You don't worry about it, but nobody that does think of these things has offered an answer. The question is addressed to people that believe that humans have souls, and only humans. At what point were humans given souls? Are our ancestors souless? Can a child have a soul while its parents do not?
NewChapter
JoinedPosts by NewChapter
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159
Believers, do you believe in evolution?
by everchangingworld inafter leaving, i still couldn't wrap my head around evolution (after the years of seing "intelligent design" in everything around me).. there's a series of videos that give a good intro to evolution and critical thinking.
they've probably been posted here before, but, for any new members, these are worth watching.. evolution: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdddbyilel0.
critical thinking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6olpl5p0fmg.
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Looks like Angus had a good talking to
by wha happened? innow he's issued an apology.
poor kid, not the 1st one overwhelmed by religion.. http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/entertainment&id=8900627.
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NewChapter
Some people thought he may have been manipulated by that preacher guy he appeared with. Not over religion, but over saying what he said.
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136
Looking After Widows and Orphans... and Spending One's "Riches"
by AGuest into the household of god, israel, and those who go with... may you all have peace!.
from time to time the issue of how to fulfill the "form of worship that is acceptable to god," mentioned by james in his letter, namely, looking after widows and orphans "in their tribulation"... comes up.
given the issue of tithing, the plethora of institutionalized charity choices, and the existence of ones in need, perhaps in our own households and families... but certainly in our towns, countries... and around the world... how does one fulfill this requirement?
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NewChapter
Yes, I understood that, dear NC (again, peace to you!); my point was that not everyone has "learned"... has knowledge... OF those parameters, either good OR bad.
I'm not talking about individuals. I'm talking about collective knowledge. It is not equally distributed. If we look at countries that rule and live by bible standards, they may have even had that knowledge hidden from them. For them, the parameters have been narrowly defined, not giving individuals the full choice. Perhaps they do this by simply homeschooling their children, with their religion at the center of all. Those children will be ignorant to the possiblities of of science. literature, diversity. The world for them will be black and white, and it will not be them choosing the colors.
Or perhaps it is bigger than that---countries that still kill homosexuals or shoot little girls in the face for wanting an education.
They will also make claims that these are laws written and humans need to be submissive to such to live proper and good lives.
God complicates things. Instead of reinforcing the good that people can do, telling them many things are possible, and the choice is theirs, some have chosen to overrun their personal conscience with an artifical absolute code. This is the way God says is best. Instead of convincing humans that they are fundamentally damaged, fallen, in need of salvation and reconcilement, teach them that they have choices to make and a full range of behaviors to choose from. Because that is the actual truth. They are not born 'bad' or 'sinners' they are simply born. And they will make a difference, but what type of difference they make is up to them. Why twist their emotions a views of other humans by imposing some bronze-aged, unenlightened culture on them? It causes problems.
We have laws, because most of us believe that other humans should be kept safe from things, and not all humans will choose to do what is best by others. This is not a moral code that overrides their own conscience, but a social construction to keep things organized. Humans tend to be charitible. It's in our genes. But humans are many other things. If you insist that things like charity and love are an expression of god's laws written on their hearts, then you cannot sidestep and say that murder, and injustice is not ALSO written on their hearts by this god. You can't have it both ways. If there is some spiritual law written, then the parameters were written and this god must take responosiblity for all of it.
Or, the truth. Humans just are, and they make their choices. When they do good, they are not expressing any particular god's law, but they are simply doing good and should get the credit for it. If they do bad, they should be held responsible and take the consequences. But this god doesn't get credit while avoiding responsibility. Humans don't. And human is what it all is. There is no god with invisible laws. There are humans.
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Looking After Widows and Orphans... and Spending One's "Riches"
by AGuest into the household of god, israel, and those who go with... may you all have peace!.
from time to time the issue of how to fulfill the "form of worship that is acceptable to god," mentioned by james in his letter, namely, looking after widows and orphans "in their tribulation"... comes up.
given the issue of tithing, the plethora of institutionalized charity choices, and the existence of ones in need, perhaps in our own households and families... but certainly in our towns, countries... and around the world... how does one fulfill this requirement?
