i realize that i avoid using their name for god.. i can say it................. jehovah.
but i'll avoid it almost always..... if i'm talking with you,.
on the rare occasions that i am in conversation with any jdub family,.
What are you talking about Jay88?
The tetragram is the only word translated wrongly as either LORD or a compleatly different method of transliteration is applied to it (to get Yahweh) than is used for all the other names in the bible. If the same method of transliteration is applied to the tetragram as is used on every other name it would be translated as Jehovah- which it is! And I don't have a problem with that, but most other people do it seems.
i realize that i avoid using their name for god.. i can say it................. jehovah.
but i'll avoid it almost always..... if i'm talking with you,.
on the rare occasions that i am in conversation with any jdub family,.
PSacramento. You have a hang up over the vowels to Adonai being attributed to the English transliteration of the tetragram. Tell me, which vowels would you prefer?
That said, why would you rather the consonants YHWH over JHVH?
I prefur JHVH because it is consistent with EVERY OTHER NAME IN THE BIBLE but I guess that counts for nothing with you. So please- 1) which vowels, and 2) why the Y and W instead of J and V?
i realize that i avoid using their name for god.. i can say it................. jehovah.
but i'll avoid it almost always..... if i'm talking with you,.
on the rare occasions that i am in conversation with any jdub family,.
Jehovah is NOT a translation or tranliteration of YHWH or any other name in the OT, it just isn't. Period.
PSacramento, have you stopped to think that I do know what you are saying, and I disagree, and it is you who is refusing to understand?
Jehovah is a translation of the Hebrew word "Yoh- He- Waw- He". It is established and recognised, and it works. It's not pronounced the same as in Hebrew, but then neither is Moses, or any other proper name. I have already explained why and how and I'm not repeating myself.
i realize that i avoid using their name for god.. i can say it................. jehovah.
but i'll avoid it almost always..... if i'm talking with you,.
on the rare occasions that i am in conversation with any jdub family,.
However, Undercover, I do agree with this statement at the end of the quote:
The important thing is to use God's name according to its conventional pronunciation in our own language.
..which is what I'm saying. It's all very well if people want to redress the English language, but what is established is established. A bigger concern to me (because I don't believe God has anything to do with any of it- even if he did exist) is that the JW's are becoming the guardians of this already established word because no one else is using it. This gives them some kind of authority they do not deserve.
i realize that i avoid using their name for god.. i can say it................. jehovah.
but i'll avoid it almost always..... if i'm talking with you,.
on the rare occasions that i am in conversation with any jdub family,.
You keep missing the point, all those translation we have are from proper names and they have NOTHING to do with the term "jehovah".
How can you see that putting TWO words to make one is just wrong, it make sno sense that God name is a combination of YHWH and adonai since both words mean different things.
Let me explain. The proper names refered to have the same Hebrew letters as the tetragram- Yod and Waw (I think it is safe to say that 'He' is a H). Yod is always a J when transliterated in to English with proper names. Waw is always a V when transliterated in to English with proper names. The names listed were examples.
So, the tetragram is JHVH in English, not YHWH.
Outlaw, you are a cunt. Go fuck yourself!
i realize that i avoid using their name for god.. i can say it................. jehovah.
but i'll avoid it almost always..... if i'm talking with you,.
on the rare occasions that i am in conversation with any jdub family,.
PSacramento, you can, and we have got Jehovah from the Tetragram. We (speaknig English) do not say Yerusalem, Yoshua, Yudah, or Dawid and Lewi. We do say Jerusalem, Joshua, Judah, as well as David and Levi. These are facts. If it is a mistranslation, it is a consistent mistranslation that harmonises with the rest of how the Hebrew bible has been translated in to English.
The vowels are anybodies guess anyway, but using the same vowels as was in Adonai seems fair enough. No reason why not. The name has now established itself in English as can be seen in teh Monty Python clip on the first page, and Indiana Jones, as well as other stuff.
