Posts by NewChapter

97

Pat Condell on Aggressive Atheism

by cantleave in

this is pretty much how i feel.......who disagrees with this?.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yjo4duhmrzk&noredirect=1.

NewChapter

How do you feel about the violations of humans rights that are happening in the name of your and my governments today? What many western nations do these days is counter productive. Are you aware of that? Many people in other countries care more about that than any idea of human rights that you would like to pass on to them. Many don't even take us serious anymore because of that.

I don't like violations of human rights, regardless of who is driving them. This is not a political discussion. I am aware of many things, and yet I STILL have room to care even beyond that. Don't think I'm not critical of my own government. I am. I can also be critical of other systems that think it's fine to shoot a young woman in the face for wanting an education.

97

Pat Condell on Aggressive Atheism

by cantleave in

this is pretty much how i feel.......who disagrees with this?.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yjo4duhmrzk&noredirect=1.

NewChapter

But, what made me say what I did is that no atheist government or large human progressive movement has yet in human history done any significant advance in these things. So, I say no PRACTICAL atheistic contribution to human welfare.

Scandinavian countries seem pretty happy, and they are highly secular. Governments can be bad, regardless of who is running them, The issue is tyrants. The US has a secular government, and we've come a long way in human rights. It's when the religious right gets power that those rights are on the table. I don't believe in atheist governments OR religious governments---but secular. I see that as neutral. Enforced atheism is just as bad as enforced religion. I never called for our government to be atheist, but continue to point out that it is meant to be secular. Allow each person to follow their conscience.

97

Pat Condell on Aggressive Atheism

by cantleave in

this is pretty much how i feel.......who disagrees with this?.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yjo4duhmrzk&noredirect=1.

NewChapter

Looks like there's plenty to do in our own countries before we can even think about fixing other places.

This is not a battle that can be fought only on one front. I am very concerned about gay rights, women's issues, immigration status in my own country. That does not prevent me from also caring what happens beyond my borders. HUMAN rights are human---not national. Or should I think of people outside my country as less human?

Go into an emergency room, and you will see that the sickest get more intense and quick attention. I am not bound by the place of my birth when expressing love and concern. I am capable of caring about all of it.

97

Pat Condell on Aggressive Atheism

by cantleave in

this is pretty much how i feel.......who disagrees with this?.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yjo4duhmrzk&noredirect=1.

NewChapter

atheism has not proven to have advanced human rights or morality in any practical human example.

Just what makes you say this? Most atheists I know fully support human rights, and get angry when backward thinking oppesses some. They work to keep the children out of ignorance in the science class. They work against bigotry, sexism and homophobia. There can be some overlap in their efforts with some religious organizations (organizations that are actually stepping away from bible morality, I might add) but that doesn't mean they didn't play a role. That was quite the sweeping statement, James, and completely wrong. Or perhaps you don't think their contributions count as much because they are not as organized or attached to a religious group.

Support your generalization!

97

Pat Condell on Aggressive Atheism

by cantleave in

this is pretty much how i feel.......who disagrees with this?.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yjo4duhmrzk&noredirect=1.

NewChapter

. I differentiate between myself and principles/issues

See, and I think that Condell is addressing issues in his rant. Perhaps we view that differently.

BTS--not sure who you are referring to--but you added nothing.

James--yes I think when it comes to human rights, allieviating human suffering, and pushing tolerance my ideas ARE superior and they DO need to be contaminated. No apologies. No hiding. They are f**ked up, and they spread misery and death. So there ya go!

Now, if we are going to argue home styles, government styles, education syles---whatever. There are many ideas that need to be considered, and there may not be any correct answer, as they will vary from culture to culture, so it would be superior of me to say they must live as I do. But when it comes to human rights, there is no room for compromise. Those of us that have grown past that desert god, have learned from our experiences, and have worked to better things for ourselves and others, should never shirk away from these accusations. In fact I embrace them and call myself guilty of caring more about human rights than some dusty writings attributed to some tribal god. Shoot me.

