Posts by Larsguy

45

How do the anointed know they are?

by jayhawk1 in

jw
friends

i have a question that no elder has given me a good explanation on.

how do the anointed jehovah's witnesses become that way.

i heard that somehow their spirit is born along with the holy spirit.

Larsguy

I'm one of the "anointed" in the JW sense. The experience is difficult to explain other than what we believe to be holy spirit communicates to us that we are of the anointed. One change that has been mentioned is that we view the Bible differently, it seems to be written specifically for us. Other than that, there is not much more to it.

I will note that some emphasize they have the "heavenly hope". I know I will eventually be in heaven and the excitement of being that close to the creator is certainly there, but before going to heaven, all the anointed have to be "born again" in the flesh during the last days before the millennium and then serve with Jesus Christ for 1000 years as king-priests on the earth. After that Satan is released for a short while, maybe 40 years, then JUDGMENT DAY comes and the anointed again will be involved with judging all the people resurrected during that time (i.e. the second resurrection DOES NOT occur during the millennium).

And then.....after JUDGMENT DAY, when all the "work" is done on the earth, then they are all changed in a twinkling of an eye and go to heaven to be part of Christ's bride class. So the heavenly hope is very nice, but they all have a lot of work to do on the earth before getting there...which, being of the nature they are, they are glad to do.

Also, since you asked, it's possible that ANYONE can become of the anointed now. Read about the vineyard workers how the choosing of the anointed continues right through to those workers in the 11th hour. So if by chance you are THINKING you might be of the anointed, it may very well be that holy spirit is knocking. So just say "yes" and then you'll become one of the anointed. The door is not closed I don't think.

Another reference is when the Messiah arrived, like a father giving a son a banquet, he called all those invited to come but they begged off. So many people in the streets were invited in in their places! This all happens at the last minute. So if you're alert, even if you were not a witness or Christian up to this point, it's possible to get in. Thus it is fulfilled..."many from eastern parts and western parts will go into the kingdom..." whereas the sons of the kingdom will be locked outside. That's because many of the anointed would not be paying attention or would get involved with worshipping the Governing Body instead of focussing on scripture and lose their places. But...in their places others who had no spiritual qualifications before would be inducted into the kingdom.

So that's how it starts, a spiritual curiosity about being anointed and then it goes from there. So if you're curious and you think you might be of the anointed or you feel a sense of the holy spirit, then ACCEPT IT because probably you are being "called"... in which case that is great!!!

LG

135

The Watchtower and the Masons

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

the latest edition of the free in christ ministries journal contains a very interesting article entitled the watchtower and masons.. drawing upon material from the book the watchtower & the masons by fritz springmeier, it gives the following parallels between the things that c t russell believed and those taught by the masons:.

* both believe jehovah is the most important word being the basis of their dogma, and the name of their god.

* both believe god yielded power to a lesser god.

Larsguy

Thanks for this post. Biblically speaking, since the JWs are the "temple" organization, it was prophesied that they would be infiltrated with "weeds", an allegorical reference to the "mysteries" and thus Freemasonry within the witness organization.

Also, since Freemasonry is linked with Babylon the Great, the admonition to "get out of her my people" would indicate not a few JWs would be secret, practicing Freemasons. Of course, Jehovah expects them to be free from this cultic connection in order to get into the kingdom.

LG

8

Christ's Manifestation and Kingdom - 1st Century?

by dreamer in

whilst reading 2nd timothy i noticed that chapter 4:1-8 seem to suggest that the early christian church believed that christ was manifest and in his kingdom:.

i solemnly charge you before god and christ jesus, who is destined to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his kingdom.. .

this implies that he is still to judge, but that he is manifest and that his kiongdom is established.

Larsguy

For all those preterists who want to believe Christ's second coming already occurred. Just want to let you know that totally ignores Biblical chronology that specifically dates the the year of the second coming in the following ways and thus that doctrine is considered to be an incompetent false doctrine:

1. "7 times" prophecy indicates an absence on the throne of a king for 2520 years dated from the fall of Jerusalem which was 529BCE which dates the year of the second coming in 1992. No way in the 1st century.

2. The "1335 days" prophecy which ends 1290 days when the "end of all these things" occurs, meaning the great tribulation of the Jews like no other event before, which was the HOLOCAUST, and the forgiveness of the Jews signaled by their return from exile, specifically their returning to control over Palestine which occurred in 1947. Then the Messiah would arrive 45 years after that which means in 1992, thus you have coordination for that dating.