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NewChapter
Worship of gods existed long, long before that.
You missed my point. I said that when we became agricutural, when we organized into city/states, when we stratified our society, amazingly our gods did the same. You won't find those kinds of gods among people living outside that culture. That is because we create the gods that we relate to and that support our society. Gods are constructs. Understand now?
In this sense, I find Paganism at least more honest. Gods that relate to a specific culture and the cycles of their own seasons. The tragedy of this middle eastern, bronze-aged god, and the writings, is they grew to large. They sought to suppress cultures that could not relate to this brutal, foreign culture to play by rules that were never developed for very different people. It was more local than that.
Even so, considering the vast differences in these gods, and how well they fit the culture that originaly created them, it is very clear that these gods were created and there is no such thing as a 'false' god just as there is no such thing as a 'true' god. And yet, people still demonstrate the full spectrum of human behavior both good and bad. There is no law written on their hearts. Only choices, rewards, consequences and potential.
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Looking After Widows and Orphans... and Spending One's "Riches"
by AGuest into the household of god, israel, and those who go with... may you all have peace!.
from time to time the issue of how to fulfill the "form of worship that is acceptable to god," mentioned by james in his letter, namely, looking after widows and orphans "in their tribulation"... comes up.
given the issue of tithing, the plethora of institutionalized charity choices, and the existence of ones in need, perhaps in our own households and families... but certainly in our towns, countries... and around the world... how does one fulfill this requirement?
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NewChapter
"Taught" denotes someone learning. What's learned... is a "lesson". What I stated is that we apparently haven't learned whatever lesson it was that YOU believe history has "taught" us. What's the confusion here?
Because the way you are using the term 'lesson' is more than simply taking in knowledge, but more like lesson with a moral. The moral of the story. Have you learned your lesson, young man? That's not what I'm talking about. I am not saying that history has taught us some lesson in morals and if we don't change our behavior, we haven't taken in the knowledge. I am saying that history has more clearly, if not completely defined the parameters of our potential, both good and bad.
We have reacted differently to this knowledge. Some of us look at it, and recognize the consequences of our actions, and decide that we intend to do the least harm and the most good we can within those parameters. Others take in that knowledge, and perhaps even define good and bad differently, and don't make the same commitment to improving life for everyone. Or, they may cling to tradition rather than rely on their own thinking and processing of the knowledge that is available to them. Or some my hold to ancient writings, that were produced at a time of limited enlightenment.
This is because we are human, and no law is necessarily written on our hearts. Instead, we have potential within a structure, and how we act will depend on how we process this. It is not black and white. It is not God vs Satan, or Christ vs hate. That is just a co-opting of the parameters.
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159
Believers, do you believe in evolution?
by everchangingworld inafter leaving, i still couldn't wrap my head around evolution (after the years of seing "intelligent design" in everything around me).. there's a series of videos that give a good intro to evolution and critical thinking.
they've probably been posted here before, but, for any new members, these are worth watching.. evolution: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdddbyilel0.
critical thinking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6olpl5p0fmg.
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NewChapter
Not me. I'm 100% meat.
nuh uh!
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159
Believers, do you believe in evolution?
by everchangingworld inafter leaving, i still couldn't wrap my head around evolution (after the years of seing "intelligent design" in everything around me).. there's a series of videos that give a good intro to evolution and critical thinking.
they've probably been posted here before, but, for any new members, these are worth watching.. evolution: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdddbyilel0.
critical thinking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6olpl5p0fmg.
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NewChapter
Where it all fits together on the timeline in the human evolution... I do not know. That would be one of the missing things that is yet to be discovered or understood. But there is no conflict in reality. The only conflict is in our limited or lacking understanding of one (evolution) or the other (God, spirit, etc)... or both.
And yet you seem so sure. As to the statement that there are many possible theories---there are no theories. A theory is a rigorously tested hypothesis, and this falls outside that context.