Thanks Jean Luc!
i realize that i avoid using their name for god.. i can say it................. jehovah.
but i'll avoid it almost always..... if i'm talking with you,.
on the rare occasions that i am in conversation with any jdub family,.
It is NOT the "JEH" part, it is the "OVAH" part that is totally inconsistent with hebrew and hwo the divien name was revealed to Moses ( I am that I am).
The fact is that Jehovah IS a mistranslation, that is a fact.
Are you sure? Well that comes down to whether the Hebrew letter waw is a W or a V, for which I can only think of David, and that is a V. When it comes to names in foreign languages I think the issue should be more about consistency than accuracy.
The monk (named Martini If I recall) who first coined the usage, again from memory, in the late 1400's, put in the vowels from Adhonai, the word for "Lord", without any justification.
So it is a mis-transliteration at least. Since we do not know what vowels were used in YHWH for sure, it is just possible, by some lucky coincidence, that Martini was not over indulging in the family aperitif, and got it right !
I doubt it though.
Surely for believers it must be plain to see that God did not want it used, if He did , He would have preserved it in a such a way that we could be sure we were using it correctly and respectfully.
Wobble, this argument contradicts itself and makes a totally ludicrous statement. You first argue that the vowels in Jehovah have no justification, but you then say we do not know the correct vowels. So my response is- HE MIGHT AS WELL USE THEM THEN! I don't get what your problem is.
The ludicrous statement is God would have preserved his name if he wanted us to use it. That's like saying if he wanted everyone to read the bible he would have written it in everyone's language! The fact is the tetragram does exist and it does not translate as the LORD. That is a false translation. Truth is we don't know how any Hebrew word sounded originally.
What is everyone's problem?
My problem is this little word is being attributed far too much power by virtue of people's fear of it. By avoiding it's use you are giving the JW's a prize gift of exclusively owning that word which they have no right to!
It's just as accurate a translation of the Hebrew as "Jerusalem" and "David". Get over it!
i've never been a jw, and i'm having a difficult time trying to understand the perspective of a born-in jw.
i want to ask questions that will cause this family member to began to think outside the box, but i don't want to trip off any apostate alarms and have him put his guard up.
i also don't want to waste time and energy asking questions that he can easily brush off and give the prepackaged watchtower answer without having to really think.
However, these sorts of gentle persuasions are more likely to end with both sides
being more convinced than before they are right and the other is wrong. I'd rather
play golf or watch paint dry.
The point is that JW's are not inquiring or curious because they have no reason to be, and they have no reason to be because no on ever says anything to them to make them question.
Someone has to make the effort. Do you really sit around (watching paint dry) expecting a curious JW to come up to you and ask you why their view point is wrong? Some of us ar'nt so inhuman as to leave them to their ignorence.
i've never been a jw, and i'm having a difficult time trying to understand the perspective of a born-in jw.
i want to ask questions that will cause this family member to began to think outside the box, but i don't want to trip off any apostate alarms and have him put his guard up.
i also don't want to waste time and energy asking questions that he can easily brush off and give the prepackaged watchtower answer without having to really think.
I'm with you Black Sheep! I really don't understand why some people say don't talk to them at all. When you know the truth about them there is nothing to fear.
i realize that i avoid using their name for god.. i can say it................. jehovah.
but i'll avoid it almost always..... if i'm talking with you,.
on the rare occasions that i am in conversation with any jdub family,.
Thanks Wiser! It is a dilema. If no one else uses the word Jehovah then the word will always be associated with the Watchtower Organisation. I think that would be a shame because it does pre date them and is a reasonable version of the tetragram, and they have no right to claim it for themselfs. That said, if scholars started using the word for God's name (well, the bible's god anyway) it would look like they are giving credence to the JW's. Personally, I'd liek to see scholars use the words Jehovah and Yahweh interchangeably- like it doesn't matter which you use, because it doesn't.
