Posts by Quendi

28

Study Conductor Challenge (plus hello!)

by educatingMyself in

alreet everyone!.

i've been watching and learning for a while, nice one on helping me see the real truth!.

long story short -> got interested in christianity, jws first to ask me about it, studied for a few months, realised they were wrong, tried to be a good undercover apostate, got bored, left, joined a local protestant church.. anyway thats not the reason i'm posting.

Quendi

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16

Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 06-12-2011 WT Study (DECISIONS)

by blondie in

jw
friends

make decisions.

all the decisions that we make?

why make decisions at all?.

Quendi

Blondie:

Thank you once again for your review. I especially appreciated the point you raised about the WTS equating its own publications with the Bible itself. Witnesses are never told to consult the Bible alone when seeking information with respect to making decisions. Nor are they told that praying to God is enough. Instead, the WTS publications are almost always mentioned in the same breath as the Bible and prayer.

At my last meeting with my judicial committee, I was told that the only way I could gain reinstatement was to acknowledge that the WTS was God's exclusive channel for communicating truth to mankind. In other words, unless I embraced WTS publications as sources of divine wisdom, my request for reinstatement would be summarily denied. For me that was the last straw. There was no way I was going to equate the word of fallible men with the word of God. I had already come to realize this was going to be the condition for readmittance, but I wanted to hear it come straight from the elders' mouths.

This latest Watchtower review merely underscores the fact that this religion is a cult. It is bad enough that inconsistent, twisted thinking is presented as sound reasoning with a Scriptural basis. What is worse is the great harm being done to millions of JWs who are convinced that following WTS directions will lead them to everlasting life. I rejoice that I have escaped the clutches of this group. Your contributions strengthen my resolve never to return.

Quendi

42

The Generation(s) That Wasted Their Lives

by undercover in

jw
friends

growing up as a jw, you see the world differently than most everyone else.

you see the world as something that is going to end very soon.

all that we know will be gone by the time we're adults.. when we were young, we were living in the last days and were expecting armageddon before we grew old.

Quendi

I am now in my mid-fifties, middle-age, but I don't regret the more than thirty years association with Jehovah's Witnesses. Yes, I did spend those years "chasing rainbows" as it were. But I also got to meet many wonderful people, some of whom became the closest friends I ever had. And even though I am now disfellowshipped and am shunned by most of my Witness friends, I still have fond memories of what we did have. I also learned many worthwhile things as a Witness as far as how to treat other people. I pioneered, and attending the Pioneer Service School has made a significant impact on my life. I also benefitted from the training I got in the Theocratic Ministry School and the Service Meeting. I learned how to become a very good public speaker (although I never gave a Public Talk during all my years in the religion), how to listen carefully to others, and how to be the kind of mentor who could have and has had a positive influence on the lives of others.

One of the biggest problems the WTS has is its refusal to let go. It started out as a group of Bible students seeking better understanding of the Scriptures. It has metamorphosed into this monster that seeks to control every aspect of a person's life. It refuses to let people grow and develop at their own individual pace. It refuses to recognize that "children" grow up, mature, and become quite capable of making their own way in the world. Unlike secular institutions that train workers or inductees so that they will be able to shoulder any responsibility placed upon them, the WTS instead tells its followers that they should never do anything without consulting it first and seeking its permission for any undertaking. It is no wonder that it is suffering a "brain drain". Creative people will leave to pursue their dreams among those who will support, not control, them.

Since leaving the religion I am making efforts to get back into public education. My years as a Witness combined with my college education (which I completed nine years ago) have equipped me for this. While I am grateful for the positive things I did get out of my time as a Witness, I cannot deny that the organization's repressive and backward way of looking at things has done great harm to many. Talent and ability have been squashed. People have been herded into meaningless and frustrating jobs because they were told that their "theocratic" activity was the most important thing to pursue. Association with those who could help a person hone skills, talents, and abilities has been actively discouraged because these people are "worldly" or "do not love Jehovah".

I think the reason the WTS has taken this tack is very simple. It is a cult; and cults want blanket control over their followers. That control is given a veneer of love and concern so that the follower won't question the reason behind the demands placed upon him or her. I can only hope that Witnesses wishing to follow their dreams will find the strength, courage, and support to do so both from within and those who truly have their best interests at heart. For clearly the WTS has no such desire.

Quendi

33

They Came, They Said, They Left

by snowbird in

they came to the rural black belt county of wilcox in alabama, in the year 1970. hailing from exotic places such as new york, new jersey, connecticut, and massachusetts, they were bright, articulate, and persuasive.. they said the end was close, that the year 1975 would probably be the farthest limit for the current "system of things.