For those that believe that humans have souls, AND that we evolved, at what point in our evolution do you think we acquired a soul, and did we evolve from souless ancestors? Was there a moment when a child had a soul and its parents did not? Did we first receive souls as H. sapien, or did earlier ancestors have souls? Give me the details of your understanding---if you believe humans have a soul
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159
Believers, do you believe in evolution?
by everchangingworld inafter leaving, i still couldn't wrap my head around evolution (after the years of seing "intelligent design" in everything around me).. there's a series of videos that give a good intro to evolution and critical thinking.
they've probably been posted here before, but, for any new members, these are worth watching.. evolution: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdddbyilel0.
critical thinking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6olpl5p0fmg.
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NewChapter
For those that believe in evolution and a god, may I ask, at what point in human evolution did humans acquire a soul? Did Lucy (australopithecus) have one? This is our ancestor---did she have a soul? Were our ancestors souless? Lucy really was just an ape. Did humans evolve from souless creatures?
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Looking After Widows and Orphans... and Spending One's "Riches"
by AGuest into the household of god, israel, and those who go with... may you all have peace!.
from time to time the issue of how to fulfill the "form of worship that is acceptable to god," mentioned by james in his letter, namely, looking after widows and orphans "in their tribulation"... comes up.
given the issue of tithing, the plethora of institutionalized charity choices, and the existence of ones in need, perhaps in our own households and families... but certainly in our towns, countries... and around the world... how does one fulfill this requirement?
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NewChapter
history has taught us what we are at our best and what we are at our worst.
HAS it? If that's the case, why are there still conflicts in the Middle East? I'm thinking that not everyone has learned history's "lessons." And so, then, what for these? Law. For some, civil law. For some, religious law. And for some of us... spiritual law, which is love.
Again, I said that history has taught us what we are at our best AND what we are at our worst. I didn't say anything about 'lessons'. I'm talking about knowledge. From a purely human standpoint, we have learned about ourselves, and as time passes, we learn more. Love has nothing to do with spiritual laws---that is just your way of kidnapping the concept and making it fit your agenda.
I have a cousin that is a zookeeper. They used to be more controlling of animals, when they wanted them on the scales, or needed to care for them. But they've changed their ways. Instead, they now learn the behavior of the animals and work with it. So instead of picking one up, possibly tranquilizing it, and putting it on the scale, they will learn what they can do to cause the animal to naturally stand on the scale. Now do they then reason, "Oh, we taught that animal to get on the scale?" NO. because they didn't. The animal did what came natural to them, and they worked with it. In essence, the animal trained THEM, and at least they know that.
That's very similar to what you are trying to do. You want to say that what comes natural to humans, love or whatever, was somehow taught to them from some law given by a non-existent entity. But you are just taking advantage of what is already human nature and giving the credit for that to some invented character.
See---people love---that's proof that god exists and put that love there. No it isn't. That is proof that humans love, and people have opportunistically taken that and said it was their gods or god that put it there. No. It was there. Along with other good things, and many bad things too.
Long before there was tithing, there was charity and community effort. Humans lived in foraging bands, and they took care of each other. Nobody had to tell them to do that. It was beneficial to the entire band. It wasn't until city/states came in with their agricultural gods that the balance was knocked out. Where some could attain wealth and privilige at the expense of their fellow humans. Social stratification developed---class systems. Amazingly, the gods followed suit!
Love has nothing to do with gods other than humans created all gods and gave them human attributes. Humans, through evolution, are the authors of love. Not gods. Humans are also the authors of gods.
As to the violence and so forth. Well just check out our primate cousins. Gratefully we have higher cognitive abilities and can fight against these tendencies. Gods don't make that possible, but humans have that potential. Some live up to it better than others. Those that cling to biblical teachings don't live up to it, because the god portrayed there does not live up to it. But it's getting better. That doesn't mean it's perfect, because perfection is a false concept when it comes to human behavior. As is the teaching that we fell from some perfect state into this wretchedness. Untrue. We are what we are, good and bad, and it has nothing to do with gods.
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OMG! Have you seen this crazy movie? Red State
by serenitynow! ini'm watching this movie, it's a horror movie.
it seems to be based on the crazy westboro church, except they are doing more than just protesting funerals.
it's scary!
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NewChapter
I saw this movie a couple of months ago. I didn't really see it as a Westboro story, but more of a story if the south had won the Civil War and the conservative Christian right got all the power. It really made me think.