Posts by bafh

62

End shunning or lose tax free status

by kneehighmiah in

jw
friends

which would the watchtower choose if it came down to this in the united states or europe?

losing tax free status would mean losing millions of dollars.

ending shunning means people would leave by the boatloads.

bafh

I've been wondering for a long time why the organization is not more forthright. And now I see this quote below. Explains everything. And explains why they probably never will be. They do not consider the congregation entitled to a comprehensive answer. Another reason why I will likely never return.

Theocratic Warfare Strategy = ***w07 2/1 p.6***

Every lie is an untruth, but not every untruth is a lie. Why not? A dictionary defines a lie as “an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker to be untrue with intent to deceive.” Yes, lying includes the intention to deceive someone. Hence, to speak an untruth unwittingly—such as giving someone incorrect facts or figures by mistake—is not the same as to tell a lie.

Moreover, we need to consider whether the person asking for information is entitled to a comprehensive answer.For instance, suppose Manfred had been asked the same questions by an executive of another company. Would Manfred have been obliged to tell him everything? Not really. Since that executive had no right to such information, Manfred would have had no obligation to provide it. Of course, even in this case, it would have been wrong for him to tell a lie.

87

July 2014 WT cracks down on apostate debates and 'dance parties'

by EndofMysteries in

in the july 2014 study wt article titled "jehovah's people "renouce unrighteousness".

par 9 and 10 .

9. how did foolish and ignorant debates affect the early christian congregation?.

bafh

Remember that study article for December 2013? Warnings against those who speculate.

Hasn't WT been speculating for over 100 years? I agree, we need to crack down on that and reject unscriptural teachings - especially from the WT. Jesus did say no one would know the day or the hour except the Father. So, my question is: why have we spent the last century doing nothing but trying to guess a date? Seems so contradictory. How about we focus on developing our character, helping those who need it, and living productive lives??

26

Why?

by SuperBoy in

why does the wtbs do what it does?

if it's just to make money, they are easier ways.

online bingo websites for example.. what is the motivation to have millions of followers "voluntarily" giving of their time?

bafh

I think the Russel and Rutherford, and many of the early leaders of the Bible Students were authentically seeking answers. When I have read the material, it rings true to me - as in this was what they really believed and there was more explaination of how they arrived at their thinking. I don't think they were snake oil salesmen, I think they were seekers, like the rest of the early religious movements of the day.

As the organization has grown, however, the predictions have failed, and the insiders (GB, Zoner Overseers, Given Ones,) have not displayed the humility to admit where they were wrong or to be transparent about how they arrive at their beliefs. They have had to keep up appearances until they figure it out. They have millions of people hungry for leadership, and someone to tell them they have a right to feel rightous (we are God's Chosen People) and to give them something to blame (Satan, this System of Things, Eve or Sin) for their lives if they don't like how their life is going.

There are a lot of true believers, but how can the leadership tell them, "yeah, sorry - we are wrong. we're not the chosen ones"? They can't. Can you imagine what shape that would leave people in if they admitted that they were just making shit up? The death toll would be high, and I suspect there would be some litigation and jail time. Plus, they have a huge money maker. I can only imagine that once you get in the groove, there is really no easy way to stop it.

All of this makes it even more amazing that people leave when you realize how much they are giving up.

26

Why?

by SuperBoy in

why does the wtbs do what it does?

if it's just to make money, they are easier ways.

online bingo websites for example.. what is the motivation to have millions of followers "voluntarily" giving of their time?

bafh

I think it comes down to Maslow. Especially for people born in like me, you tie some of the higher level psychological needs people have into belonging to the organization, and it is very hard to leave it even if you want to. For others who are recruited, the organization meets their need for belonging, and especially for men who are discouraged from gaining status through outside acheivements like work, attaining status inside the organization by becoming an elder, CO, DO, etc is very alluring.

Once they get to Bethel, they have the adoration of people who don't even know them, and are given money, presents, influence, etc. If someone is a born-in, and dedicated their life to Bethel, even if they thought it was a scam, I could see them staying for the free ride and because making it on their own on the outside is difficult, and once they reach a certain age maybe impossible.

This is how I explain to myself some of the elders who are so awful. You have men, who are discouraged from gaining status in the usual way (work, education, acheivement) and you give them a title and a little power. This is their only way to meet that natural hunger for esteem. Couple that with their lack of education and training in pastoral care of people and you have....JW Elders who bully or sometimes abuse their flock just because they can and have been divinely appointed to do so.

Really it meets even the highest level of need, self actualization because that is where morality lives. And JWs are nothing if not moral. So, this is why disfellowshipping has the effect that it does, and also why leaving is so hard, and why staying has such pull. When we talk to "true believers" this is what we are talking to - their need for belonging, esteem, and self-actualization - not just their belief system. This is why it is so hard to get people out...and to leave ourselves if we try.

32

Watchtower Inc. 100 Henry Street Links to MANY other Suspect Companies

by objectivetruth in

there have been a few posts in the past about watchtower inc. at 100 henry street, but i do not see the answer i'm hoping for.. can anyone confirm or provide details linking watchtower inc. to the wbts?

they are across the street, and one can easily assume that they are connected, but i don't see any definite links.. the closest i have come is this link: http://www.insideview.com/directory/watchtower-inc which lists watchtower.org as the website.

this could have been posted like this in error however.. according to 2014 sec filings watchtower inc. has a ceo named sholom drizin ( a man worth possibly 2 billion.).

bafh

So, I'm confused. I've read on here about the lawsuits regarding child molestation and the GB distancing iteslf from the actions of Elders and congregations. But here is the GB having direct control over property.

