Posts by NewChapter

79

Do you think Witnesses would drink the "Cool-Aid" if told to do so...like Jonestown?

by Witness 007 in

jonestown 1970's, jim jones brainwashed his 900 member cult into committing mass suicide by drinking cyanide cool-aid.

only three escaped.

{the smart ones} one man hid under a building....another escaped into the jungle while armed guards dragged another member to get injected by force.

NewChapter

But how new is the new light? How outside their understanding. To address Mad Sweeney's point---yes they can easily be pressured into auxilary pioneering with a few months prep. But is it really just a few months? they are constantly pressured to do more in service, so it's not that big a jump to commit to some extra hours. THIS would be asking them to change all of their values---all of their understanding---of both themselves and their god. This isn't a small shift----this isn't a redefinition of generation. They are prepared for that kind of thing.

To call on them for suicide/murder would COMPLETELY change the game. It would not be something that could be brushed off as new light. Look, at my most zealous, I would never have considered such a thing---nor would anyone I knew. I knew a sister that had a car accident, and she cried for days on pins and needles until she learned the other driver would be okay. Nothing could console her. The idea of incurring bloodguilt was so abhorrent to her, she could barely think.

Metaphorical death--shunning---is so far removed from real death. Yes, they believe the wicked will die---but they have always believed that would come from their god, NOT them. Are there unstable ones that would drink without question---of course. That is true of any group. Would there be mass suicide? Absolutely not.

We were all JW's once. We all love JW's. I think we do know that this is outside their capability. There could be a shift---sure. But there is no indication that is happening.

Culling? Not a new concept. Take 1975. When I was new, I was told that 1975 worked as a type of culling. What did it mean? It meant that those that were in for the "wrong" reasons walked. It was a cleansing---not murder---not suicide.

Look we are dealing with a brutal, hateful, murderous god here. The language reflects that---but the people aren't on the edge of murder/suicide. Not even close.

NC

79

Do you think Witnesses would drink the "Cool-Aid" if told to do so...like Jonestown?

by Witness 007 in

jonestown 1970's, jim jones brainwashed his 900 member cult into committing mass suicide by drinking cyanide cool-aid.

only three escaped.

{the smart ones} one man hid under a building....another escaped into the jungle while armed guards dragged another member to get injected by force.

NewChapter

YES Ding---it is well understood that JW's will refuse blood. They have been groomed to do so. It takes constant indoctrination for that kind of devotion. It has been going on for years and generations. Suicide notions HAVE NOT. They are prepared to take a stand against blood. They are not being prepared to commit suicide.

NC

79

Do you think Witnesses would drink the "Cool-Aid" if told to do so...like Jonestown?

by Witness 007 in

jonestown 1970's, jim jones brainwashed his 900 member cult into committing mass suicide by drinking cyanide cool-aid.

only three escaped.

{the smart ones} one man hid under a building....another escaped into the jungle while armed guards dragged another member to get injected by force.

NewChapter

Well then let me end this conversation this way. LURKERS---I and others do not equate the WT with Jim Jones. I don't believe that you would mindlessly drink poison because it was commanded. I believe that you would see this as highly contradictory to what you have learned about the sanctity of life. Nowhere in any of the literature is it suggested that one day you may have to commit suicide for your faith. This idea would be foreign and sinful to you---and I do believe you would blink. I don't believe you are so clueless or mindless to follow such a mandate. I believe that people that have found themselves in such a position have been worn beyond their breaking point---mentally, physically and spiritually. I believe that degree matters---and WT is not even close to the control exercised in Waco and Jonestown.

NC

79

Do you think Witnesses would drink the "Cool-Aid" if told to do so...like Jonestown?

by Witness 007 in

jonestown 1970's, jim jones brainwashed his 900 member cult into committing mass suicide by drinking cyanide cool-aid.

only three escaped.

{the smart ones} one man hid under a building....another escaped into the jungle while armed guards dragged another member to get injected by force.

NewChapter

MM, do you honestly believe if suddenly, without any preparation, the WT were to say---kill yourself---that they would follow without question? Are you devaluing the horror that humans lived through at Waco and Jonestown? Why do these cases always include extreme isolation and physical and mental abuse---lack of sleep---poor nutrition?

We will leave this conversation thinking what we will----but SUICIDE is NOT part of JW culture---that is individuals may be pushed by despair to commit suicide, but it is not something they are actively taught and pressured into doing. I don't think you understand the extreme circumstances these people were living under.

Without some preparation---some early indoctrination---increasing pressure--they are not going to take a sudden command to kill themselves as the kind of obedience being asked for. Now if we see some grooming here---this could change. When they read above quote, they are not thinking, "Oh yeah, I may be called on to drink poison, and I will do it". No, they are thinking the usual---meetings, service, neutrality etc. This isn't part of their doctrine.

