Posts by Larsguy

29

Sign of the Last Days THEN!

by JanH in

jw
friends

the last days in the 14th century

all through recorded history there have been people who have pointed to the calamities, horrors and disasters in the world, and preached that this signified an imminent end of the world.

this isnt even unique to christianity, which started off with strong millennial expectations in the 1st century, and for the most part retains the same expectations almost 2000 years later.

Larsguy

Hi Jan,

Nice article but a bit of a "straw man" for we Biblicalists.

The reason why is because while wars, pestilence and earthquakes might be linked to many generations and circumstances, the CRITICAL ONE-TIME EVENT included in Matthew is totally ignored by you. That event is the "great tribulation" which is supposed to be over before the sign of the son of man appears.

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..."

Remember, this is a ONE-TIME event.

Now, some say this was the horrible destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE. But Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Babylonians centuries earlier. So how did that match an event that had never happened before and that would never happen again?

On the other hand, when you apply this to the HOLOCAUST, it rings true.

The other reason why INFORMED Biblicalists can't take your article seriously is because of CHRONOLOGY! The Chronology of the Bible, as I stated earlier, wouldn't date the second coming until some 2520 years after the fall of Jerusalem whether you date that event in 587BCE or some other time. So we would not have been looking for these signs in any other period than the 20th century in the first place. So the fact that others, ignoring the chronology and just looking at the signs got disappointed is their own fault.

Furthermore, you're interpreting what the "end" is talking about for the Jews as well. The "end" was the end of the Jewish exile, the end of the gentile times when the Jews would come out of exile. That was the end. So when that happened, when you saw the re-budding of the nation of Israel, then you'd know the Messiah was about to arrive.

Thus that's another SIGN you ignore that can only be dated to post 1947.

So your whole article is meanlingless in a critical sense and draws applause by...well...those who haven't bothered including the ENTIRE reference of signs associated with the second coming.

So for the record it would be good to include ALL the signs which would include, specifically a time when two-thirds of the Jews were to be exterminated (Zech. 13:8), and when the Jewish nation would be reestablished (Matt. 24:32). Thus when you include ALL the signs, including these two most pertinent ones, eevn if you didn't have the chronology, you would not have been able to focus on any other time than ours since the Jews did not begin to rebuild their state until after 1947, and I don't know of any time in history when 2/3rds of the Jewish population was exterminated other than during the Holocaust.

So Jan, your argument only works if you ignore chronology and for those who ignored it. They were disappointed. The rest of us who pay attention to Bible chronology wouldn't have expected the Messiah until 1914, 1934 or 1992 anyway, so you can't include us in your casual dismissal of just another group of people expecting the end to occur that never happens.

The "end" did occur though, Jan, in 1947, right on time! The "end of the system of things" of the gentile times, following on the heels of a "great tribulation" like none other, which was the Holocaust.

The wars, earthquakes and pestilences, which probably occur in every generation were just set decorations and general background to the more specific events that you ignored.

So Jan, my friend, you're going to have to do a little better.

The generation that sees the "end" must see the rebirth of the Jewish nation and must also see the extermination of 2/3rds of the Jewish population. That narrows it down considerably, I'm afraid. And that's STILL ignoring chronology which dates the second coming to 1992, 1934 or 1914, your choice, right?

L.G.

11

Fred Franz, still alive and running the show.

by sleepy in

jw
friends

fred franz, still alive and running the show.

how so?no he's not been ressurected and taken to heaven to direct gods affairs on earth.but it is his bible that forms the basis for what witnesses believe and teach.

many people point to franz as the sole author of the new world translation (with help from others) he decided how "gods inspired word" should read to people today.what is truth and what is false in the witness mind is all down to fred franz.

Larsguy

Hi Sleepy.

There are definite problems with the NWT but to suggest that their version of the Bible critically affects their doctrinal beliefs is a bit out of context. JW are known to use several other translations and even published the "Kingdom Interlinear" providing the original Greek for the NT for support of their alternative translation.

Fred Franz' basic doctrines may still be around (they say it was he and not Rutherford who wrote those books during the Rutherford years) but they are not critically dependent upon the NWT which was created to provide a modern-English version of the Bible. Since then there have been many others which they often quote from. The influence pervades, but the NWT is basically an accurate translation in my experience.

L.G.

20

Comprehensive list of WATCHTOWER DATES

by JanH in

jw
friends

abandoned in 1930. .