" some of us believed them and embraced their theology wholeheartedly.

we wrote letters of resignation to our respective churches and hit the highways and byways, hawking the wt message to stunned families and friends.. 1975 came and went - nothing.

Quendi

My first contact with JWs came in 1968 when I was a boy of twelve. I remember the excitement about 1975 back then. I renewed contact with the Witnesses three years later and, if anything, the buzz was even louder. By the time I began my own formal study, it was 1974 and excitement was at a fever pitch. However, the man who studied with me was more circumspect than most. He kept saying 'nobody knows the day or hour' and cautioned me very strongly about putting my eggs in the 1975 basket. As a result, when the year passed without the end coming, I experienced only mild disappointment. My teacher had told me that my dedication to Jehovah was to be lifelong and would be in force until I died. He was a wise man in that regard and I did well to listen to him.

As the years went by and 1975 moved to the rearview mirror, I noticed how the WTS shifted the blame for everyone's expectations onto the rank and file, saying that many had 'run ahead of Jehovah'. It wasn't until the summer of 1980, during that year's series of district conventions, that the organization finally admitted that it had played up expectations and therefore bore some responsibility for the shattered hopes many had. Still, we were told that the end was closer than ever, and that we should not give up on our hope of seeing it very soon. Like many who heard those words, I was a loyal Witness and didn't think that anything was seriously wrong with the Society's understanding of Bible prophecy.

Doubt began to sprout in me with the November 1, 1995 Watchtower article on the meaning of a "generation". Twenty years had passed since 1975's dawn and many of us were clearly growing weary and were burning out. The new explanation gave some of us new hope, but even then I wondered how Jehovah could have let his people believe in something that was clearly wrong for so long. If He really loved us, wouldn't he have corrected any false impressions immediately, just as Jesus did with his followers at Acts 1:6, 7? But even then I did not question the legitimacy of the Society's understanding and claimed status as "God's organization".

It wasn't until the new century was well underway that I finally began to loosen the shackles and it took my being disfellowshipped to do that. I suppose that shows just how strong the grip this cult had on me was. Prior to my disfellowshipping, I had been assisting an elder I knew in his own Bible research and was beginning to learn many things that completely contradicted WTS doctrine. When I was put out, I continued my research with him as he refused to shun me. Finally, I was convinced that the WTS teachings about Bible prophecy were completely false. It was then that I ceased any and all efforts to get reinstated.

I find it interesting to see how the WTS has completely whitewashed its role in promoting 1975 as the year the end would come. Others have remarked how they never heard it mentioned when they studied with the Witnesses or if it was discussed that was done in a perfunctory fashion. But that is nothing new. Look at how the Society has downplayed or even denied its teachings about the end coming in 1914 and 1925. None of us was alive then, so it was easy for the organization to pretend those expectations were never given prominence. As Voltaire once remarked, "The more it changes, the more it stays the same." That certainly is true of the WTS and has been throughout its history.

Quendi

33

Lies about Suicides in Congregations

by EXMS in

have you ever noticed what the elders say when a depressed person commits suicide?.

i unfortunately knew of two people in my area, one a guy about my age, the other was in his mid 40's that commited suicide.

both times, at their memorials, the elders from stage said that they were home alone and was cleaning their hand gun/ rifle when it accidently fired and killed them.

Quendi

Undercover: I am sorry for your loss as well, but am glad that we both found the strength to continue on. The "spiritual paradise" the WTS constantly prates about is no better than the "worker's paradise" the old Soviet Union used to brag about. Indeed, the effect both have had on their respective rank and file has been identical in my view.

Talesin: I appreciate your kind words. Sharing ourselves with others, both the good and bad, is very therapeutic.

LHG: When Tom refused to go to the elders right before his death, I did not then understand why he had such animosity toward them. Years later, when I was haled to a judicial committee with my own problems, I finally discerned the reason. I was condemned in no uncertain terms and then told that while the elders personally wanted to be "merciful" they had "no choice" but to disfellowship me. I think Tom heard much the same. He was never df'd, but his treatment doubtless made him feel unwanted, unaccepted, and unloved.

Quendi

33

Lies about Suicides in Congregations

by EXMS in

have you ever noticed what the elders say when a depressed person commits suicide?.

i unfortunately knew of two people in my area, one a guy about my age, the other was in his mid 40's that commited suicide.

both times, at their memorials, the elders from stage said that they were home alone and was cleaning their hand gun/ rifle when it accidently fired and killed them.

