Posts by Liberty

22

My Investigation Begins..........

by sandy in

well everyone thanks to many of your comments and urgings i started my investigation to find the "truth" about the wtbts.

today, i wrote two letters to the united nations and i finally ordered crisis of conscience.

if any of you have any more suggestions or comments please reply.. .

Liberty

Hi Sandy,

May your search for truth be fruitful. I don't see how you can go wrong by getting more information. If the Watch Tower Society is really who they claim to be then your search will prove they have the Truth. If you find in your research that they are false then you have gained a great gift in knowing that they are exploiting their followers and that you can free yourself from this exploitation. Either way, if there is a God, He would approve of your honest questioning of those who use/abuse His authority. It is difficult for a person to reexamine their beliefs, let alone change them. It takes a brave and honest person to admit that they may have been fooled.

Many things caused me to doubt the Watch Tower Society. One thing which seems very clear are all of their false predictions. I'm a JW from long ago so I didn't need to research this aspect of their less than truthful approach to date setting. I was around during the late 60's and through the 1970's and saw first hand not only that they were wrong about Armageddon's time frame but that then they proceeded to waffel and finally lie about their false predictions after they saw this date receed into history. This alone proves they have no "spirit direction from God" to help them understand Bible prophesy. They are just another religion cashing in on the fear of Armageddon

2

1917 News

by Sargon in

.

just to let everyone know.

the last survivor of the battle for vimy ridge died yesterday at the age of 103. there are now only 19 canadian veterans left from the first world war.. the only significance in pointing this out is how close at hand the end of the 1914 generation actually is.

Liberty

Hi Sargon,

This is an interesting item since even babies born around 1914 are almost extinct by now. This teaching is discredited all the more by realizing that babies are never thought of as part of a "generation" in any general time frame. The 60's generation, for example, were never understood to be the babies born in this era but rather the adults who were the movers and shakers of the time. At the very least, an influential person is usually in their mid 20's before they can have any impact upon the mores of their generation and many are in their 30's,40's, and 50's if we think of politicians, business leaders, and military officers having a real impact on their contemporary society, especially so in 1914. The reality of how silly the Watch Tower Society's excuses are sinks in when we realize that a 40 year old in 1914 would be 66 by 1940, a very average age of death for that time. In short, even the longest lived survivors of the 1914 Generation died out at least 40 years ago. Keep in mind too that the WTS never said "when the tiny number of 100+ year old survivors finally all die the end will come" they said "before the 1914 Generation passes away Armageddon will have begun.". This generation doctrine was "modified" in 1995 because even gullible JWs found it too hard to hold on to in its original form. It is now thoroughly discredited and joins the many other false predictions from the Watch Tower leadership on the scrap heap of history.

30

Cain and Abel..... why the disagreements?

by anti-absolutism in

jw
friends

when i was quite young, (about 8 years old) and i was told about the abel being favoured by god, cain getting jealous and killing abel story, i couldn't help but wonder why god was so hard on cain.

i am certainly not condoning cain killing his brother, but since god made both the animals that abel was offering and the veggies that cain was offering, why was cain looked down on?.

also, why did it seem better to god to kill an animal that abel offered, as opposed to thinking, well at least cain is only wasting some food.

Liberty

Hi Neonmadman,

You are right, Cain being murdered is not in the modern Bible. It's been so long since I researched the Cain and Able story that I got a Rabbinical tradition mixed up with the Cannonized Bible books. So since it's just a Jewish tradition and not in the Bible I'll pull this argument from the table and admit I made an error. However, my other questions are valid and I have seen no good refutations of them so far. How can one be cursed to wander and at the same time found a city? Who populated this city since Cain was a wanderer far from the only humans, Adam, Eve, and their other children? Who was Cain afraid of that might kill him since God could easily tell his family, the world's only humans, to leave him alone and he wandered away from them?

172

Evolution or Creation??

by dottie in

well i know i may be opening a can of worms here.... but after what we were taught in the wts about creation...and now that you may know more about evolution... which do you think you'd choose to believe more??.

myself...i am leaning towards evolution...but then i read things that make me think otherwise.

so i do find it confusing sometimes .