Larsguy

Hi Nathan, Here's the specific reference to 539CE per the "Bible Students" I found on the web:

REF: http://www.biblestudents.org/presence/time-pro.htm

539 A.D.
Dan. 12:11 gives us the starting date for these periods of time. "...from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up..."
The one special false doctrine, or fundamental error, which led to the full rejection of Papacy by our Lord and made it in his sight the desolating abomination was the Mass. Christ's sacrifice was once for all and forever - a continual, ever efficacious sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. However, each time the Mass is offered in sacrifice, the false doctrine claims a fresh sacrifice of Christ for the particular persons and sins to which the priest offering it mentally applies it. The corner stone of the Reformation was, that the forgiveness of sins was effected by Christ alone, as a consequence of his sacrifice at Calvary, and not by indulgences, confessionals and masses.
Although Papacy existed before 539 A.D., it wasn't recognized as the chief authority in Rome until the fall of the Heruli, the Ostrogoths, and finally the Exarchs in A.D. 539.
Where two events occurring at different times are mentioned, as in this case, we must always reckon from the time that both were true. Although the Mass took the daily sacrifice away earlier, it wasn't until 539 A.D. that the Papacy was "set up" in power in Rome.

P.S. I posted earlier that it was the "Holy Roman Empire" etc. but that was way off, sorry. I had forgotten the specific reference.

L.G.

20

Comprehensive list of WATCHTOWER DATES

by JanH in

jw
friends

abandoned in 1930. .

Larsguy

Lars said, "1874 is based upon the 1335 years since the establishment of the Catholic Church...that's where 1874 comes from based upon Bible chronology. "
1874CE - 1335"year/days" = 539CE - - - I don't understand how anyone can say the Roman Catholic Church began on this date. Can you expand on this a little?
I'm not criticizing, just asking.
Thanks

Hi Nathan. You're right about the 539CE dating. That's precisely the year they use for the beginning of the 1335 years. It is explained specifically in "Harp of God" as to exactly what event this was. I don't have a copy available to me right now, but basically 539 was related to when some political kingdom was overthrown. If I find an on-line "Harp of God" I'll find the reference. But that is precisely right. 539CE is the date they consider began the Holy Roman Empire or something, related to some historical political event occurring in 539CE. Maybe its an obvious event and I can find it independently. I'll research it, but that's their reference. If I can find the exact quote I'll post it. Otherwise, maybe someone else who has a copy can post the reference to 539CE.

L.G.

20

Comprehensive list of WATCHTOWER DATES

by JanH in

jw
friends

abandoned in 1930. .

Larsguy

1915 The end of the world. From ~1912 until start of WWI this year replaced 1914 in Russell's writings, since 2520 years from 606BC ends in 1915 not 1914 as Russell had thought. The fact that there is no zero year was "forgotten" when some events happened in 1914. In 1943 the idea that had been promoted in SiS7, namely to move Jerusalem's destruction from 606 to 607BC, was officially adopted (The fact that Jerusalem according to Bible chronology fell in 587BC does not interfere with Watchtower chronology.)
Year abandoned after start if WWI

Hi Jan, thanks, again for the list. But....just to be comprehensive and for your reference, I hope you don't mind if I take exception to your statment that "The fact that Jerusalem according to Bible chronology fell in 587BCE..."

I'll just note that you can't claim this is a a Biblical chronology "fact" since there is more than one interpretation of Biblical chronology. I won't begin a debate here but just an update of what others astute in Bible chronology would question regarding this:

1. Josephus in Antiquities 11.1.1 claims that 70 years of "servitude" in fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecy was served by the Jews deported at the time of the last deportation in the 23rd year of Nebuchadnezzar. If that's the case, there is an implied 74-75 year interval from the fall of Jerusalem in the 18th or 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar to the 1st of Cyrus. This would directly contradict the 587BCE fall of Jersualem chronology since there is only 50 years from 587BCE to 537BCE, the year the Jews are dated as returning from Babylon.