3. The Messiah returns a mid-week of the last 70th week, paralleling his first coming during the 70th week. If you simply count periods of 70 weeks, 490 years from the end of the first one which ended in 36CE, you arrive at another 70th week during our time in 1996. That means the last 70th week began in 1989 and mid-week Passover by which time the Messiah would arrive and end the Memorial should have occurred prior to Passover of 1993 but not prior to Passover of 1992. That's another way to specifically date the YEAR of the second coming; all three in perfect harmony.

So sorry, folks, all the chatter and scriptural word expansion will not change this specific fulfillment for the year of the second coming for some of us who are astute in chronology.

But to each his own. I can't go along, sorry. My hands are tied.

Nice discussion though.

LG

8

Christ's Manifestation and Kingdom - 1st Century?

by dreamer in

whilst reading 2nd timothy i noticed that chapter 4:1-8 seem to suggest that the early christian church believed that christ was manifest and in his kingdom:.

i solemnly charge you before god and christ jesus, who is destined to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his kingdom.. .

this implies that he is still to judge, but that he is manifest and that his kiongdom is established.

Larsguy

This is an interesting discussion which attempts to find consistency with Christ's prophesied second coming in the context of scriptures allowing for this to occur in the 1st Century.

However, some of us who believe in certain Bible chronology cannot relate to this argument since we believe that the second coming year is specifically dated in scripture related to certain events.

It's pertinent in a JW discussion board thus to point out that JW believe that the Messiah would arrive some 2520 years or "7 times" after the fall of Jerusalem. Even when incorrectly dated in 607BCE or 587BCE (actual fall was in 529BCE), you still get dating clearly during our day. That is, even if you can't make up your mind on the primary dates debated for the fall of Jerusalem, 529, 607 or 587BCE, you still have specicific fulfillment choices for the date of the second coming which would be either 1914, 1934 or 1992; none of these dates are during the first century, sorry.

Therefore, regardless what what flexibility there are in the NT scriptures which allow for the second coming during the 1st century, Biblical chronology specifically dating the year of the second coming precludes it.

Further, other prophecies are less flexible since they are not linked to a debatable dated event such as the fall of Jerusalem. The 1335 days prophecy which would be fulfilled when the Gentiles ended the trampling of Jerusalem and thus when we see the Jews back in charge of Palestine, ending the 1290 days, would date the second coming some 45 years after the Jews return to Palestine. Since that basically occurred in 1947-48, the second coming based upon that reference would fall in 1992-1993. Of course, that is consistent with the fall of Jerusalem in 529BCE, a date originally established via an astronomical text, not the scriptures!!!

So, any 1st century concepts of the second coming are incorrect Biblically per those who understand Bible chronology.

But this was a nice discussion.

LG

15

Need your help with a little research!!!

by cecil in

i have found something interesting in the danish new world translation of the holy scriptures.

and i would like to know, how the other nw-translations render the same verse.. it's the "famous" words in jeremiah 29:10, which in the nwt's rendering usually (at least as far as i know) seem to depict and strengthen the seventy years as a period of captivity, instead of servitude under babylonian supremacy!.

english.

Larsguy

Hi Seedy, I'm the one that's laughing at your statement:

>>First off, we are to accept the one only documantation (the old testiment) that say's it was in 607, and it was not written to influence one religous point of view and their view of history? Yet the other evidence that has been unearthed, says something different. I guess I would believe the "one" over all the others, sure I would, makes sence to me. And yeah the bible was not written with prejudice. Hmmm, Like I said your funny.

The reason I'm laughing is because the 529BCE chronology did not come from the Bible but an astronomical text!!! That's right.

The SK400 is what established 529BCE in my research.

Basically, I discovered and accepted that Cyrus fulfilled the 70 weeks first and thus we had to date the 1st of Cyrus by necessitated had to be dated to 455BCE. But as a witness it had been drummed into my head that the 70-year exile began the same year as the fall of Jerusalem. So I had dated the fall of Jerusalem 70 years earlier in 525BCE and I thought that was the Biblical date.

When I got around to checking out the SK400 astronomical text to see how that worked, since it was mentioned by the Insight book in support of the 539BCE chronology, I found mismatches for those two eclipses. They didn't work, because the interval between the two eclipses was 2:46 and not 4:46 which it is in 523BCE.

So I was satisfied this document could be dismissed as comprehensively supportive of the 539BCE chronology. But I was curious and excited that it just might confirm the fall of Jerusalem in 525BCE if the eclipses could be matched to what I thought was the correct chronology for the rule of Nebuchadnezzar. But I couldn't find a match to year 7 of Nebuchadnezzar in 537BCE which is the year his 7th year would have been in per his 19th year falling in 525BCE. So I just gave up on the eclipse for then but before returning the canon to the library, just as one last effort, I checked all the eclipses from 500 to 600BCE just to see if there was a match and, of course, I found it in 541BCE where the interval was exactly 2:45. This was too specific to be an accident.

