Posts by Quendi

25

We can't let them get away with it: HAVING IT BOTH WAYS!

by Terry in

what is the claim of the watchtower society as to the source of their authority to create public messages of dire warning?.

mouthpiece of god.. .

anointed remnant (faithful and discreet slave).

Quendi

When I brought up the WTS history of conflicting and contradictory teachings to a Witness friend of mine recently, the expressions that crossed his face said everything. At first he fell back on the old chestnut, "These men are imperfect, so they will make mistakes." I didn't let him get away with that. I answered that Jesus said the holy spirit would lead his true followers in all the ways of the truth, not some. And that so-called progressive revelation would never contradict previous ones if God was the source. My friend struggled with that and in the end resorted to another favorite WTS tactic: name-calling. He told me that I was succumbing to pride and arrogance, thinking I knew better than the "slave" about the Bible.

Cognitive dissonance can make Witnesses extremely uncomfortable when they are forced to confront it. I did not expect my friend to immediately agree with me. All I could hope for was that I planted some seeds that might sprout later. But I also thought about something else Jesus said. He talked about how knowing the truth would make a person free. Knowing the truth about the WTS has certainly done that for me. I'm still amazed that I took in WTS teaching and practice without any kind of critical examination. Like the sirens' song, I was seduced by what I heard and wanted desperately to believe it. It is clear now that the WTS wants to have it both ways, but now those of us who want to resist have the means to do so very effectively.

Quendi

68

Interracial Marriage

by Quendi in

here is a question i want to pose because i do not know the correct answer.

i have seen many interracial married couples among jehovah's witnesses--moreso than i have seen in other religions.

however, i have been told that once upon a time, interracial marriage was frowned upon by the wts hierarchy.

Quendi

Here is a question I want to pose because I do not know the correct answer. I have seen many interracial married couples among Jehovah's Witnesses--moreso than I have seen in other religions. However, I have been told that once upon a time, interracial marriage was frowned upon by the WTS hierarchy. I know of one couple in Alabama who had a civil ceremony when none of the local elders would perform it for them or allow the Kingdom Hall to be used for their wedding. One man told me he believed that decades ago not only were these marriages actively discouraged, but that persons entering into them could be disfellowshipped!

I didn't want to believe this, but when I read some of the racist beliefs of Charles Taze Russell, I had to admit that it was a possibility. Disfellowshipping wasn't something Russell actively practiced, but his successors have with a vengeance. Is it possible that J.F. Rutherford could have issued such an edict, only to have it reversed by N.H. Knorr? Or is this simply a phony story made up by some malcontent? Is there anything in the literature that could shed some "old light" on this question?

Quendi

140

Why So Many Young People Are Leaving The Watchtower

by Jeremy C in

i have been giving a lot of thought to the young people who are leaving the watchtower organization in recent years.

last night, i was reading the thread posted by jwfacts a while back in which he provided some statistics and graphs showing the rapidly declining growth in the watchtower.

one factor that was discussed at length was the high number of young people who do not stay in the organization.

Quendi

I want to add a little more to my previous post. Having left the WTS behind, I'm through with organized religion of any kind, period. Yes, I still believe in God and the Bible, but I've had it with religious organizations. I read with interest the experiences of those who have joined other churches, especially the so-called "mega" churches. That is not the route for me. I don't want to go to church to be entertained or come out with a warm and fuzzy feeling. I want to worship instead. That doesn't mean submitting to the dry, tasteless, boring, and depressing stuff served up at the local Kingdom Hall, but it doesn't mean embracing its opposite, either.

I do believe our Creator wants his human children to be happy and free. I also think that any worship should help us pursue happiness and freedom. That is why I have decided that the best thing for me is to tread my own spiritual path. I can read and study the Bible on my own or with others. There are plenty of resources available to facilitate that nowadays and I am very glad to take advantage of them. This board is one of those resources. I suppose what I'm saying is that religion is a deeply personal matter, and no church is going to meet my needs. I don't know how I would ever feel close to God if my worship consisted entirely of gathering with thousands of others once a week. For me, that would be the same as attending a district convention or a circuit assembly every week. I didn't feel particularly close to God at those mass gatherings either. On the other hand, I can understand why some would be comfortable in those kinds of settings.