Liberty

Hi Dottie,

I think your confusion is caused by a lack of information. We can't all be experts on everything so we must decide for ourselves that which we must research ourselves and that which we trust others to research for us. As an ex-JW I was obsessed with the truth of our natural history so I was driven to research evolution specifically and science in general since I no longer trusted the "research" done on these subjects by the Watch Tower Society who are proven liars. If you are bothered by your doubts I strongly suggest taking University level classes in the sciences, especially Geology, Biology, and Paleontology. This is a huge investment in time and money but for me it has been worth it for the peace of mind which has resulted from knowing first hand the whys, hows, and whats of real science. Another alternative is to read a lot of books on the subject but without teachers to help you this will be more difficult but less expensive. The best science books for laymen I know were written by Carl Sagan and, as someone has already mentioned, Stephen Gould. These books are not substitutes for a University education but will help a person to understand the basic scientific methods employed by researchers in these fields along with the evidence these methods provide. This way you can weigh the evidence for yourself and not depend on some one else's interpretations and conclusions. The more research you do on your own the more convincing the evidence will become.

An honest search for the truth has revealed to me mountains of evidence which proves that the WTS doesn't have a clue about the Earth's history and that the Bible cannot be the inspired word of God because it is filled with falsehood and contradictions. If God exists He could not be the inspiration behind a book which can be refuted at every turn by the very evidence He created all around us in the natural Universe. Science is all about making observations and gathering evidence in the natural Universe. Science does not address issues of the supernatural such as the existance of invisible super beings in the spirit realm or their role in creating the Universe. Natural forces which can be observed are studied and the Bible presents events which were supposed to have occured in the physical natural realm so these can be observed, evidence gathered and conclusions drawn. All the physical evidence so far gathered proves that the Bible does not accurately describe the development of the Universe, the Earth, nor the life forms found upon it. Such fanciful biblical events as a Global Flood or the Tower of Babel stories are just not possible given the evidence available. In short, the Bible is thoroughly discredited as a literal historical record and as the inspired word of God since He would logically not inspire lies which are discredited by His own creations.

6

What about the $$$$

by sandy in

i keep reading some of your posts and many of you make metion of the wtbts making billions of dollars.

can any of you elaborate on this?

and where can i find the information myself?.

Liberty

Hi Sandy,

I'm no accountant nor do I have secret info sources but I can do simple math. The Society produces millions and millions of various publications in volunteer labor factories they own tax free where the raw materials are purchased in huge bulk at huge discounts. By the time a piece of literature reaches a JW for distribution it has only cost the WTS a few cents. The JWs then purchase large amounts of this material for their own use and for their free labor distribution to the public. The Society has already made a huge profit at this point because they charge more than a few cents per item which at this point could all go in the trash, but wait there is more. Many JWs take donations from the "householders" they give literature to and many of these JWs give the Society back the entire donation in essence doubling the huge profit they had to begin with. Experts in the printing business have calculated the costs they know in order to produce profits from unionized paid workers/distributors in taxable businesses with shareholders to answer to so I think the WTS makes plenty even if their products are 1/4 of the price charged at Kingdom Hall literature counters compared to for-profit literature prices. This doesn't even include straight donations given to the Society with no literature exchange involved. Just the real estate and buildings owned by the WTS is proof of the immense wealth they control.

7

Anointed VS. G.B.: Who is Faithful Slave Class?

by Liberty in

jw
friends

plmkrzy's post about the wt article on who should partake of the "emblems" really brings to light a serious contradiction in the watch tower society's own convoluted theology.

many here have already pointed out these contradictions but i think it needs repeating in a clear post of its own.

if, as this new wt article claims, an anointed one does not have any "greater understanding" of scripture than the non-anointed then what happens to the old teaching that the anointed are regularly in communication with jah's holy spirit and transmit these communications to the wt society's leadership?

Liberty

Welcome to the board Uriah,

It's good to have folks who remember the same things I do because after having been in this cult it can really start to make you question your own memory sometimes, like poor Winston in Orwell's book, 1984. Ray Franz's Crisis of Conscience is a remarkable revelation about the Watch Tower Society because of the "small" falsehoods it reveals rather than any sensational scandles. The WTS's leadership has told hundreds of little lies over the years that add up to a more powerful repudiation than any one big sex or money cover up could have by itself. Jim Bakker was just greedy, horny, and thoroughly human in his scandles as opposed to the WTS bunch who come off colder, systematic, and much more calculating all proving their greater contempt for the JWs they have exploited.

