Posts by Lionel_P

23

Liars for the Watchtower?

by JosephAlward in

jw
friends

were they liars for the watchtower?

some forum members have made much of the letter from the portuguese branch of the jehovahs witnesses, explaining why the watchtower affiliated with the united nations department of public information; they believe it contradicts a similar letter from britain.

in this post i rebut that argument.

Lionel_P_Hartley

Alward stated:

If there had been an attempt by the Watchtower to lie its way through this whole thing--if, indeed, it had done anything wrong--then wouldn’t we expect the various branches to be singing exactly the same tune, lest Watchtower destroyers would suspect that the differences were contradictions?

The WTS was initially caught off balance by this whole affair. Gillies, according to Stephen Bates was unaware of the link to the UN at first. However, once they had cobbled together some kind of story they issued the following statement;

This circular letter replaces any replies we have given earlier and is sent to all branches.

This link carries the entire statement: http://www.thetruthhurts.freeservers.com/wtresponseun.htm

Thus, the WTS did what Alward suggested would constitute evidence of lying - now the branches are all singing the same tune - and that tune is "library card for research" not "affiliation so that the UNO can assist with our humanitarian mission" (Here I am paraphrasing and am not intending to suggest that the words in quotes were actually written down by the WTS).

Note too that the latest directive to branches "replaced all previous replies." Thus, the Portuguese branch, and all other branches, were being instructed not to deviate from the official explanation. It is hardly likely that the WTS would choose its words carelessly in such a directive.

LPH

23

Liars for the Watchtower?

by JosephAlward in

jw
friends

were they liars for the watchtower?

some forum members have made much of the letter from the portuguese branch of the jehovahs witnesses, explaining why the watchtower affiliated with the united nations department of public information; they believe it contradicts a similar letter from britain.

in this post i rebut that argument.

Lionel_P_Hartley

NGOs affiliate with the UN so that they can pursue shared goals - in this case those goals would be humanitarian goals since the WTS registered in the area of Human rights. The obvious reason that an NGO is given access to the library and other UN facilities is so that they can pursue those goals. That is, affiliation with the UN is for multiple connected purposes - it is not intended to be a one-way street in which an NGO simply gets a grounds pass.

Thus, all Alward has done is to say what is obvious - that access to the library is so that an NGO can pursue those goals. But note that it is Alward who has said it - not the WTS. Gillies said that the sole purpose for affiliation was to get access to the library. What part of "sole" doesn't Alward understand?

That is why it is possible to have access to the library without being an NGO. The sole purpose of an NGO is not access to the library - it is furtherance of shared goals, and is more along the lines explained by the Portuguese branch.

In fact, very few JWs will be aware of all three of these statements -and even if they were they would defer to the official letter from Brooklyn - which Brooklyn (really Patterson) states supercedes all previous letters.

What Alward seems to miss is that the WTS has not honestly stated what they were doing. Gillies' letter tells JWs that it was just for a library card and this has become embedded in the minds of many JWs -as it was intended to be. Any mention of the UN issue is met with "Oh, that was just to get into the library." So the seriousnes of the matter is trivialized - as was the intention. When Stepen Bates emailed Gillies and pointed out the errors in his letter did Gillies correct them? Of course not.

Does the WTS care to clear this misperception up by explaining that there was a humanitarian aspect to its affiliation? Or did it send a letter to all branches telling them that what they will say in response to future inquiries? The Brooklyn letter mention ecological problems etc but is a far cry from what the Portuguese branch said which also stated

It is not a political maneuver", says the AJW spokesman, "because without the support of the
UNO it would not be possible to distribute humanitarian help". And as the registry "does not violate
the statutory precepts" of the JW, the criticisms to the registry in the DPI "do not have any basis",
says Pedro Candeias.»

Now, why do you need a library card to distribute humanitarian help? And why doesn't this admirable statement appear in the other letters if the "resistry as NGO was made only to be able to give humanitarian help ...."

Since when has the WTS economized on the length of letters? Alward's arguments start from a false premise - the WTS did not lie. He has written so much about that that now he cannot back away from it without losing face. Note what Alward said yeterday in another thread:

If someone besides Hartley wishes to present the "Portuguese" argument in a dispassionate, objective manner, I would be happy to try to rebut it.

For all his talk of objectivity, Alward shows that even before hearing what the argument was he would try to rebut it. Why? Because, apparently he has formulated his opinion already!

Many people have written genuine letters - e.g., zev - to the WTS asking for clarification. All they get back is a form letter that conveys a totally misleading impression. That is lying. Those who talk to their elders may be threatened - as was badwillie.