Others have found churches where their needs and those of their children are being met. I am happy for them and wish them all the best. I have attended services at churches where the congregation was warm and friendly and made me feel welcome. But I also came away feeling that I had not learned anything about my Creator that would make me love him more. In the end, the words of the apostle Paul to the Areopagus must be my guide: "And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell upon the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the apponted times and the set limits of the dwelling of men, for them to seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us." --Acts 17:26, 27

Quendi

140

Why So Many Young People Are Leaving The Watchtower

by Jeremy C in

i have been giving a lot of thought to the young people who are leaving the watchtower organization in recent years.

last night, i was reading the thread posted by jwfacts a while back in which he provided some statistics and graphs showing the rapidly declining growth in the watchtower.

one factor that was discussed at length was the high number of young people who do not stay in the organization.

Quendi

I want to thank Jeremy C for his post. It is by far the finest I have read on this board. As unshackeled noted, I'm only sorry that I have not read his previous ones. I have put it in a separate file that I intend to share with others. That is because what is said about the lack of appeal this cult has for young people applies equally to anyone who rediscovers his God-given free will and power of reason.

I believe the deck is sloping and the furniture is sliding for the WTS. I hope I live to see its demise. At the same time, I feel pity and sorrow for those who are yet trapped aboard. There are still lifeboats available, but many of the passengers and crew won't get into them. They keep hoping for the rescue ship called Armageddon to arrive and same them, but their hopes are in vain, and I fear many will suffer the bitterest of disappointments. At the same time, I rejoice in my own escape. I have my life back and can look forward to spending my remaining years at peace, content, and happy.

Quendi

25

We can't let them get away with it: HAVING IT BOTH WAYS!

by Terry in

what is the claim of the watchtower society as to the source of their authority to create public messages of dire warning?.

mouthpiece of god.. .

anointed remnant (faithful and discreet slave).

Quendi

Bookmarking so I can take part in this discussion later.

Quendi

28

WOULD THE WATCHTOWER ACCEPT A LARGE FINANCIAL BEQUEST FROM A DISFELLOWSHIPPED JW'S ESTATE?

by steve2 in

jw
friends

i ransacked entire dusty volumes of watchtowers in search of an answer to this vexing question.

imagine that a jw has been disfellowshipped for apostasy .

would the watchtower accept such bequests?.

Quendi

Hi Everyone,

All of you have raised valid objections to my example of the Michael Jackson donation. Yes, this was in the public eye so that would have made acceptance a PR nightmare. The UN deal, as we all know, was done behind the backs of the rank and file. That is how the WTS was able to get away with it for nearly ten years. And, ziddina, I don't know if Jackson's mother offered the donation. If she did, perhaps at the prompting of Michael himself, I'm sure the Society would have gladly taken it.

All of this reminds me of a story about the building of the Colosseum in Rome. Emperor Vespasian was running short of cash for the project. He then hit upon the novel idea of making people pay to empty the public urinals in Rome, the world's first "pay toilets", as it were. He did so because the city's dry cleaners would collect the urine, distill ammonia from it, and then use that ammonia in their dry cleaning process. The emperor decided to makie the dry cleaners pay for the privilege.

Well, this didn't sit too well his the emperor's son, Trajan, who told his father he should be ashamed to be taxing piss. In reply the emperor gave his son an evil smile, and then put one of the gold tax coins under his son's nose, telling him to sniff deeply. When Trajan did so, telling his father he could smell nothing and what was the point, the emperor replied, "Money has no odor. Did this money come from a man's pouch or his piss?" Trajan got the point. I have the feeling the WTS is just as unconcerned about the sources of its donations too.

Quendi

28

WOULD THE WATCHTOWER ACCEPT A LARGE FINANCIAL BEQUEST FROM A DISFELLOWSHIPPED JW'S ESTATE?

by steve2 in

jw
friends

i ransacked entire dusty volumes of watchtowers in search of an answer to this vexing question.

imagine that a jw has been disfellowshipped for apostasy .

would the watchtower accept such bequests?.

Quendi

My understanding is that if they know the source of the money/funds is a disfellowshipped person, the WTS would not accept it. I know this goes contrary to what has been posted here, but I think I have a valid reason for my position. Some years ago, Michael Jackson made a large donation to the WTS. At that time he had been disfellowshipped for some years. His donation was returned on the ground that he was disfellowshipped and accepting the money was the same as willfully associating with a disfellowshipped person.

True, Jackson was alive then. But I believe that seeing how the WTS looked at his status vis-a-vis the organization, it felt it had to set an example conisistent with its rulings. What if the person was now dead? Would that make a difference? I don't believe so. From the WTS perspective, that person is now rotting in Gehenna's basement and will never be resurrected but has been judged worthy of everlasting destruction. Any contribution to its coffers, however much that would be desired, would have to be declined.