How can they both distance themselves from operations and have direct control??? How does this play out legally??

32

Watchtower Inc. 100 Henry Street Links to MANY other Suspect Companies

by objectivetruth in

there have been a few posts in the past about watchtower inc. at 100 henry street, but i do not see the answer i'm hoping for.. can anyone confirm or provide details linking watchtower inc. to the wbts?

they are across the street, and one can easily assume that they are connected, but i don't see any definite links.. the closest i have come is this link: http://www.insideview.com/directory/watchtower-inc which lists watchtower.org as the website.

this could have been posted like this in error however.. according to 2014 sec filings watchtower inc. has a ceo named sholom drizin ( a man worth possibly 2 billion.).

bafh

Why use a Shell Company Registrar in Nevada & a Virtual Office unless you're trying to Hide A LOT.

There are good reasons a company would register in Nevada and then have a virtual office. You will find a lot of companies are organized in Nevada and Delaware because they used to offer the strictest laws regarding protecting the privacy of company owners. So, if a business is organized in Nevada but operated out of New York and the owners wanted to maintain their privacy, they use a virtual office.

I operate a company in Canada, but I don't live there, so I have a virtual office. Not becuase I'm protecting my privacy, but because legally I am required to maintain an office.

I'm not saying there isn't something fishy going on, I don't know. But what has been laid out so far doesn't raise any red flags to me. Individuals with a lot of money often organize multiple business entities that then work together as part of their tax planning. It could just be that the owners of Watchtower Inc. have nothing to do with THE Watchtower but chose that name because they were across the street.

Anyway, there might be something going on, but I just wanted to point out that these things I commented on do not in and of themselves mean anything suspect is happening.

36

If You Were Still "In The Truth" What Type of Life Would You Have?

by minimus in

jw
friends

do you think you would be just going thru the motions?

would you be an elder, ms, or pioneer?.

i think there are many that stay in the religion simply because of family/friends considerations.

bafh

I would have killed myself too. In fact, I tried at 26. By the time I stopped going to meetings, I was less depressed, but having full on anxiety attacks in the KH. Those stopped when I stopped going. For me, the scruitiny, and social clicks, and talks about "are you doing all you can??????" just added up to me wanting to run out screaming.

I realize that underneath, it was about knowing that I was not a "true believer" and never was and the anxiety about being found out. Now, the only place I have to really hide it is with my family. My mom is a pioneer, and a true believer. It's not my place to judge someone else's faith. So, I'm open, accepting, and pleasant about it.

Since I've left, I have made a few friends through Meetup, or by being on a board. I'm introverted enough to make making friends a challenge for me, and I am a little lonely, so I'm working on making more connections. I'm reaching out to some of the people I know who have already left that I actually connected with - I just have to keep it on the down low. As I'm trying to make my way, I've come to see how artificial the social environment is because you always have "instant friends" - they are superficial, boring and will stab you in the back - but you have like a TON of 'em. How great is that???

I think it is sort of hard making friends after that sort of conditioning, and I have been considering going back....I'm not sure I could do it, but I'm considering it.

61

Thoughts on going back, am I the only one that feels this way?

by excaliber in

jw
friends

hello everyone, i know you have heard this topic before and your probably thinking.

...not again lol.. but i was wondering if anyone has thought of going back for the same reasons as myself, i don't think its the truth but i searched and my conclusion is that other religions don't have the truth, they are all wrong in my opinion.

if there is no other religion to go too, why leave were i was born and raised.

bafh

I have had thoughts of going back mostly because I miss having a community of people I've known my whole life. It is harder to make friends after you come out of such an isolating organization at an older age. I've been out for 5 years, and will be 42 on Friday. I'm just starting to build some friendships outside - I joined a board, go to meetups, network for my business. If I went back, none of that would change.

What keeps me from going back is not being sure I can sit through a meeting. The ignorance, judgement and bashing that happens would require me to turn my brain into a pretzel every time I went - or to totally check out...

the other thing is - I could not - in good conscious - go out in service and recruit someone to the organization. I guess I could just go to the door and read scriptures, which would be fine with me. I do think people find them comforting...

How are others dealing with the social pressure? I'm feeling really lonely.

30

I regret my disassociation.

by Zoos in

jw
friends

if i knew then what i know now, i might never have disassociated myself.

i realize all i can do is speculate on what could have been.

however, when i consider the number of people i might have been able to help by dropping little thought-provoking seeds, i really regret having jumped to the decision to disassociate so quickly.. ive read the accounts of several people on this forum telling of how stressful it is to be in the position that i just described above.

bafh

If you really want to - you could get reinstated and go back to "rescue" those who you think you can help. I'm not sure however, that I think it is our place to mess with what another person believes. Some people need to believe in something like this, and it could cause them more harm than good to pull that out from under them.

34

Did you think Dinosaurs were destroyed in the Flood?

by LoisLane looking for Superman in

in our jw bible, they placed a friendly dinosaur on the inside front cover on the old time map of the middle east.. you look at that, and see where the placement to where the garden of eden is and that was the image i got in my mind.

dinosaurs lived, but were too big to save in the flood, and besides they had outlived their purpose of fertilizing the earth.

i feel stupid for the thinking i had when i was 'in'.. is that how you 'thought' when you were 'in'?.

bafh

I saw an interesting documentary recently that explains the current theory that it was an asteroid. Works for me.