It boils down to the following - does an individual think the WTS was being honest or not? No one can make that decision for another, and no amount of discussion can resolve it, especially when the debate is reduced to semantical nonsense. At that point the language itself loses its meaning - as anyone who cares to look at some of the threads in the "Scandal" section will realize.

But if the WTS did want to deceive people then they have certainly done a good job. On the other hand, if they wanted to be honest then how simple it would be for such a large printing organization to clear the matter up.

So here's the acid test; Alward, and anyone else who wishes should call up the WTS, or write to them, or talk with their elders and ask them about the points made by Alward as well as the other multiple discrepancies discussed elsewhere. For if the WTS is anxious that the truth be known then it will answer anyone who inquires. I'd suggest calling Harry Peloyan, the editor of Awake!, and asking him for clarification. Why this endless debate when the honesty of the WTS can be put to the test directly.

LPH

58

Question about WTS/UN scandal

by gilwarrior in

ok we know that the wts was, until recently, associated with the un even through the wts clearly condemns it.

of course the reason they gave for associating with the un is lame.. my question is this: what do you think is the real reason that the wts decided associate themselves with the un?.

i don't think that anyone has ever answered that question.

Lionel_P_Hartley

Well, when I read the first post of yours that I saw, I noted the link to your web page,

So I went and read your web page.

And then I said, this is interesting, I wonder who this "Joseph Alward" character is.

So then I went to the Google serach engine and I typed in Joseph Alward. And you came up.

If there's any part of this that needs amplification do let me know.

38

Are You Vegetarian Or Not?

by ladonna in

jw
friends

with all the "food" "fluff" larc has started, it has made me wonder how many here are vegetarian or meat eaters.. i like my meat in winter, but only in very small amounts.. summertime i go completely vegetarian and relish fruits and vegetables.. how about you??.

ana.

manners require time, and nothing is more vulgar than haste.

Lionel_P_Hartley

ladonna,

Why only red veggies - those murdeous a**holes eat only RED meat so that's my revenge :-)

LPH, vegan class but multicolred veggies class too - kidding klass

58

Question about WTS/UN scandal

by gilwarrior in

ok we know that the wts was, until recently, associated with the un even through the wts clearly condemns it.

of course the reason they gave for associating with the un is lame.. my question is this: what do you think is the real reason that the wts decided associate themselves with the un?.

i don't think that anyone has ever answered that question.

Lionel_P_Hartley

Idiot - do you think that I was so thick as to read your web page and not plug your your name into a search engine? The page interested me enough to do that - but don't worry Joe, I'm harmless. I'm just surprised at how dense you are - given yr web page. My assumption now is that you copied the stuff from someone. After all, in the quote you cited I didn't say that the info was on yr web page, now did I? I said that I had read yr web page and then checked out who you were. Are you learning impared? If so, then kindly state and I will factor that in. You do seem to have problems with sentences.

I do believe that I have heard the "extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence" mantra elsewhere. Of course, it's correct. But, for some it is a mantra - to give the illusion of scholarship. Is that what it is for you - a buoy in a chaotic sea?

Give it up Joe - or would you like to call a truce and debate intelligently, and without name-calling (of which I am guilty as charged) something significant such as quantum mechanics - in a separate thread?

I must add that I do think you have some promise - but don't be arrogant unless you can back it, and please, as SS requests, do some background on the WTS.

Seriously, Joseph, I think you have good intent but you are not sufficiently familar with WTS stuff to make a valuable contribution - yet. Odd as you may consier it, I do respect yr answers to SS. That I mean sincerely and it has altered my opinion of you. Not that that should matter.

LPH

ps: I do declare - I am breaking my rule yet again....and answering you.

58

Question about WTS/UN scandal

by gilwarrior in

ok we know that the wts was, until recently, associated with the un even through the wts clearly condemns it.

of course the reason they gave for associating with the un is lame.. my question is this: what do you think is the real reason that the wts decided associate themselves with the un?.

i don't think that anyone has ever answered that question.

Lionel_P_Hartley

Joseph,

Perhaps I'm the only one who read through your web page and checked out who you were - I must admit that I am especially surprised that someone in your profession could be so myopic. Anyone who makes a whole thread out of the misspelling of "annointed" has to be some kind of pedant.

Oh well, sorry if I irked you. But I was actually happy to see you on this forum, for I felt that a measure of academic objectivity would be healthy. But I was wrong. After all, anyone who offers to "rebut an argument - the Portguese one - before it is presented is obviously biased - now isn't he?

Reply or don't bother - I really don't care.

