I haven't been able to watch it yet - but do they address that the perpertrators are generally someone you know and trust, ie an elder, ms or any man in the congregation?
Posts by bafh
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49WT Society Makes Light of Child Abuse Crimes by Portraying them as Cartoons
by flipper ini commented on this on another thread- but i believe this has enough importance to create a thread about this situation in and of itself.
at the current district convention as you know the wt society released a " sophie & caleb " video allegedly warning parents about the dangers of child abuse.
they don't really use the words " child abuse " in the video - but just say if " someone tries to touch you in a manner you aren't comfortable with " and portray it as a cartoon !
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"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?
by cofty inthe children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.
he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.
if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.
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bafh
I've been thinking about this more and I have come to the conclusion that I think the Bible discusses two types of forgiveness:
Divine/Moral: Bestowed upon humans by God for sins they commit. This forgiveness is given to humans for the benefit of the individual receiving the forgiveness and is realized inside of the moral/spiritual structure outlined in the scriptures. Scriptural references: Law given to Israel, Acts 3:19, etc.
Human: Bestowed upon humans by other humans for real or imagined wrongs. This forgiveness is given to fellow humans for the benefit of the one doing the forgiving although it may lead to repentance, reconciliation a healed relationship. Scriptural references: Matt 5:39, Matt 18:22, etc.
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I Don't Get It!
by John Aquila inthere are literally about thirty young single very good looking sisters in this one kingdom hall under the age of 30. that is just one kingdom hall.
in the circuit there are literally hundreds of young beautiful jw girls under 30 who are single and anxious to get married.
about two years ago, this one single good looking brother who is about 30 years old and who is an elder married this plain looking sister who is 59 years old.
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bafh
Why is this an issue? The men in the congregation have always done this. -
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How do you feel about exJW's who resist our efforts to effect change?
by nicolaou ini've met a few.
i'm not talking about the jw who, whether df'd or not, falls off the radar and just gets on with living a normal life - good luck to them and may there be many more!.
i mean the former jehovah's witness who is now enjoying all the benefits of a cult free life thanks to the efforts of many bloggers, posters and activists, but is critical of the efforts of someone close them to free more jws.
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bafh
I do think bringing information to the forefront about the organization as a whole is helpful - but I do fall into the camp of "if they want to leave, they will." This is based on my own experience with True Believers as friends and family.
You can't have been a JW very long before you experience first hand the hypocrisy of the Elder arrangement or the constantly shifting Tide of "current thinking" Religion being the opiate of the masses isn't just a clever saying - it's true.
There is a lot of security in having The Truth and being right or more right than the next guy. There is a lot of responsibility avoided by not having to think too much or to plan too far in advance.
Given that some people , my mom for instance, needs and thrives on that structure - I don't think it is my place to disrupt her faith. Even when I have brought up valid points of contention that they, even momentarily agree with, I find they are still able to dismiss any evidence that threatens their belief system in some way.
i think when people,are ready, the information is there. And we are here to assist in the difficult transition out.
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"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?
by cofty inthe children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.
he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.
if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.
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bafh
bafh - So christian forgiveness is nothing more than choosing not to harbour a lust for revenge. It has nothing at all to do with the other person. It is nothing you wouldn't find in any self-help book or the advice column of a magazine.
And your point is....?
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111
"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?
by cofty inthe children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.
he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.
if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.
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bafh
The question is what does that mean in practice
Crofty - here is my answer which I posted last week:
Forgiveness is letting go of negative feelings such as anger or revenge toward the person who has harmed you. It an action a person takes for themselves, not for the person who they forgive. It is a way to free oneself from the upset around a bad experience. It does not require the other person to do anything, not even apologize.
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111
"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?
by cofty inthe children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.
he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.
if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.
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bafh
Now this same slave was owed a little money from a friend of his, also a slave. His friend could not pay it back yet and he too asks for leniency, but the first slave has his friend thrown into prison for the debt. This news gets back to the first slaves master.
The forgiveness wasn't "undone". He was being punished for not showing mercy to his fellow slave. This is unrelated to his original debt and punishment that was canceled by his master.
(Matthew 18:32-34) "Then his master summoned him and said to him: ‘Wicked slave, I canceled all that debt for you when you pleaded with me. Should you not also have shown mercy to your fellow slave as I showed mercy to you?’ With that his master, provoked to wrath, handed him over to the jailers until he repaid all that he owed."
The point here is that we have all been forgiven even large debts and we are expected to freely forgive others. -
111
"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?
by cofty inthe children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.
he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.
if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.
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bafh
cofty
I think what has irritated me about this is that it isn't authentic.
Christians respond to events the way they are expected to react. JWs do the same.
Here we have adult children of a murder victim saying they already forgive the murderer of their parent less than 24 hours after the event. The murderer is still filled with hate and has expressed no regret.
There is nothing authentic about this. It is a pre-programmed reaction. They are performing for the watching world.What right do you have to judge what is or is not real or authentic for another person?
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111
"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?
by cofty inthe children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.
he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.
if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.
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bafh
This thread has nothing at all to do with judging that is a red herring.
Oh, I beg to differ. Your whole argument is that the relatives of the victims are lying or being inauthentic because they say they have forgiven the killer when you can't imagine yourself doing it.
This is may not have been your original question - but it is related. You have no right to judge another person especially when you do not know them.
And just because others can forgive in situations you would not, does not make their choice invalid or wrong or make your choice some how more right. -
111
"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?
by cofty inthe children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.
he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.
if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.
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bafh
No. I don't think a parent saying, "I forgive you" and then punishing a child is a hypocrite. The punishment is the consequence. You choose the behavior, you choose the consequence. Parents are well within their right to teach children that their actions have consequences.
If you are trying to take the Christian view - there are plenty of verses that speak about not judging. Here are a few reminders:
Luke 6:37
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
Luke 6:41
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
John 8:7
When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."
Romans 2:1
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
Romans 14:10
You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.
Romans 14:13
Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister.
1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.
James 4:11
Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.I agree with this point of view. I do not think there is anything wrong with that. As I've been saying consequences are not tied to forgiveness. It is something I do for myself, not for the one who has wronged me. I can completely forgive someone, and still agree with or want consequences or punishment for that person. They are not one and the same.Forgiveness seems to have been reduced to nothing more than choosing not to be consumed by hatred.