses to provide wedding stationery to Gay couple

by KateWild in

i was outraged at this and had to post it.. http://jehovahswitnessreport.com/blog/jw-refuses-to-provide-wedding-stationery-to-gay-couple.

i think she is a hypocrite and i bet she sells her invites to fornicators, or does she ask them if they are having sex before marrige, before she takes their money?.

i was never like this when i was a jw, it's even more disturbing that she is going to ask her elders what to do.

Quendi

I appreciated mrhhome's response to my exposure of his hypocrisy. The glance into his mirror showed him up to be "smug, self-righteous and presumptuous." I base this on the fact that he usually, though not always, avoids directly answering questions posed to him but instead resorts to name-calling. Being both black and gay, I know I would never want his conditional friendship. His claim to be open-minded is patently false. His tolerance of others falls far short of acceptance.

Have you told your black friends that you would adamantly support a business's right to actively discriminate against them, or have you hidden that belief under the banal platitudes you have offered here? Your refusal to answer cofty's question spoke volumes, revealing your real feelings about race relations. How long would any self-respecting black person put up with your company upon learning your thinking about a business's right to discriminate? You can rest assured it would not be for very long. Your comparisons of different sexual behaviors shows the same kind of shallow and specious reasoning you bring to questions about race. That is why I slammed your so-called friendships with people in the groups you named. You have comforted yourself with the lie that since you can live with people with whom you disagree this is equivalent to being fair and just. That is another example of the shallow thinking which has characterized your responses.

Your views, while retrograde and offensive, are useful in that they alert the rest of us how much further we still have to go in our society. Yes, you have acknowledged the validity of some of the challenges others have raised against your thinking, but the cornerstone of your philosophy remains intact. You believe certain people are inferior, but don't say this aloud. They should be tolerated only because the law says so. Acceptance should be withheld because that runs counter to your personal sensibilities. And government should never have a role in protecting those who are quite different from you. That is the hard libertarian view you espouse. And it is easy for you to do so since for now you are part of a group (white straight males) who occupy the apex of power and privilege in this country.

As I wrote above, I think your real fear is seeing how rapidly the political, cultural and social landscape of this country is changing. What you and many others of your persuasion hoped would take another forty or so years to transpire is happening right now despite your ardent wishes to the contrary. If you had your way, you would take the country back--back to the nineteenth century, that is. That is not going to happen. The tide has turned at last and its flood will lift all boats whether you like it or not.

Quendi

176

JW refuses to provide wedding stationery to Gay couple

by KateWild in

i was outraged at this and had to post it.. http://jehovahswitnessreport.com/blog/jw-refuses-to-provide-wedding-stationery-to-gay-couple.

i think she is a hypocrite and i bet she sells her invites to fornicators, or does she ask them if they are having sex before marrige, before she takes their money?.

i was never like this when i was a jw, it's even more disturbing that she is going to ask her elders what to do.

Quendi

Mrhhome wrote, "Will you bring flowers to my funeral?"

While I wouldn't mourn overmuch, I would gladly give a donation to the local GLBT community center in your name. Since you number gays, blacks, Democrats and Baptists among your friends, I'm sure you wouldn't mind making such a posthumous contribution.

Quendi

176

JW refuses to provide wedding stationery to Gay couple

by KateWild in

i was outraged at this and had to post it.. http://jehovahswitnessreport.com/blog/jw-refuses-to-provide-wedding-stationery-to-gay-couple.

i think she is a hypocrite and i bet she sells her invites to fornicators, or does she ask them if they are having sex before marrige, before she takes their money?.

i was never like this when i was a jw, it's even more disturbing that she is going to ask her elders what to do.

Quendi

I want to respond to mrhhome's comment about having black friends and his reaction to the discrimination they faced. I believe that his beliefs are a good example of the cognizant dissonance that we so often associate with Jehovah's Witnesses: the holding of two beliefs that are contradictory. I don't expect mrhhome to agree with my finding, but that is how I see it. What is also clear to me is that mrhhome is a hard libertarian who believes that government influence in daily life should be pared down to an absolute minimum. That view has been around since the establishment of the American republic and has always had its supporters. I do not agree with this philosophy because I believe that it is a great enabler of evil. It promotes the idea that minorities should not be cared for and about unless they can secure political power for themselves. I am grateful that this is a minority view in this country.