But, if Year 7 of Nebuchadnezzar fell in 541BCE then the fall of Jerusalem would have fallen in 529BCE. And that's where 529BCE first came up!!! From this astronomical text.

But I couldn't accept it because it contradicted the Biblical date of 525BCE as the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar...I thought!!! That is, a 4-year discrepancy!

So I continued to study and just about gave up on the astronomical text as being relevant until I finally came across Jeremiah 52:30 which said that the last deportation was not in the 19th year, but the 23rd year!! Of course, the difference between the 19th year and the 23rd year was exactly four years!!!!

Therefore, it appeared that the 70 years really began at the time of the last deportation, 4 years after the fall of Jerusalem, thus Biblically, we should add 74 years to the 1st of Cyrus to get the fall of Jerusalem, in which case, the correct Biblical date would be 529BCE!!!!

So you see, 529BCE ORIGINATED in secular astronomical texts and at one point contradicted a false interpretation of the Bible until that was corrected and then both the Bible and this secular reference matched up.

Furthrmore, since there is apparent DOUBLE-DATING in the text, we know there was a conspiracy and the pretext dating is fabricated!!!

Do you see what I'm saying here?

I'm saying my BEST REFERENCE to 529BCE is an astronomical text with double-dating in it and not the Bible. I can come up with 529BCE without any scriptural reference at all.

So the idea that there is no other evidence other than the OT regarding that dating is simply FALSE now and out-of-date. And FUNNY to me since 529BCE was always an advanced corrected SECULAR reference based upon astronomical text, the most direct and inflexible reference for dating for any period.

So perhaps I can't blame you for drawing that conclusion based upon your idea that there is no evidence besides the OT for this chronology, but that's just inaccurate. There is, now in Babylonian astronomical texts and as well in Jewish records both Josephus and rabbinical timelines.

So just so you know, I don't need the Bible to come up with 529BCE for the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar, I can get that directly from two astronomical texts, the VAT4956 and the SK400!!!

So you need a better argument to get your laughs from, sorry. You're not up-to-date on the latest research.

I am, though, so I'm the one that's laughing.

LG

NOW, HERE'S YOUR REALITY CHECK POINT: If you think you want to bring in your comparative references and debate this fine. But you might want to start with the fact that the most famous eclipse event of all ancient history, the solar eclipse that caused the Lydian-Median peace agreement and which also made Thales famous is now dated in 585BCE. Both Herodotus and Xenophon claim that Cyrus was the grandson of Astyages as a result of a marriage after the eclipse between the Lydians and Medes (i.e. Astyages (Median) married the sister of Croesus (Lydian). The result of this marriage was a daugther who later married a Persian who became father to Cyrus.

That's how the 587BCE chronology unfolds this. However, if you check the year Cyrus was born, it shows him being born in 600BCE, some 15 years before the ecipse of 585BCE!!! That means he would have been 15+ years older than his own mother!!!

Now when you figure out how to work out this mess, which means you're going to have to revise the 587BCE chronology, then you can come and criticize the 529BCE chronology. This discrepancy alone proves there was a conspiracy to add history to the Persian Period and thus it is inaccurate and unreliable.

So, truly, at this point, and I don't mean to be rude, but it's simply not opinion but INCOMPETENT to think the fall of Jerusalem occurred in 587BCE per the secular records. Those who still think so are going on inadequate research, that's all.

Anyway, just so you know that 529BCE was originally as "secular astronomical date" before it became a Biblical date and you have to challenge that date, therefore, astronomically to dismiss it. Which, of course, I know you can't, so.... whatever.

If you think there is "new" unearthed information that defeats this astronomical text data then please present it here and enlighten us.

Thanks

LG

15

Need your help with a little research!!!

by cecil in

i have found something interesting in the danish new world translation of the holy scriptures.

and i would like to know, how the other nw-translations render the same verse.. it's the "famous" words in jeremiah 29:10, which in the nwt's rendering usually (at least as far as i know) seem to depict and strengthen the seventy years as a period of captivity, instead of servitude under babylonian supremacy!.

english.

Larsguy

>....they were estimated to have been from the period just after the fall of babylon. But perhaps that's not a good time to be copying.....

Sorry, this is your imagination and not correct. The tablets actually state when they were copied. One tablet was recorded in the 22nd year of Darius, which would be Darius II. Even the Insight Book I believe addresses this. If you look up this information in that volume regarding these tablets I believe they claim the writing can be consistent with all the way as late as the end of the Persian Period. But for some of them we don't have to guess or estimate when the tablets were copied. Some of there copied near the end of the reign of Darius II.