2. Based upon Josephus' reference and his interpretation of Daniel's prophecy, though, Zechariah 1:7 and 12 offers critical parallel to Josephus' chronology: "...In the second year of Darius, the word of Jehovah occurred to Zechariah...(12) ...."O Jehovah of armies, how long will you yourself not show mercy to Jerusalem and to the cities of Judah, whom you have denounced these seventy years?" Some believe, therefore, that this is a reference to the 2nd year of Darius, the Mede who began to rule immediately after the fall of Babylon but that the Jews are still in exile since not having shown mercy to Jerusalem and its cities would indicate they were still desolate. This would confirm Josephus' reference, though, that the 70 years had not expired even 70 years after the fall of Jerusalem, which of coruse, if the 70 years didn't begin until 4 years after that, this reference in Zechariah confirms. The 70 years would not be over until the 6th year of Darius (the Mede).

So some would say the "Bible's chronology" agrees with Josephus about a literal 70 years beginning in the 23rd year of Nebuchadnezzar that expired before the 1st of Cyrus. So it is not clear "fact of Bible chronology" at all that Jerusalem fell in 587BCE.

So I love your list! It's great to expose all the missed dating and all, but at the same time, are you promoting a potentially false date yourself by claiming that Jerusalem fell in 587BCE? I might have let it past except you said this was a FACT of BIBLICAL CHRONOLOGY. Had you said it was a fact of secular history, I would have ignored it.

Here's the reference in Josephus, just to save you time from looking it up regarding the 70 years that when harmonized with the Bible completely contradicts the 587BCE chronology. If you want to debate this in another thread, I'll be happy to:

Ant. 11.1.1 "In the first year of the reign of Cyrus, which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they has served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that SERVITUDE seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their timple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity; and these things God did afford them."

Jeremiah 52:30 dates the year of the last deportation of these "poor" people in the 23rd year of Nebuchadnezzar: "In the twenty-third year of Nebuchadnezzar, Nebuzaradan the chief of the bodyguard took Jews into exile, seven hundred and forty-five souls."

Thanks, Jan!!

L.G.

20

Comprehensive list of WATCHTOWER DATES

by JanH in

jw
friends

abandoned in 1930. .

Larsguy

You do great work Jan!!!

I found everything I needed online!!!!!!!! Including all 7 volumes of SIS. Per your reference I found this statement I had known about only it's discussed in more detail somewhere, I don't know:

"The 70 jubilees, reckoned as 50 years each, expire October, 1925." That's SiS7 pp. 128 of your reference.

But NEWS to me was that this jubilee cycle, indeed, had been calculated end originally in 1875!!! This is of particular interest to me since this Great Jubilee focus in the early years completely lost it's reference in JW doctrine it would seem after 1925!! Somehow they figured 50 jubilees at 2500 years at some point and 70 jubilees at a rounded of 3500 years but still managed to be 49-50 years apart in their calculations of 1875 and 1925 which dates are 50 years apart.

So this was an eye-opener to me how how complex and manipulative they made their dates work in figuring out all the various chronologies, implied or otherwise.

But of note, I think their observations an instincts were good, but they just had the wrong dating. I think all those applications should work out in some way if the Bible is true; all the sabbaths, 40-year periods cycles, etc.

Of note, therefore, a new date comes into focus and that is 1954. That's 40 years after 1914 when you count a generation as 40 years, which is Biblically appropriate, of course.

I'm not sure how applicable it is, but 1947 is a critical chronology date in the Bible because it is the beginning of the 50th jubilee from 455BCE, more importantly a jubilee we can date from 36CE without any objection. That's the year the Jews returned from exile officially. 1954 is 7 years later. So you have a 7-year period connected with a jubilee in 1947 plus 40 years past 1914. So 1954 might have been a specific prophetic cutoff year for something Biblical. This does not bar a double-fulfillment for a "generation" to be 80 years by 1994 though.

The reason why is because everything in scripture can be fulfilled by 1954, one generation after 1914 including the "great tribulation" which was the Holocaust, the preaching of the good news world wide, meaning by one international organization before the "end"; NH Knorr after WWII did a round-the-world lecture tour in 1946 I believe. The "end" by some is considered the "end of the gentile times" which meant when Israel took over Palestine again which occurred in 1947. And, of course, the "sign of the son of man" began to appear to certain anointed ones after early 1950. So this opens the interpretation of the generation of 40 years as being significant.