Quendi

176

JW refuses to provide wedding stationery to Gay couple

by KateWild in

i was outraged at this and had to post it.. http://jehovahswitnessreport.com/blog/jw-refuses-to-provide-wedding-stationery-to-gay-couple.

i think she is a hypocrite and i bet she sells her invites to fornicators, or does she ask them if they are having sex before marrige, before she takes their money?.

i was never like this when i was a jw, it's even more disturbing that she is going to ask her elders what to do.

Quendi

I just wanted to say that I have benefited from reading this discussion. The specious arguments advanced by mrhhome and those who agree with him have been ably refuted here. I am not troubled by their presentation because they remind me that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. That is particularly true in societies which are governed by rule of law because it is easy to believe that the absence of armed civil strife means that all civil rights have been secured.

I witnessed and lived through the civil rights movement in the United States as first blacks and then other people of color pushed back against entrenched discrimination. I saw the women's liberation movement blossom and bear fruit in the same soil. Now it is sexual minorities who are broadening the spectrum and definition of human rights. If I have been surprised by anything in the GLBT movement, it is the speed of the progress that has been made these last ten years in this country and elsewhere. Perhaps this is what mrhhome and others of his persuasion have found most unsettling. It has not been the advances themselves they have found as disturbing as much as their rapidity and growing acceptance. Mrhhome claims to have friends who are gay, Democrats and Baptists and whose philosophies are markedly different from his own. Good for him. But I have to wonder about the degree and intensity of those relationships because based on the sentiments he has shared here, I can only believe they are superficial and shallow.

Quendi

50

Ray Franz - is he REALLY a hero?

by baltar447 in

jw
friends

on one hand, he's enlightnened many to the internal circle jerk that is the governing body (circa the 70s).. but if there's one reason that can be pointed to for the jws becoming full on cult, it's ray franz.

without him leaving in the manner he did, and stirring the pot, they might not have change the rule (retroatively i might add) on shunning of disassociated ones.

they specifically changed that so they could remove him and eliminate his influence.. his actions single handedly have created the situation where we have to fade, evade, leave marriages, say goodbye to family, just because we don't buy the jw bullsh!t anymore.

Quendi

bttt

Quendi

162

...The WBT$ Theft of Kingdom Hall Bank Accounts and JW Elders...

by OUTLAW in

.. the new wbt$ donation arrangement/ jw kingdom hall bank account theft... is a very hot topic right now... the wbt$ is literally going to clean out kingdom hall bank accounts,filled with donations from jws... that theft is going to happen world wide..the wbt$ is going to steal from 7 million plus jw`s... .. we have jw elders here on jwn,that know whats going on... they "serve" in kingdom halls,they are "supposed" to be looking after the welfare of the average jw... they know there is a 4 page letter,only one page will be read to the congregation..the rest will be kept secret... they know the wbt$ is about to steal jw donations..on a world wide scale!!!...

.. i would like to know what you active jw elders are going to do about this??!!...

are you going to let "your" congregation know about the other 3 secret pages?...

Quendi

I suppose I'm just stupid, but I can't find a copy of this letter. Would somebody please post a link to it?

Thanks,

Quendi

49

The List, by "Prominent Bethelite"

by morloc in

i occasionally pop through here to catch up on the latest, but this time i'm going to pop my own post on here.. some of you internet oldsters may even remember this.

my first experience on the internet regarding discussions about jehovah's witnesses and the watchtower took place on a now-obscure usenet group, before i eventually stumbled across hourglass2.. during those days, there was a poster who went by the name "prominent bethelite," an otherwise anonymous individual whom i remember most for an extensive, exhaustive compilation of date-oriented remarks, predictions, and expectations by the watchtower organization down through the decades of its history.. it became known as "the list" and it's definitely lengthy... but a fascination look at the abundance of errant statements made through the watchtower's history.. if you're curious, it's been available for a long time on hourglass2's site, and can be seen using the link provided below.. the list, compiled by prominent bethelite (1999).

that's about it for this stop through here.

Quendi

Thanks for the posting.

Quendi