Now...once you understand the REALITY of the reason for the copying, which would be for the purpose of revision, you know there is no way these would have been revised until after the reason for the conspiracy to correct these documents took place, which would have been several years after the 14th year of Artaxerxes at the very latest.

Anyway, the Bible contradicts these tablets specifically.

1. It gives a 6-year rule to Darius the Mede preceding the 1st of Cyrus, which these tablets ignore.

2. The Bible indicates the 11th year of Zedekiah was the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar and thus an 8-year difference. Thus the 37th year of Jehoiachin when he was realized (same year as Zedekiah's reign) would also be an 8-year difference meaning Nebuchadnezzar rule for 45 years and not 43 years. So we know on that basis these tablets were revised.

But just remember, anything that was "copied" has to be suspected of being a revision automatically.

In addition, the astronomical texts directly supporting this chronology do in deed reference the specific years of the current chronology, but ingeniously uses similarities in the original chronology to double-date these events, thus more than one date is extractable from both the VAT4956 and the SK400 and both align up with the same rule of Nebuchadnezzar which would date his 19th year in 529BCE. This is totally astronomical and totally independent of everything else. But when you add 74 years to get to the 1st of Cyrus, you end up in 455BCE, the date the Bible would have begun the 483 years until the Messiah (69 weeks) which would have occurred in 29CE. So at this point, there really is no choice about what happened and why there are these discrepancies.

Please also note that Josephus very much aligns his chronology with that of the Bible and claims a 70-year desert period beginning with the last deportation as the Bible does, thus 74 years from the fall of Jerusalem until the 1st of Cyrus. So there is secular chronology directly conflicting these tablets, but supporting the Bible. Which one is correct or likely correct is where the debate is.

But the recent evidence NOW makes it all to plain what the original chronology was, so it's just incompetent now not to recognize that 586BCE is a fraudulent, revised date.

LG

15

Need your help with a little research!!!

by cecil in

i have found something interesting in the danish new world translation of the holy scriptures.

and i would like to know, how the other nw-translations render the same verse.. it's the "famous" words in jeremiah 29:10, which in the nwt's rendering usually (at least as far as i know) seem to depict and strengthen the seventy years as a period of captivity, instead of servitude under babylonian supremacy!.

english.

Larsguy

The quote below is from your own reference and confirms these are COPIED DOCUMENTS. Has it occurred to you that the reason they were "copied" was so they could revise this section of history? So how is it they are so reliable?

Anyway, the Bible contradicts the specific chronology of the chronicles so we know they were revised. For instance, Nebuchadnezzar per the Bible really ruled for 45 years and not 43.

Basically, 26 years were reduced from the Neo-Babylonian period and 2 years taken from the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, 16 years from Evil-Merodach, 2 years from Nabonidus and all of the 6-year rule of "Darius the Mede".

So have fun believing what you want about ancient chronology, but the Bible has a different chronology and history and so does Josephus who claims a 70-year desolation period beginning the 23rd year!! (Ant. 11.1.1). So the chronicles are definitely challenged and contradicted by both the Bible and other sources.

It's a mess though! Thanks for posting this.

LG

'Of all the known ancient historical records, the Babylonian Chronicles are considered one of the most reliable and objective. {2} Yet, these tablets are not original Babylonian records, but are instead duplicates which, "presumably were copied during the Persian period from older documents, which were compiled from the official annals of the Babylonian kings." {3} The reason these duplicates were created is unknown, though it is speculated that they were "notes to aid an inquiry on behalf of the Chaldaean of Achaemenid kings for which a knowledge of the history was required." {4}

12

Genesis: Waters and Expanse

by dreamer in

just a little niggle i have:.

in genesis 1:6-10 it talk of how the 'waters' were divided into upper and lower with an expanse in between.

this expanse became known as 'heaven', the waters underneath the heaven became the foundation of earth.

Larsguy

Well here's my 2 cents.

The water above the expanse was condensed and then became FROZEN into solid ice. Other scriptures confirm it was like rock and was hard, thus the earth was surrounded by a clear ice bubble and that explains how there was a hot-house effect on the earth.

But then at the time of the Flood this ice sheet was melted. Remember there was darkness for 7 days before the flood started, thus likely this was the conversion of the ice into dense clouds which after finally becoming melted began to rain down on the earth, but it was so much water that it covered the highest mountains.