Also what I've focussed on, since your article, Jan, is that there might be some significance to the year Jerusalem fell in relation to Jesus' death which might have some modern-day parallels. But the true date for the fall of Jerusalem could be as late as 73CE based upon the conflict in scripture for the death of Herod Agrippa which is 4 years. It has always been suggested, therefore, that 3 years were stolen from the infamous Caligula and added to the reign of Flavius who commissioned Josephus to write the history of the Jews. 73CE is 40 years after 33CE when Jesus died. I'm wondering now what happened significantly in 1954 within the oganization that would parallel with the destruction of Jerusalem in a spiritual sense?

Anyway, as you can see, your article has inspired some new interest in the chronology arena for me and I think you!!! You couldn't tell from the new witness doctrine how intensely focussed and involved they were into chronology, even getting chronology from the pyramids. They still focus on dates as late as 1975 and 1994 but nothing like what they were up to in the early days with every conceivable implied chronology used.

Thanks, again, for having this online for us!!!!

L.G.

20

Comprehensive list of WATCHTOWER DATES

by JanH in

jw
friends

abandoned in 1930. .

Larsguy

Hi Jan!

Sorry, I didn't see the 1875! But I did a little search and, indeed, it was the "Harp of God" that gives this chronology. But apparently by 1927 which is the version I have, revised the dating to 1874. I found the reference I wanted at "larryi" and here's the link and post. So this represents that 1-year date change that AF talks about, i.e. 1914 based upon 606BCE vs 607BCE. The one-year difference would make 1875 1874, though I also am aware that they linked a 40-year chronology from 1874 to 1914 early on. But this is great references!

But here is a reference you do not have from "Harp of God" apparently, at least not the 1927 version that as you can see from the quote deals with a lot of chronology. Maybe you should get ahold of the book and have a field day!!!\

From: http://www.serve.com/larryi/proph11.htm

Harp of God
In the article "Jehovah, My Confidence From Youth On" from the August 1, 1993 "Watchtower" magazine, the WTBTS has once again either lied or misinformed its readers. The article states that in the book "The Harp of God" the Chapter "Our Lord Returns" that there were no dates given for the return.
The writer says,"I read it with great interest, but I was disappointed that no year was given for the return. The book however indicated that it was not far off."
Well, I get out my copy (The Harp of God, 1921) and read on page 231, paragraph 400 in the chapter "Our Lord's Return" as follows:
"There are two important dates here that we must not confuse, but clearly differentiate, namely, the beginning of the "time of the end" and of "the presence of the Lord". "The time of the end" embraces a period from A.D. 1799, as above indicated, to the time of the complete overthrow of Satan's empire and the establishment of the kingdom of the Messiah. The time of the Lord's second presence dates from 1874, as above stated. The latter period is within the first named, of course, and at the latter part of the period known as "the time of the end"."
Oops, ouch, whoaaa, what happened! Do I have the right book? Afraid so! Did I read the right chapter? Sure did! Could I have made a mistake? Not today! Sorry, but another case of (can I say it?) deception or error!
Much of the chapter deals with the "presence" or second coming of the Lord and other WTBTS dates, including 1878, 1914, 1917, 1918, 1919. A very interesting book to say the least and one all JWs, ex-JWs, those who study with JWs, or just interested persons should read. Just another indication of the false prophet organization, the WTBTS.

Thanks so much Jan! I'll read through the list thoroughly to see if there are any other surprises I can find and maybe hunt down some specific references for you. May as well tell it all, including the changes!!!

L.G.

20

Comprehensive list of WATCHTOWER DATES

by JanH in

jw
friends

abandoned in 1930. .

Larsguy

1874 The start of Christ's invisible presence. Russell's most important date. Three Worlds p175, SiS2 p170, Our Lord's Return p27, Proclaimers p133 footnote. Until around 1904, Russell taught that this year marked the start of the Battle of Armageddon, WT 1/15/92 p21-3 [repr p1355]. SiS2, p101.
Abandoned in 1930; [Note 2] WTS itself claims it was abandoned in 1943

Hi Jan! I love your list but how could you miss the references that says that 1874 was the invisible second coming of Christ? This was a major date for focus for the WTS! Furthermore, you missed the actual CHRONOLOGY behind this date, that is, it's reference to the fulfillment of the "1335 days"!! I think that's critical, don't you? I mean what they attach to the date after the fact is another thing, but where they came up with the date in the first place is very important.
If you can get ahold of the 1927 publication (can you believe it? as late as 1927?) called: "The Harp of God" I think (I'll check it out further) it discusses this chronology. But 1874 is based upon the 1335 years since the establishment of the Catholic Church...that's where 1874 comes from based upon Bible chronology.
I'm really not sure, in fact, about the name of the book, it might not be "Harp of God" but I'll recognize it if I look up some of the older publications and I'll try to find the references for you so you can add this and the reference to 1925 being related to 3500 years of 70 jubilees. If you were not aware of these references then I'm glad I was able to bring them to your attention. In fact, I KNOW it is not the "Harp of God" but another one. I don't have a copy available to me. But I'll get the title and you can look it up, or maybe it's posted on the net. I'm sure the list old publications on the net and I'll get the title for you!!
Thanks so much!