7

Anointed VS. G.B.: Who is Faithful Slave Class?

by Liberty in

jw
friends

plmkrzy's post about the wt article on who should partake of the "emblems" really brings to light a serious contradiction in the watch tower society's own convoluted theology.

many here have already pointed out these contradictions but i think it needs repeating in a clear post of its own.

if, as this new wt article claims, an anointed one does not have any "greater understanding" of scripture than the non-anointed then what happens to the old teaching that the anointed are regularly in communication with jah's holy spirit and transmit these communications to the wt society's leadership?

Liberty

Hi Gumby,

I am an old timer so it is possible that the Society changed/swept under the rug this doctrine since I left years ago. I'm guessing you were still in more recently than me so it's very possible they have stopped emphasizing this in recent years. In any case, I can't remenber a specific publication which describes this mysterious "spirit directed" arrangement but it was common knowledge among JWs when I was in and lent spiritual legitimacy to the leadership structure. The rank & file accepted that all of the anointed were somehow part of the leadership because of their spiritual bond with Christ and the communication of the holy spirit.

Back in my day most JWs out in the sticks were unaware of the specific leadership personalities who really called the shots in New York. The person oriented leadership was always kept very deliberately anonomous (even the books and mags had no authors credited) and we proudly declared that we were not a cult because we did not follow a human personality. We had some vague idea of a legal/business structure to keep the printing factories running but had no idea that this was in fact also the seat of real power and doctrine formulation as well. In fact this is what Fred Franz gave a talk about which led to the (unintended by Fred) leadership shake up described in Crisis of Conscience by Ray Franz where the Governing Body took control away from the office of President. This shakeup event was totally unknown to be of any importance among rank & file JWs because we never knew the Watch Tower Society had been, up to that point, a totally one or two man show (Russel and Rutherford were one man dictatorships whereas Knorr and Franz worked as team dictators).

I'm not saying these important figures were totally unknown among the JWs, I'm just saying we had no concept of their true power within the organization. I'm sure that some JWs who worked at Bethel or who were nearer to the seat of power were also more aware of the power arrangements than those of us who were futher removed in other parts of the country. In any case we were expected to believe that the surviving anointed were all together driving the operation under the spirit direction of Christ and Jehovah and therefore anything the Society said was directly from God and was not to be questioned. In short, most of us had no idea that one man, specifically Fred Franz, was responsible for most of what we believed. Some of us sacrificed greatly for and some even died for these one man proclaimations/interpretations, thinking all the while they were from the anointed collective who would one day continue to rule us from heaven after Armageddon.

12

Question about JW and Brooklyn

by Eppie in

jw
friends

hai all,.

i have a question: when i read on this site i notice that many people are upset by the organisation of jw and not necessarily their beliefs (also, but less upset maybe?).

i have a question though: we talk about jws being indoctrinated and brainwashed etc., but where does it originate?

Liberty

Hi Eppie,

The short answer to your question is yes, the Watch Tower Society leadership does just make up their twisted theology and then force feeds it to the rank & file JWs as God's own truth. Over the years the WTS has deliberatly confused the source of this "spirit inspired direction" but by putting together information from court documents, letters, and insider info it becomes clear that the basic foundations of the whole JW philosophy was invented by just a few individuals: Russel, Rutherford, Knorr, and most importantly for JWs over the last 50 years, Fred Franz. Rutherford and Fred Franz being the most responsible for almost everything current JWs believe. The standard JW response that, "we are not a cult because we don't follow a powerful human leader" is a complete falsehood(unknown to rank & file JWs) because the WTS has for most of its history been under the complete control of one or two leaders at any given time and under the control of a very small and exclusive group since the late 1970's. Despite the carefully crafted appearance of doctrinal consistancy the WTS's theology has been ever changing and modified to fit the whims of the leadership and changing circumstances which further proves God has had nothing to do with it since Jah's instructions would be perfect, complete, and immutable. I highly recommend you read Ray Franz's excellent books Crisis of Conscience and In Search of Christian Freedom to get a real feel for what we are talking about. Ray was Fred Franz's nephew and an actual member of the Governing Body.