On the other hand, the WTS has gladly accepted donations from non-Witnesses and any organizations they might represent. Some years ago, Bill Gates' foundation made a large donation to the Society in recognition of its work combatting illiteracy in many third world countries. That money went directly into the coffers without any demur.

Quendi

41

New WT and Higher Education...Beware of the logical fallacy in the first sentence.

by maninthemiddle in

beware of the logical fallacy in the first sentence, not to mention all the loaded language.. .

wt 2011-11-15. .

11 vigilant christians refrain from using the world to the full with regard to higher education.. many people in this world consider higher education an indispensable stepping-stone to prestige and an affluent.

Quendi

@breakfast of champions:

I know exactly how you feel and agree completely.

The hypocrisy of this organization continues to plumb new depths. They badmouth higher education at every turn, then beg for assistance from those who possess the kind of specialized knowledge that only a higher education can give. They want the services of doctors, lawyers, CPAs, architects, civil, electrical, and mechanical engineers, and architects, just to name a few. They talk out of both sides of their mouth when soliciting such help, telling Witnesses who do not have these skills they should not go to college to acquire them. That always disturbed me when I was in the organization and now that I'm out, I just want to scream whenever I read their posturings on this subject.

Quendi

41

New WT and Higher Education...Beware of the logical fallacy in the first sentence.

by maninthemiddle in

beware of the logical fallacy in the first sentence, not to mention all the loaded language.. .

wt 2011-11-15. .

11 vigilant christians refrain from using the world to the full with regard to higher education.. many people in this world consider higher education an indispensable stepping-stone to prestige and an affluent.

Quendi

I've enjoyed reading this thread and agree with all the posters. I dropped out of college back in 1977--studying metallurgy at the time--because I was convinced Armageddon was close and I should devote all my time and energy to the preaching work. My decision broke my poor father's heart. Fortunately, I had the sense to return to college years later and get my degrees in geography and mathematics. My motive was to scrape the rust off, oil the gears, and get my mind working again. The only regret I have is that my father did not live to see me get my diploma.

I was especially pleased to read about troubled mind's son's interest in mathematics and astronomy. Let me encourage you to assist him in every way possible for this. Studying these two closely related disciplines will do more than increase his knowledge about the universe, he will be trained to think in an entirely new way, and that will benefit not only himself, but all he associates with.

Quendi

29

That Magical Number: 2,520

by Quendi in

i wanted to relate this experience i had on sunday while renewing ties with an old friend.

we argued about the meaning of daniel 4 and nebuchadnezzar's "tree dream".

my friend had insisted this dream told the reader the length of the gentile times.

Quendi

I've been away from the computer for a while and so am returning late to this discussion.

@Vanderhoven7:

This is how I would have answered Mark or any other Witness who wants to equate Revelation with Daniel. John is specifically told that the "time, times, and half a time" equal 42 months and 1,260 days. That is seen by comparing Revelation 11:3, 4 with Revelation 12:6, 14. So far, so good. However, Daniel is given no such equivalent measures. He is simply told that "seven times" will pass over the tree before the banding of iron and copper is removed and the tree allowed to sprout again. We are nowhere told that the "seven times" equals 84 months or 2,520 days.

So this means that any other attempt to calculate how long the "seven times" are is pure speculation, nothing more. Also, it is good to keep in mind that Revelation was written more than six centuries after Daniel's book. So Revelation cannot be used to cast light on the meaning of Daniel's prophecy. Additionally, Daniel was talking about a symbolic tree, whereas Revelation's discussion about its time span must be applied to several entities in its prophecy, not merely one.

For those who would say that both books were inspired by holy spirit, we can concede that point. But they must then answer the question why that same holy spirit saw fit to spell out the length of the "time, times, and half a time" in Revelation, but was conspicuously silent about how long the "seven times" were that it inspired Daniel to announce and Nebuchadnezzar to dream about. Under direct influence of the holy spirit, Daniel is silent, whereas John is not on this matter. So there is no scriptural basis for saying the seven times equaled 2,520 days, let alone connecting them with the "time of the Gentiles" that Jesus mentioned in his Olivet prophecy.

What we have here is exactly what the apostle Peter warned against when he spoke of those who were "untaught and unsteady...twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures". In this case the result has been a twisted, convoluted, teaching that makes no sense at all when examined with common sense, let alone with the rest of the Scriptures.

Quendi