20

Comprehensive list of WATCHTOWER DATES

by JanH in

jw
friends

abandoned in 1930. .

Larsguy

1925 The end of the world immediately following the resurrection of "men of old" (Biblical heroes listed in Hebrews chapter 11). Establishment of Kingdom in Palestine. SiS7 p128, Millions p88,97. Very definite statements in WT 6/15 1922; 4/1 1923, elsewhere.
Naturally abandoned after 1925, even though the date itself was held to be somehow fixed in the Scriptures even as late as in 1931 (Vindication I p338).

Hi Jan,
Thanks for posting this information!! But I'm aware that the basis for the 1925 dating is related to the WTS calculation of 70 jubilees. I don't know if you were aware of that or didn't find the reference. Basically they considered a jubilee 50 years and calculated 70 jubilees to complete a 70-jubilee period of 3500 years beginning with their dating of the Jews entry into Palestine in c. 1575 BCE. That's theo riginal chronology behind 1925, though obviously they attacked other events to it. It makes sense they would think the "men of old" would be resurrected at this critical time since it would be a major jubilee event for the Jews in relation to entry into the promised land.
If I recall, this reference must be in one of the "Studies in the Scriptures" volumes which are online somehwere. It would be nice to include that reference in connection with 1925 to show the basis of this specific date. They certainly didn't see any resurrection occur and then come up with this date. They had to apply some chronology to predict it. Your coverage is quite comprehensive and this was a well-known missed date. Your list simply would not be complete without it. If you have access to the volumes then I think you can do a simple search. In the meantime I'll check and see if I can find the reference and then you can add it to your list if you wish. Many persons didn't realize the WTS had a concept of the 70 jubilees chronology theory. E-mail me if you like.
Did you?
Thanks, Jan!

7

????? - "Established Kingdom"...

by Olympiad in

established kingdom

this verbiage has always been of interest to me, established kingdom, however we should remind our watchtower friends that it can not be found in the bible, any bible that i am aware of.

it is the basis however for the new message preached by jehovahs favored few.

Larsguy

Interesting write-up but it thuds out rather quickly. The "good news" about the kingdom basically is about the millennial reign of Christ and the paradise earth that will be established. The WTS publications always show HAPPY-HAPPY people enjoying the new paradise earth, how is this un-good news?

Their message also focus on eternal life and the end of death and sickness. Who else is preaching that GOOD NEWS?

So your article simply shows the ability to create a fantasy and try and make it real. This article thuds out because the fundamental doctrine of JWs about the paradise earth and eternal life, the end of death and sickness is, indeed, the good news of the kingdom.

Furthermore, the Bible prophesied that there would be a "temple" organization in its right condition after 2300 evenings and mornings, that is 1150 years into the last 1260 years ending the final 70 weeks which ended in 1996; that means for the final 110 years of the 1260-year period a special organization would be assigned to preaching this "good news" and have advanced Bible knowledge. 110 years prior to 1996 is 1886 which is when the first "Studies In the Scriptures" came out, later volumes establishing a new sect that later called themselves JWs where each member is involved in the preaching of the "good news" about the paradise earth under God's established kingdom.

So, you see, your article goes no where for the informed.

Of note, though, this organization's leaders were also prophesied to become apostate and the organization would have it's complications (2 Thess 4:2); but still, though seeded with weeds from the very beginning God would use the organization, allowing the "wheat and weeds" to grow up together until the harvest time when a separation would take place. This is a reference to the witness organization and their work, a mixture of profound understanding of scripture along with some presumptive false teachings, primarily based upon their eagerness to apply Bible chronology.

But still, the main point is: How can you say a paradise earth with no death or sickness isn't "good news"? I don't quite get it.

Have a nice day.

L.G.