Quendi

My best friend killed himself in November 1986. I have never fully recovered from his death. He shot himself in the head with a .44 Magnum. I suppose Tom simply wanted to make sure he had no chance of surviving the attempt.

We held his memorial service in a funeral home due to the WTS rule against a Kingdom Hall use. I thought that was heartless and cruel, but it was very important that at least Tom had a memorial service. The Witness who gave the talk was the man who had originally studied with him years earlier in New York. He flew out to Colorado at the request of Tom's widow. He delivered a warm and loving talk which gave much comfort to all of us who attended. He confronted the question of why Tom had done this by simply saying that our friend and brother was dealing with many emotional and mental stresses and simply could not cope with them anymore. There were quite a few non-Witnesses who came to the service. I think they were especially glad to hear that Tom was not roasting in hell but rather was at rest and that we could take comfort in Jehovah's promise of a resurrection.

Tom suffered from bi-polar disorder and there were other problems as well. I am certain that all of these played major roles in his decision to kill himself. I have never seen as much pain and grief as I did on the day of Tom's memorial service. So many of us loved him, and it was such a great tragedy that he had ceased to love himself. The elders in the congregation were completely unequipped to handle his situation. They offered little in the way of affection or sound advice. I'm not blaming Tom's death on them because that was a decision he made himself. But his suicide made me think long and hard about the entire elder arrangement and its legitimacy. These men, supposedly appointed by holy spirit, were incapable of helping him. Tom never trusted them, and when I asked him to talk to them about his problems he told me he would never do so because their past "help" had only consisted of criticizing his attitude and pointing out his mistakes.

Forgive me for rehashing a very personal experience, but Tom was the best friend I have ever had, and his loss opened a wound that has never fully healed. I had thought that "God's organization" would be the perfect refuge for those of us suffering from humanity's various maladies. I have since learned better and now have left it behind. But the hubris and arrogance that have attached themselves to the WTS are a natural development given its distorted self-image. More than ever I understand what another late friend told me. An organization cannot love anyone. So when problems arise and the duly appointed leaders have to rely on rulebooks and written directives from headquarters instead of their natural humanity, then it should come as no surprise that those who look to that kind of direction suffer disappointment.

Now I have known of elders who were good men and did their level best in treating the flock with tenderness. But over the years what I have observed is that if there has always been a need for elders in the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses, the need for shepherds has been far greater. Many have met the WTS standard for elders and ministerial servants, but very, very few have been shepherds. I'm not surprised to see problems mount and unhappiness and misery spread among the rank and file. Considering the quality of the "leadership" from the Governing Body on down, it could hardly be otherwise.

Quendi

66

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures

by Quendi in

i know this has been discussed before, but i want to reopen the topic.

i am currently reading ray franz's memoir crisis of conscience and ran across this footnote with respect to the new world translation of the holy scriptures:.

"the new world translation bears no translator's name and is presented as the anonymous work of the "new world translation committee.

Quendi

I want to thank everyone for their remarks. It is good to have a discussion on this important topic. I will address a few comments from others that particularly impressed me.

saltyoldlady - I am glad that you are enjoying this thread and I enjoyed your contribution to it. Comparing different Bible translations side-by-side is one way novices like us can get some feel for the challenges translating work actually entails.

86theWT - I strongly suspect that what you said is how the New World Translation was produced. A friend of mine served in Bethel back in the 1970s. She mentioned a visit to Fred Franz's office and remarked that the walls were covered with many book-lined shelves. Some of those books were works on biblical languages. So he probably was the "chief" translator with the others filling in where they could. I agree with those who say they should have consulted outside experts. Better still, they should have enrolled in schools and/or colleges where they could have learned the biblical languages directly.

Terry - With all due respect, my friend, I think you have made a serious error with your example of translating the replacement pronouns for wisdom in the book of Proverbs. Let me illustrate what I mean. The Latin word for wisdom is sapientia, and that is in the feminine gender. When a pronoun is used in its place, the expression would read: "Sapientiam amas? Ea estne pretiosa?" This means, "Do you love wisdom? Isn't it precious?" The pronoun is also feminine because the antecedent noun is of that gender. So the pronoun must match the antecedent noun in gender and number. A literal translation of the second sentence would be "Isn't she precious?" But that would make absolutely no sense to an English speaker and reader. Why not? Because wisdom is neuter in English, and so any pronoun referring to it would also be neuter. Doing otherwise only confuses the reader thus defeating the purpose of translating in the first place.