As to money, only Russel and Rutherford personally abused their donations and lived extravigant lifestyles in a blatent manner as this was easier to hide in the old days. Knorr, Franz, and the modern G.B. certainly lived/live comfortable lives but were/are more careful about being too visibly materialistic. I don't think money, in of itself, was ever what drove these leaders but rather the power and respect they had as important religious leaders. Someone with a talent like Knorr's could have made much more money in private business than he ever did as a Watch Tower leader but could never have garnered the respect, adulation, or complete control he had as a Watch Tower president. The Society as a collective is wealthy beyond most JWs' wildest dreams but I think the leadership enjoys the power and control such wealth brings much more than the luxuries it could buy them as individuals.

7

Anointed VS. G.B.: Who is Faithful Slave Class?

by Liberty in

jw
friends

plmkrzy's post about the wt article on who should partake of the "emblems" really brings to light a serious contradiction in the watch tower society's own convoluted theology.

many here have already pointed out these contradictions but i think it needs repeating in a clear post of its own.

if, as this new wt article claims, an anointed one does not have any "greater understanding" of scripture than the non-anointed then what happens to the old teaching that the anointed are regularly in communication with jah's holy spirit and transmit these communications to the wt society's leadership?

Liberty

plmkrzy's post about the WT article on who should partake of the "emblems" really brings to light a serious contradiction in the Watch Tower Society's own convoluted theology. Many here have already pointed out these contradictions but I think it needs repeating in a clear post of its own. If, as this new WT article claims, an anointed one does not have any "greater understanding" of scripture than the non-anointed then what happens to the old teaching that the anointed are regularly in communication with Jah's holy spirit and transmit these communications to the WT Society's leadership? This, of course, was never true any where but on paper since the WT Society was always run from the top down by dictatorial individual presidents until near the end of Knorr's term when the G.B. took over as a dictatorial closed commitee. This event is detailed in Crisis of Conscience by Ray Franz.

No attempt was ever made to get the "spirit motivated" communications from the anointed scattered in various congregations by the early individual presidents or by the newly empowered G.B. so, despite what the rank & file JWs were told, it is clear that no such arrangement really ever existed and was a lie designed to provide spiritual legitimacy to the leadership. This lie is expanded by claiming that all those in important leadership roles were also of the anointed class thus giving them more "spiritual" authority since they too were tuned in directly to Jah's holy spirit, hence a "spirit directed" organization.. This "special" status is now called into question by the Watch Tower itself since an anointed one "has no greater understanding of scripture" than the non-anointed. This "clarification" was needed to keep the anointed who are not in leadership positions in subjection to local Elders who are now mostly of the "Great Crowd" class but it also makes one wonder how these anointed can be "spirit directed" but yet have no clearer understanding of scripture? How can the Faithful Slave class be all the anointed if they have no greater understanding of scripture?

29

Michael Jackson.....again!

by ScoobySnax in

jw
friends

well now i can't make my mind up...!!

(whats new) over her in the uk, skyone has just aired the michael jackson side of the documentary from martin bashir....you know the one where mj is filming bashir interviewing him, a kind of a me watching you watching me thing.

while i've always thought mj has lost the plot a bit, i do like his music, and this new film totally contradicted the original bashir documentary.

Liberty

Hi again Sara Annie,

I'm the guy you hated in the legalized drug debate but I'm on your side in this one. There is no way MJ's kids are his real bio offspring. I've known numerous biracial children and seen hundreds more and it is clear as day, even through the masks and viels, that these kids are all white and couldn't possibly be MJ's bio kids. Racial traits are not recessive genes, they cannot be masked unless there is very little of them left in one of the breeding pairs. MJ was clearly of a strong African mix before his "transformation" and these strong traits would be transmitted to his real children. My best friend is as red headed, blue eyed, "pure" white as they come and his wife is only 1/2 black but their kids still have dark wavey hair and brown skin and distinct African features, as have all mixed race kids I've observed ( includind albinos, a true recessive gene, even without any pigmentation these children had clearly visible African traits). I'd bet the masks are really there to hide this fact for MJ's kids since other much richer people don't make their kids wear masks.

I want to be clear on this, I don't care about race, I only care about the truth and MJ is a proven liar, (did/didn't know mother of 3rd child, didn't have extreme plastic surgery, has a billion$, Bubbles washes windows, etc.) he is also lying about these kids. They are not his bio offspring, he clearly bought them, period. He lies to keep the authorities from taking these kids away because if they are not his bio offspring he has not gone through legal adoption channels.