But then, "winds" were used to dissipate the waters back into outer space. These winds could have taken the form of "waterspouts" which funneled the majority of the water back into outer space until the water drained off the land. Also the Bible says the floodgates underneath the earth were released, thus likely there was some contraction of underground vaults that forced water onto the surface of the ground as well, thus some of the water returned into this underground water cisterns after the flood as well most likely.

Anyway, after the ice canopy was no more, the hot-house effect ceased and that is when seasons began and the system we have now of evaporation of water off the oceans and rain upon the dry land. Before that, everything was watered from underneath the ground.

That's my best explanation according to the Bible.

LG

19

Sign of the Beast

by seedy3 in

i just finished watching a program on the book of revelation.

it was a very interesting program.

but one thing i came out with was a puzzle.

Larsguy

Dear Francois,
The Bible says that "nobody knows the DAY nor HOUR" but it doesn't say the month or year would not be prophesied. The Bible implies the year of the second coming in both the "1335 days" prophecy and the "7 times" prophecy.

So you're just another jive disbeliever, obviously, who hasn't done their homework and just don't like us believers enjoying our fantasies.

Besides, that statement was made about the second coming and not Armageddon. It is true that that date, Armageddon is left in God's own discretion.

The problem with you Bible critics is you presume to understand the Bible but don't, then misinterpret it, misread it and misquote it and then find your own problems with those errors, as in this case.

Even so, we Bible thumpers don't have to thump so heavily now since many of the prophesies for the last generation, which ended in 1994 have been fulfilled, including the second coming which occurred in 1992!!! So we have less to talk about what MIGHT happen since we are in on what really did happen.

LG

Cheerio

19

Sign of the Beast

by seedy3 in

i just finished watching a program on the book of revelation.

it was a very interesting program.

but one thing i came out with was a puzzle.

Larsguy

After re-reading these passages, it would be consistent with the facts if this worship of the beast was in the form of worship of men and manmade institutions, including organized religion or those claiming to have special knowledge from God, etc.

The beast operates for "42 months" in a specific way but the death stroke is received during World War II when Nazi Germany is defeated. Therefore, these "42 months" or 1260 days relates to the same 1260 days applied to the operation of the fourth beast mentioned in Daniel, only they are 1260 years. This would clearly relate to the Catholic Church, who definitely is a primary believer in the trinity doctrine, and the influence of Catholicism by Jewish mysticism and the pagan practices of the mysteries.

The critical issue which more or less begins the 1260 years is the corruption of the Passover celebration as an annual celebration on Nisan 14th. This practice finally was demolished by the Catholic church around 736 AD, instituting the pagan practice of Easter Sunday, that is, celebrating the resurrection of Christ, allegedly, on the first Sunday following the first full moon after spring instead of celebrating it on Nisan 14th on an annual basis. This would relate to the "removal of the constant" feature for the 2300 evenings and mornings until a new organization, one designated as the "temple" organization would reappear. Significant for this temple being "in its right condition" would be the reestablishment and understanding of the annual Passover held on Nisan 14th in remembrance of their Lord.

So the International Bible Students did indeed have this practice down earlier than the end of those 2300 evenings and mornings way back in 1874.

The 2300 evenings and mornings are calculated by making each evening and morning a single day, thus cut 2300 in half to get 1150. Thus the period is 1150 years out of 1260 years. Subtract 1150 from 1260 and you get 110 years. Thus the "temple" organization would be recognized and operate for a special purpose for the last 110 years of this 1260-year period.

Usually something significant happens to mark these years. Since the series of 70 weeks, or 490 years each added up until our day starting with 36CE end up in 1996, we consider the end of that covenant period to end in 1996. Thus we subtract the 110 years from 1996 to get 1886 and compare that to what was going on with the Bible Students and that was the year the first "Studies in the Scriptures" came out, which volumes became the foundation of a new faith and religion which eventually became Jehovah's Witnesses, the recognized temple organization.

So there is kind of an overlapping mesh between Babylon the Great mysticism and Christendom which has adopted a lot of mysteries practices and become corrupted by it. So it would seem the practice of worship of man, and in particular the accomplishments of educated men, and the accomplishments of European men or the religions they set up is a partof the mark of the beast.

Certainly, within the witness organization, they are worshipping the Governing Body which has made itself a God. So culture worship, or charismatic leader worship, the worship of men and their knowledge instead of the Bible would cover having the mark of the beast for both those in Christendom and within the organization if worshipping the beast and receiving the mark is something inspired by the witness apostate leadership. The sin of JWs is worship of the Governing Body who are men claiming to special.

This is consistent with the "666" being a man's number, that is, worship of mankind and their accomplishments, with a focus on religious leaders and European men who have amazed the world with advancements in technology and knowledge, etc.

Just my 2 cents. Thanks for the comments.

LG