Languages such as Hebrew, Greek, and Latin had many inanimate nouns that were endowed with a gender. That is far less common in English. The job of the translator is to speak to his readers, and so rendering passages literally is not always advisable. Whatever other faults the NWT has, you have chosen a very poor example to make your point. Having worked at translating an ancient language into a modern living one, I know some of the pitfalls that await. Your example is one of them, and savvy translators would have followed the same lead as the NWT in this case. This is not a situation where some hidden religious or theological agenda is being pushed.

Band on the Run - I appreciate your efforts to learn koine Greek and I hope you will eventually find success. I especially liked your comment about the limited value of reference books in learning another language, particularly an ancient one. Nothing is better than receiving direct instruction in this matter.

Juan Viejo2 - You are completely wrong to say that "Jehovah" is an English word. It's first appearance in Christian literature was a Latin work entitled Pugio Fidei (Dagger of the Faith) that was written back in the twelfth century. The "Jehovah" version of the Divine Name is used in other languages besides English, French, Italian, and Spanish being just a few. While the vowels from the Hebrew words Elohim and Adonai may very well have been appropriated to concoct the form "Jehovah", to say this was something conjured up only in English is a serious error. You need to do much better research than you have.

TD - Thanks for your remarks. I think that there are good reasons for incorporating the Divine Name in the New Testament although I will add that perhaps the NWT took a few liberties in doing so. The New Testament writers quoted from or made reference to the Greek Septuagint (LXX) version of the Old Testament whenever they needed to. Papyrus fragments of the LXX have been found that did indeed include the Divine Name written in the ancient Hebrew characters. Jerome, translator of the Latin Vulgate, knew about this and referred to it in his writings. So, since the Divine Name did appear in some LXX manuscripts, passages in the New Testament which either quote those same passages or make reference to them could properly incorporate the Divine Name in my view. And, as I said above, the NWT is not the first Bible to insert the Divine Name into its New Testament translation.

Does this mean that I agree with every occurrence of the Divine Name in the NWT New Testament? No, I do not. Those who say that the NWT Committee was pursuing its own agenda do have a strong case. I also understand the arguments of those who say that no form of the Divine Name appears in the best ancient New Testament manuscripts that we have and therefore it should not appear in any subsequent translations.

I am perfectly comfortable reading Bible translations and versions that do not have the Divine Name in either the Old or New Testaments. But I think that we have to realize that translation is not an exact science, and also that all translations reflect the religious inclinations of the translator(s). If we keep this in mind, then we can enjoy fruitful Bible reading and study because we will consult with as many different translators as possible.

Clarity - I will enlarge the fonts in my posts from now on. Thank you for bringing the problem smaller typefaces have caused you. I'm sure you aren't the only one who likes larger print.

My friends, let's keep on talking. I am really enjoying this discussion.

Quendi

66

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures

by Quendi in

i know this has been discussed before, but i want to reopen the topic.

i am currently reading ray franz's memoir crisis of conscience and ran across this footnote with respect to the new world translation of the holy scriptures:.

"the new world translation bears no translator's name and is presented as the anonymous work of the "new world translation committee.

Quendi

Carla - The rendering of the Divine Name is simply a red herring that others sieze upon to avoid using it altogether. As Bible translator Stephen Byington put it so well, the rendering "Jehovah" is certainly a blunder. Nevertheless, he went on to say, it is very important to realize that YHWH is a personal name, not to be erased by titles such as LORD, the ETERNAL, or other sobriquets. Furthermore, the NWT is hardly the only translation to use some form of YHWH for God's name. Are you also going to denounce the Catholic Jerusalem Bible or the 1901 American Standard Version for their renderings? I should hope not.

As for the NWT's use of the Divine Name in the New Testament, again it was not the first Bible translation to do so. Other Bibles, going all the way back to the seventeenth century have done the same. So the NWT's doing so was hardly a first, although it was certainly unusual for a twentieth century English version.

I would also have appreciated your naming some ofthe other sites you'd like me to consult or giving their URLs. That would save me some time. I want to thank you for your reply, but I also don't want this discussion to descend into name-calling and polemics. You say the NWT is "perversed" and "dishonest". That doesn't contribute anything positive to this thread and is something I can determine for myself.

transhuman - Thank you for the URL that you gave. I hope I can make good use of it in my own research.