NC

79

Do you think Witnesses would drink the "Cool-Aid" if told to do so...like Jonestown?

by Witness 007 in

jonestown 1970's, jim jones brainwashed his 900 member cult into committing mass suicide by drinking cyanide cool-aid.

only three escaped.

{the smart ones} one man hid under a building....another escaped into the jungle while armed guards dragged another member to get injected by force.

NewChapter

I am saying that they were willing to do more than RISK dying. They knew with certainty they WOULD die---or---they thought it was a trial run and were tricked into suicide. Those that weren't willing were disposed of easily enough.

Had you taken this same group of people and suddenly asked them to drink something that would kill them--they wouldn't do it. They had been conditioned to believe that this may be required of them. I watched a video where a man at Jonestown said he was willing to die, but that he felt differently about his child. He was shouted down by a woman who insisted he must be willing to have his child die for the cause. Again--isolated--groomed---underfed. The dynamic is extremely different.

JW's don't generally walk around thinking that one day they will have to take their lives for their cause. Hand them a poisonous drink---what will be their response? Suicide is wrong! i can't do this to my god. I read a story about a woman who suffered with a painful bladder condition---I know this condition is real and excruciating because I know someone with it. She confessed that many times she wanted to die, but the thing that stopped her was her love for her god. These people believe that life is sacred and it is not up to them to take it. There is an unwillingness to take a life---their own or another's---but there is a willingness to die for their beliefs if that is the only option.

Are you saying this mindset is NOT different? Our greatest weapon against the WT is the truth. Any JW would balk at the idea that they would drink poison---and rightfully so. They wouldn't. When we start accusing them of things they wouldn't do, we water down our case. They will simply dismiss us as though we don't understand--they would be right.

If their teachings ever change---ever become more sinister---this could change too. But I don't see that happening. And it really would take a great deal more isolation to achieve this end.

Remember Waco? Those people were willing to die. A teenager that left the compound even explained that it was a constant teaching and they were taught the "proper" way to shoot themselves. In the mouth toward the brain---because a shot to the temple may not do the trick. Can you see the difference? This was taught, and reinforced, and coupled with total control.

Yes, the WT is a high control religion---it seeks to have it's member self indoctrinate. But they still go out there, they still have family, schoolmates, workmates to keep them in the here. They are physically free to walk away--physically free to turn on their computers. They have time alone. They are not kept awake night after night being indoctrinated. This was common both in Waco and Jonestown. EXTREME lack of sleep, lack of nutrition, lack of contact.

NC

79

Do you think Witnesses would drink the "Cool-Aid" if told to do so...like Jonestown?

by Witness 007 in

jonestown 1970's, jim jones brainwashed his 900 member cult into committing mass suicide by drinking cyanide cool-aid.

only three escaped.

{the smart ones} one man hid under a building....another escaped into the jungle while armed guards dragged another member to get injected by force.

NewChapter

And on that subject---I was talking to a doctor who told me that they cared for a young JW that would take the stand in front of their parent---but then allow tranfusions secretly. The staff did quite the waltz to keep it from mommy---so I believe that less and less are willing to take that risk. But they do keep up appearances.

NC

79

Do you think Witnesses would drink the "Cool-Aid" if told to do so...like Jonestown?

by Witness 007 in

jonestown 1970's, jim jones brainwashed his 900 member cult into committing mass suicide by drinking cyanide cool-aid.

only three escaped.

{the smart ones} one man hid under a building....another escaped into the jungle while armed guards dragged another member to get injected by force.

NewChapter

yes, the blood issue does have certain elements---however the dynamic is still very different. Refusing medical care and actively committing suicide/murder draw on different behaviors. What is the INTENT? Active suicide=INTENDING to die. Refusing medical treatment=Willing to take the chance---but preferring not to die.

I think these are very different processes. A willingness to die is much different that a desire to die. Soldiers are WILLING to die, but they certainly don't want to. Yet they feel the principals they are upholding are worth the risk. Firefighters that run into burning buildings are WILLING to die--to risk it---but they don't want to. Again, their principals overcome their fear of death. A Witness that refuses treatment is indeed willing to die, but I don't think they want to. They accept alternatives---and try to find a way within their principals to live. Agree or disagree with those principals---people other than JW's have chosen to risk death for a principal.

This is just very different from what happened in Jonestown. Again---they were even willing to murder others--and did.

NC

79

Do you think Witnesses would drink the "Cool-Aid" if told to do so...like Jonestown?

by Witness 007 in

jonestown 1970's, jim jones brainwashed his 900 member cult into committing mass suicide by drinking cyanide cool-aid.

only three escaped.