I will admit to not sticking to what I said and abandoning this thread - apologies for that. I guess I really felt that you might be capable of objectivity.

LPH

58

Question about WTS/UN scandal

by gilwarrior in

ok we know that the wts was, until recently, associated with the un even through the wts clearly condemns it.

of course the reason they gave for associating with the un is lame.. my question is this: what do you think is the real reason that the wts decided associate themselves with the un?.

i don't think that anyone has ever answered that question.

Lionel_P_Hartley

I can see the downside to either path followed by the Watchtower: affiliation, or becoming "serious researchers."

That's plain stupid. Since the second course involves no obligations to the WTS they could simply have said - we applied for a library card and that's all there is to it. Many, probably most JWs in the UK and US, knew that the WTS was using the UN library - after all, Bethel used to organize tours to the UN as I undersatnd it - so that would have been no big deal.

I'm fed up debating this stuff and educating you in the process. Stick to what you know please. If anything.

58

Question about WTS/UN scandal

by gilwarrior in

ok we know that the wts was, until recently, associated with the un even through the wts clearly condemns it.

of course the reason they gave for associating with the un is lame.. my question is this: what do you think is the real reason that the wts decided associate themselves with the un?.

i don't think that anyone has ever answered that question.

Lionel_P_Hartley

Joseph,

I love it. There an infinite number of excuses that the WTS could make. There are also an infinite number of explanations of "necessary." Hell, for all we know Harry Peloyan had a woody for Paul Hoeffel and that's what made it "necessary" to affiliate.

Your trouble, Joseph, is that (a) you are so arrogant that you think that only evidence that satisfies you is the evidence that is sufficient and (b) you don't understand that, in principle, your methods mean than no issue will ever be resolved.

For example, in a previous thread you stated;

I don't need to have Jehovah's Witnesses into my home to know that the Watchtower is among the most destructive legal institutions in the world.

But how do you [i}know[/i] that. That is unfair accusation and you would be laughed out of court if you made it there. Why is it destructive - can you prove that? After all, JWs are free to leave if they wish, and they are not coerced to deny themselves or their children blood transfusions, they are free to seek legal assistance if their children are abused, etc. Trusting members of this forum might be deceived by your words into repeating this statement to their JW relatives, who would then, justifiably, accuse them of ungrounded accusations - it is typical apostate behavior,

You really are rather slow, Joseph. And you don't know thing one about Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watchtower Society. You don't have a clue.

Lionel

58

Question about WTS/UN scandal

by gilwarrior in

ok we know that the wts was, until recently, associated with the un even through the wts clearly condemns it.

of course the reason they gave for associating with the un is lame.. my question is this: what do you think is the real reason that the wts decided associate themselves with the un?.

i don't think that anyone has ever answered that question.

Lionel_P_Hartley

The trouble is, Joseph, that all through this thread - at least from the point where you decied to change the terms of the debate - you have been misrepresenting what they did actually say as if it meant what you think that they could have said. It is only in this last post but one that you finally admitted that you are interpreting what they did say as what they might have said. Careful readers will note that I had said that Alward was putting words in the WTS's mouth well before his last but one post. That is the misrepresentation. But Iwas gratified that you finally admitted the charge I made some several threads ago.

As for my mistatement - I have explained what I had intended to say. It was a simple slip - but a golden opportunity for a junior debating champion.

58

Question about WTS/UN scandal

by gilwarrior in

ok we know that the wts was, until recently, associated with the un even through the wts clearly condemns it.

of course the reason they gave for associating with the un is lame.. my question is this: what do you think is the real reason that the wts decided associate themselves with the un?.

i don't think that anyone has ever answered that question.

Lionel_P_Hartley

They could have said a lot of things. But they didn't - they said that it was necessary to register as an NGO to get access and it wasn't. Of course, if they had said as you suggested then it would certainly have damned them even more, for JWs would ask - well, then why did you register instead of taking the benign approach of simply documenting your research interests?

Actually, you are misrepresenting the WTS by putting words into their mouth. That you do it to make them look good is no more honest than the supposedly deliberate misrepresentation that you accuseed me of.

Since they were answering the question "Why did you register" and not "Why did you want a library card" then it is perfectly clear that they registered because it became necessary to have continued access - at least according to them.

You still have ignored the Portuguese question even though you started out demanding evidence for reasons beyond library access. That statement indicates an entirely different reason for registering. But shifting the terms of the debate is just another well known technique used by those who are interested more in trying to win a debate than to figure out what's going on.

Lionel_P_Hartley

Posts by Lionel_P_Hartley