452

Faith... and Trust: The Same Things?

by AGuest in

in a discussion with some other dear ones, the question was asked as to what such ones put their faith in.

in response to one comment that"one can't function without faith," another disagreed, stating ones can, that "many do so every day... the ones who have trust" (in things like the sun rising in the east versus the west).

that trust extended to "faith" based "on nature and the natural order of things.

NewChapter

What's 8th grade?

13/14 year olds.

452

Faith... and Trust: The Same Things?

by AGuest in

in a discussion with some other dear ones, the question was asked as to what such ones put their faith in.

in response to one comment that"one can't function without faith," another disagreed, stating ones can, that "many do so every day... the ones who have trust" (in things like the sun rising in the east versus the west).

that trust extended to "faith" based "on nature and the natural order of things.

NewChapter

New Chapter, why did you react so sharply and call Guest's interesting post harsh criticism? I really do not think it was.

Several reasons. First, she's talking about my friends (or ex-friends as the case may be). Painting them as nearly illiterate because they don't agree with her. And yet, there is much room for disagreement, unless it is a JW, then all bets are off. Second, if I were to ever suggest that Aguest is wrong because she has poor reading comprehension skills, not only would she blast me, but a core group of supporters would blast me too. Third, because I have noticed a strong double standard being applied. Fourth, it is not accurate. Your experience is different than my experience, and yet people are still JW's. Those with good reading skills and those without. Those that reach for higher education and those that do not. So it can't be a reading comprehension issue.

And lastly, it is not about intelligence or education, although the more education the more likely a person is to be an atheist, there are still very intelligent and highly educated people that believe.

It has been suggested to atheists here that not respecting beliefs is the same as not respecting the person. We disagree. We think that beliefs CAN be disrespected. However to suggest that those that don't believe as you do can't read properly, is worse than just disrespecting their beliefs. In fact, the same things that make JW's believe as they do are the things that make you and others believe as you do.

So when I hear that people I have known, bright, educated, well-spoken people being painted as ignoramuses, that bothers me. They are misled. I think you are misled too. Does that give me the right to question your intelligence? Attack their beliefs all you wish. Mourn the loss of higher education, if you wish. Bash the blood issue--go ahead. Fair game. But there is no need to get so personal with a people that are just like you---acting on what they have faith in.

Or are JW's fair game?

97

Pat Condell on Aggressive Atheism

by cantleave in

this is pretty much how i feel.......who disagrees with this?.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yjo4duhmrzk&noredirect=1.

NewChapter

Certainly it takes a massive dose of ego to think that you can restructure another society simply because YOUR ideas are so obviously superior.

We weren't talking about restructuring, (nice switch, btw) we were talking about contaminating. And my ideas ARE superior, and anyone else that believes human rights trumps religious rights. Should I not contaminate, say, Iran with the idea that humans rights are more important than their religion?

132

"Believers" vs. Atheists- Why this formulation?

by Band on the Run in

i believe christ is god.

when i left the witnesses i believed i had to be agnostic.

through a scheduling conflict, i studied the new testament in college.

NewChapter

You keep asking me to make that call when the whole point of my argument is that I or any other beleiver CAN'T make that call.

Because you have never answered any of my questions about degrees. So I keep trying to ask it from many different angles to draw an answer out. In doing so, I have to take some guesses as to what you mean, and perhaps get my answer by the process of elimination.

You said that there are degrees of Christians. I don't think you have thought that out, so I'm asking for particulars. Yet you won't respond to the question. I don't know why, because you seemed pretty sure of it. There should be no problem explaining it.

452

Faith... and Trust: The Same Things?

by AGuest in

in a discussion with some other dear ones, the question was asked as to what such ones put their faith in.

in response to one comment that"one can't function without faith," another disagreed, stating ones can, that "many do so every day... the ones who have trust" (in things like the sun rising in the east versus the west).

that trust extended to "faith" based "on nature and the natural order of things.

NewChapter

Wow. That's a pretty harsh criticism of JW's. Not my experience at all. Misled? Yes. But plenty that I knew went to college and some were quite bright and loved to read. Acting like anything above an 8th grade education is held in contempt is not accurate either. There is plenty wrong with the WT, but misrepresenting or blowing out of proportion what they stand for, just because you disrespect their beliefs, is a bit uncalled for.