{the smart ones} one man hid under a building....another escaped into the jungle while armed guards dragged another member to get injected by force.

NewChapter

No, I don't. What happened in Jonestown is not happening in the KH. For instance, from the beginning, Jones inserted the idea that they may all have to die for their ideology. He practiced a long series of White Nights, where everyone would be called in to drink the koolaid. They practiced over and over. They were isolated, and had no other options. They were also malnourished, so their brains could not properly process information. While isolated, with no help, if anyone objected to Jone's teachings---they would be taken away and reeducated in a medical facility. Also they were constantly tested. Decoys would express doubts, and if the person they talked to, didn't turn them in, then THEY were in trouble.

Yes, JW's are expected to tell on each other---but I don't believe they are habitually set up and the "re-educated". The paranoia in Jonestown was very unlike the paranoia at the KH.

Now I know this post could be followed up with insistence on the similarities--and you'd have a point. However degree does matter---the mix is not here for this to happen on wide scale at a KH. First off---suicide is wrong---period. That is the teaching. Jones did not have such a teaching and trained his followers for an extended time to commit suicide. The dynamic would have to seriously change at the KH for quite a while to lead to something like this.

Again---i recognize certain elements---but I don't want to cheapen what happened in Jonestown, the same as i don't want to cheapen what is happening with the WT. Those people could not walk away. Their environment was fully controlled. They had no outside contact. They truly were at the mercy of Jones. And they expected to die at any moment and were ever prepared to committ suicide. And keep in mind---this was not just mass suicide---it was murder/suicide. Plenty objected in the end--so they were also willing to murder for their beliefs. I don't know any JW that is willing to go that far.

NC

220

Are you sick of conspiracy nuts?.....9/11

by Witness 007 in

yes apparently the staff at the twin towers on 9/11 didn't notice the explosives strapped to all the beams on each floor......of course a plane fully loaded with jet fuel going so fast it nearly flew through the building {blew out the otherside} would not be enough to cause a collapse.

the building were glowing red!

people jumped due to the heat and smoke.

NewChapter

In my opinion, if you dont think there was a conspiracy, your not a thinker. and not capable of critical thinking

Is that so? Not even capable of critical thinking? If I don't see it your way, and through much thought and critical thinking I conclude something different, I am not even a thinker? If that makes you feel better, go ahead and think it.

How about if I prove to you my ability to critically think? Would I then be a critical thinker worthy of an opinion? Do you think that any of us made it this far---to THIS site---without the ability to critically think? I see many holes in your theory--oops--I should just accept them and not critically think. I wonder why the video of the collapse of WTC 7 is shortened on conspiracy sites. Why it doesn't start until a few seconds after the left side starts to collapse before the rest, thereby shooting a hole in the uniform demolition theory. Oh, but I can't critically think. All I need is your highly edited video and your explanation of what it means.

Why DO conspiracy theorists find the need to edit out those first few seconds? WHY? hmmmm WHY? I can't critically think---so I leave it to you.

NC

37

CERN claims faster-than-light particle measured

by botchtowersociety in

huh?.

cern claims faster-than-light particle measuredgeneva (ap) -- a fundamental pillar of physics - that nothing can go faster than the speed of light - appears to be smashed by an oddball subatomic particle that has apparently made a giant end run around albert einstein's theories.. scientists at the world's largest physics lab said thursday they have clocked neutrinos traveling faster than light.

that's something that according to einstein's 1905 special theory of relativity - the famous e (equals) mc2 equation - just doesn't happen.. "the feeling that most people have is this can't be right, this can't be real," said james gillies, a spokesman for the european organization for nuclear research, or cern, outside the swiss city of geneva.. gillies told the associated press that the readings have so astounded researchers that they are asking others to independently verify the measurements before claiming an actual discovery.. "they are inviting the broader physics community to look at what they've done and really scrutinize it in great detail, and ideally for someone elsewhere in the world to repeat the measurements," he said thursday.. scientists at the competing fermilab in chicago have promised to start such work immediately.. "it's a shock," said fermilab head theoretician stephen parke, who was not part of the research in geneva.

NewChapter

I just heard about this on NPR. I'm going to have to find quiet time to read and understand it---but didn't Einstein theorize that nothing could move faster than light? I am very weak when it come to physics, but for a time, I tried to devote myself to understanding e=mc 2.

I will have to go back to that. I've already lost a lot of it. For those interested in an explantation that the physics challenged may be able to grasp, a great book is Why Does E=mc2?: (And Why Should We Care?)

For a while, I felt like a genius--but as you can see---retained very little. Time to read it again.