WontLeave - Thank you as well for your answer. I know Latin quite well and have had some exposure to Greek. What you say about how the NWT Committee may have gone about its work is illuminating. I suppose its decision to do it that way may have been rooted in a desire to keep the entire translation project "in the family". If so, that was a very short-sighted approach. Still, the translation has had its non-Witness praisers and defenders as well as detractors. It has its strengths as well as its weaknesses. My goal is to try to understand the Bible from an exegetical and hermeneutical viewpoint, hence the posting of this question.

I look forward to other replies.

Quendi

66

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures

by Quendi in

i know this has been discussed before, but i want to reopen the topic.

i am currently reading ray franz's memoir crisis of conscience and ran across this footnote with respect to the new world translation of the holy scriptures:.

"the new world translation bears no translator's name and is presented as the anonymous work of the "new world translation committee.

Quendi

I know this has been discussed before, but I want to reopen the topic. I am currently reading Ray Franz's memoir Crisis of Conscience and ran across this footnote with respect to the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures:

"The New World Translation bears no translator's name and is presented as the anonymous work of the "New World Translation Committee." Other members of that committee were Nathan Knorr, Albert Schroeder, and George Gangas. Fred Franz, however, was the only one with sufficient knowledge of the Bible languages to attempt translation of this kind. He had studied Greek for two years at the University of Cincinnati but was only self-taught in Hebrew."

Now I have no concern with Fred Franz background as far as it goes. He probably knew enough koine Greek to attempt translating the New Testament himself. Anyone sufficiently trained could do that and many people have done just so down through the centuries. Well and good. But I doubt he knew enough about Hebrew to tackle the Old Testament. And in addition to Hebrew he would also have had to know Aramaic in order to translate portions of the book of Daniel.

So my questions are, Who are/were the people who produced the New World Translation? Fred Franz clearly could not have done this alone, and the other named members of the New World Translation Committee lacked the training and competency for such work. Strong scholarship is needed to undertake the arduous task of Bible translation, and the named committee members lacked this. And if we don't know who these people were, how can we put any trust in their work or have confidence in them?

I like the New World Translation. I think its restoration of the Divine Name to the text (even in the New Testament) is a great strength, and its contemporary language is refreshing. However, just because I like it doesn't mean that I should put blind faith in it. Also I have also come to realize that real Bible study means using a wide variety of translations as well as different Bible concordances, Greek and Hebrew lexicons and dictionaries, and other tools. I am in the process of acquiring these and I also want to study koine Greek when the opportunity presents itself. But now I am having grave concerns about the quality of the New World Translation itself. How reliable is it? How can I check its accuracy? What other resources should I consult and use in my personal Bible study and reading? I no longer consider WTS publications to be as reliable, accurate, or unbiased as they should be although there are a few that can still be useful.

So I would appreciate any help, suggestions, and counsel that any of you would like to share. I don't believe I am alone in my concerns or interests in this matter. And while not everyone who wants to serve God has an interest in biblical languages or scholarship, I like to think there are not only a fair number who are so inclined, but that they also want to associate with others of like mind. My friends, I want to thank you in advance for your help and I await your replies.

Quendi

44

The GB tightening their grip! Straw to break a camel's back?

by punkofnice in

i post on a couple of forums and read and lurk and all that stuff.. a theme that seems to be gaining momentum is about how the gb are 'tightening their grip' and 'becoming more cultish'.. i don't read the publications anymore and oddly i read extracts of them on the forums.. punk is babbling now.............sorry...................my questions are (sorry if they're a bit long.

sorry if i sound like satan: 'is it really so?

' but then i am a mentally diseased apostate).. 1. are the gb really tightening their grip or is it just the same as it ever was........but..........we just notice the propaganda more now we're out?.

Quendi

From my viewpoint the GB is definitely tightening its grip on the rank and file. I noticed this even when I was still on the inside. What particular action got my attention? It was the new rules about who could use the Kingdom Hall for a wedding. The couple who wanted a Hall wedding had to be interrogated by an elder as to their conduct during courtship as well as pass muster with the service committee. Maybe it had always been that way, but the Service Meeting part that covered this listed the questions the couple had to answer as well as the onerous rules that were imposed as to the music played, who could be in the wedding party, etc. While listening to this part I thought to myself, "If I were thinking about a wedding ceremony, I'd rather have a civil one than go through this nonsense!"

The new Flock book has only reinforced the belief of tighter control. I think back to what I know of the organization's history and wonder how a small group of "Bible Students" whose only concern was to learn more about the Bible through reading and study could have morphed into the Pharisaical, tyrannical monster it is today. I suppose all the "new light" that has flashed forth over the last 120+ years has blinded the Society's leadership.

Quendi