i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?
it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.
i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.
christ alone-thanks i wonder if the stats for the same for other groups like excatholics or mormons or even exmuslims
I read a chart that said ex-JW's are more likely to become atheist/agnostic and ex-Mormons are more likely to remain spiritual, but steer away from organized religion. I don't know how accurate the chart was, but it's a starting point.
i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?
it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.
i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.
When God is criticized for displaying His wrath in the OT, most of that criticism is centered on the time of Joshua and the Israelites entering the Promised Land. As a nation, Israel had entered into a covenant with God, which bound all of the nation to abide by God's standards of holiness (see Deut 29:10-15). Even in modern warfare do not huge numbers of innocent people suffer death or harm ?
At the heart of this question is the consistency of God's character.
Is God's character is limited to either mercy or judgment but He cannot display both ?
Why not allow the time and space for the complete manifestation of God's grace ?
The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. (Ex 34:6-7)
The LORD said to me, "Go, show your love to your wife again, though she is loved by another and is an adulteress. Love her as the LORD loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods and love the sacred raisin cakes." (Hos 3:1)
I believe God's nature and character includes both mercy and love together with anger and judgment
A time to love and a time to hate. A time for war and a time for peace. ~~~ Eccl 3:8
Here is the example of the innoculation I was referring to. It also shifts the goal posts and distracts from the original points. This isn't about a time but a question of character. For instance, if we are dealing with a serial killer that has not killed in 20 years, do we then just dismiss it? Do we look at this person and say, Oh, well, sure, he killed, dismembered and ate 200 vicitims, but that was a different time and place and he seems loving now? No. We don't do that. The best test of character is not when things are wonderful, but when things are not.
We do it even today. Are you familiar with an abusive spouse/boyfriend telling the woman that no one will ever love them like they do? I actually know about thiss happening several times to real people in my real life. They punch them in the face, kick them, rape them, but no one will EVER love them like they do. And others become complicit when they say things like, 'well he's a good provider, father, friend." You see?
Mercy and Love. Anger and Judgement.
So tell me. When his law says that a rape victim can be purchased from her father and forced to marry the rapist for the rest of her life---would that be mercy and love, or anger and judgement? You support this, Caliber? You really support a god that would have such a disgusting law? I think a little bit of our humanity chinks away as we try to make these things okay, and find ourselves defending them. Because it is not what we would do, and doing so means supressing part of our compassion and empathy. There is no other way. We must simply detach from the humanity of it, refuse to see it through the eyes of the victim, and somehow make such barbaric behavior okay.
Yes, there is the issue of war. But this god had an especially brutal brand of war. All war is brutal, but the US doesn't take female captives from their land and force them to marry American soldiers. I'm not dismissing the US here, I'm simply drawing a contrast. No, war was not enough for this god. He found it necessary to focus on the weakest of his victims and victimize them for the rest of their lives.
i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?
it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.
i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.
new chapter you have good points i will def look into this and get with you. i def understand why you feel as you do! but yeah i will look at everything that was.brought up.thanks for the breakdown
That's great. I'll be looking forward to what you come up with. I remember when I believed, these things used to really bother me. The way I dealt with them is I tried not to dwell on them. But it didn't make them go away. They were always there, and something to make my stomach tighten up when they came up. I would also jump an any explanation, it didn't matter, to make it better. It was as though the explanation innoculated me from the full force of the account. But you know what? When I started to break down the explanations and excuses, I realized they simply distracted me. They gave me a way to say, "Oh, I see". And yet the explanations themselves were lacking.
For instance. I was once told that Lot offering his daughters to a violent crowd was better in God's eyes because the sex would be more 'natural'. That didn't sit well. I was also told that the custom of hospitality meant that you protected your guest to your own injury. Okayeeee. This crowd wanted sex with men. Why didn't Lot offer himself instead of his young daughters? But it eased things, or distracted things for the moment, but then I started doing Point-of-View exercises. I called this meditation. I would recreate the scene from the viewpoint of the different characters, imagine the details, the sounds, the smells. I'm a writer, so I do this a lot anyway, but I started to do it in a more focused way with the bible. WTF? I imagined my father offering me to a violent mob. I imagined my home, friends, land being destroyed. I imagined my god turning my mother into salt for looking back. And then I thought, would my reaction to this really be to get my father drunk and have sex with him? Really? Even taking away the fact that he was my father, this man had just offered me to a crowd to 'do with as they pleased!" I had just lost my mother.
No. This didn't happen, and a truly sick mind made it up. And it takes an enforced sickness on the mind to accept it.
I thought about being a young woman captured by the Israelites. These people had just killed my parents, my friends, my siblings, aunts, uncles. Took my land, and then took me. Then I'm supposed to marry one of these monsters? People told me it was loving and merciful and a protection for these young women, because where would they go? And they were to be treated as wives, not slaves! But again, distraction tactic. They were to trim their nails and hair and were allowed one month to grieve the loss of everything and everyone. Where could they go? Nowhere. So perhaps these marriage arrangements didn't involve violence. Perhaps they came with perks. But there was no choice and I can see it as nothing more than serial rape. The Israelites had taken everything from these women, and we are told today to see it as merciful. I'd rather have died in the battle than live the rest of my life on these terms. That would have been merciful.
There are some Christians that are not literal bible believers. They handle it by simply dismissing it. For those that are literal bible believers, we almost always see subjugation of women, because this god was all about that. That's just the women issues. Dont' get me started on the rest.
https://sites.google.com/site/silence1492/facebook-youtube.
.
Shit, I have youtube videos up, an exJW forum, a Sparlock web address, and I don't get my name on the list. I can't even message them to tell them to add me.
LOL
I wonder if they count it as service time.
i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?
it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.
i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.
new chapter really ? a marker of ejaculation. i never heard that thought before. you look at what does not exist(a marker of male purity)and say god does not exist as well . i look at what does exist and see there is a creator of what exist. the human body is so amazing not simple at all. i remember when my son was born it was the most wonderful thing not just because it was my son birth but the whole way life is and birth to me shows the hand of a creator.
No, you have completely missed my point. Let me try again. This is a much minor point, compared to the major points, but was a thought that I had. Women are property under this god. Their most valuable possession and indeed a measure of their worth is their virginity. Losing that could lead to them being stoned in the town square, because this lovely god that these brutal men created says it must be so.
NOW--to a very minor point. This is how it happens. The major points come together, and the more you think on it, the minor points start to become clear.
Okay, so Christians will often give some malarky story that this god values male chastity as much as he values female chastity. IF that was true, would it not make sense to give little boys some kind of physical marker to prove their virginity? You know, so they could be stoned too? We aren't talking ejaculation, we are talking sexual intercourse. Where the hell did ejaculation come from? Anyway, back on track.
So there are two options. Either this god really didn't concern himself with male virginity, and really liked extra excuses to stone women. OR humans made this god and simply took advantage of the way the female body evolved to enforce their stoning policies.
I choose option two, for several reasons. FIRST, busted, bleeding hymens (the father saved the marriage sheets---you know---proof. *gag* and also to provide a defense should they come to stone the daughter, as they were fond of doing in the day) are a completely inaccurate method of determining virginity because there are other ways this could be damaged, or perhaps it was weak to start with. IF this was a loving god (and not just a barbaric creation of a barbaric culture) then it only seems fair that an equally unreliable method of determining virginity were given to males, so that when they have reasons other than sex that this marker would disappear, they TOO could get stoned to death, while being innocent.
Follow me? This is not the major point of why I reject belief in this god, and in other gods, but it is a minor detail that became clear to me as I thought on it more.
Think about this. Sodom and Gomorrah were SO evil because maybe there were homosexuals about, *gasp* So the town and all the people had to be brutally murdered. Lot's wife was so evil, for looking back at her home, she's salt. What WASN'T evil was Lot getting drunk off his ass and impregnating both his daughters! (well, hell, they WERE his property afterall). LOL How ridiculous is that?
What WASN'T evil is when Lot offered his virgin daughters to a sex craved crowd to do with 'as they pleased' to protect some men in his home. LOL Do whatever you want to my daughters, but please, please, leave these men alone. Ridiculous yet?
Not yet? Well let's take that unnamed prophet of this god that went to get his concubine back. Yeah, she had committed adultery, but you know. Stoning was not good enough for her. Men came for her, and he threw the woman out to them to do with as they pleased. They raped her to death. And he was so broken up over it, he cut her body up in little pieces and tied them to donkeys (or whatever the animal was) and sent her pieces out to the land. LOL Ridiculous yet?
Oh they were a disgusting lot, and Jesus thought all of this was wonderful. FULL AGREEMENT, remember that.
How about this. Judah (I think) has a son who died, so he arranges for a son to young to procreate to marry dead son's wife. (BIL marriage!) Now she is promised, but I guess she wanted that offspring sooner, because she dresses as a prositute and veils her face. Nasty old Judah comes along and has sex with her. When she turns up pregnant, well then she must DIE! LOL Oh, and the child with her (there goes that abortion thingy). He doesn't want to stone her, as I recall, but burn her alive (if I remember correctly). But then she proves he is the father (something of his she was holding in lieu of payment---yeah---he didn't even have the cash to pay! Wanker!) Oh, well then, everything is just fine! Here he was gonna burn her as an adulteress, and it turns out, blush, that HE is ALSO an adulterer and slept with his son's wife. No need to burn anyone now----blow out that torch. Ridiculous yet?
Why does you god hate women so much? Well if we go with my theory, and consider that it was a woman-hating culture that created the god--we only need to look at that area of the world now to see how they treat their women. Enough said. THEY created that god because THEY hate women.
How can you love and want to spend eternity with such a psychopath? Not for me. Happily, there is absolutely no evidence that such a murderous monster exists. But, hey, if you want to dedicate your life to it, just try not to stone anybody.
i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?
it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.
i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.
If this god values virginity so much, then why did he not give men a physical marker of it?
I'll tell you the answer. We evolved, and there was no physical marker for men, but there was for women. So they worked with what they had. It's convenient, since this god they created hated women as much as they did, but if this was a god that TRULY valued virginity in both women and men, then he would have created such a marker in both.
It's a relief to know a god was not behind it. Humans can change, but gods cannot, well people rewrite that god all the time, but humans will adjust to changing times much more quickly if they let go of the dusty old books.
i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?
it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.
i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.
Man made the god of the bible in his own image, wihch is why the god of the bible viewed women as property, just like the men in charge during the time period in which the bible was written. Like the men of that time, their god was also racist and a sadist (e.g., the story of how god tested Abraham's faith by asking him to murder his son, and then stopping him just before he was about to do it, all for a sickening, sadistic cheap thrill).
Agreed. So happy we have grown past the petty bronze-aged god.
i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?
it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.
i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
Deut: 22: 28-29
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
Deut: 22: 23-24
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
See the difference? Property issue.
Deut: 21: 10-14
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
Do you REALLY think that after a woman has witnessed her parents, loved ones, friends that she is going to be in the mood after the merciful MONTH of mourning to have sex with their murderers? It’s nice though that if they get tired of her, they can throw her out. LOVELY GOD! *gag*
Zechariah 14: 1,2
Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city.
i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?
it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.
i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.
Numbers 31:7-18
They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.
i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?
it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.
i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.
Judges 21: 10-24
So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."
Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.
