Advice needed about my study with a JW.

by Resistance is Futile 25 Replies latest jw friends

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  Resistance is Futile

  I've never been a JW, and I'm having a difficult time trying to understand the perspective of a born-in JW. I want to ask questions that will cause this family member to began to think outside the box, but I don't want to trip off any apostate alarms and have him put his guard up. I also don't want to waste time and energy asking questions that he can easily brush off and give the prepackaged Watchtower answer without having to really think.

  When you were still a JW how would you have answered this question, "Was Jehovah using an earthly organization from the time in between the first century until Charles Russell started his organization in the late 1800's?" "Which organization had the truth during that time period?" Like I said I'm trying to ask questions that might not have easy or satisfactory answers contained in the WT CD.

  Can anyone offer up any questions or issues that really caused you to stop and think when you were a JW? What were some of the early red flags you may have noticed about the Watchtower doctine or organization?
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  jgnat

  I like to speak to hearts rather than dig around in doctrine. I've always wanted to earnestly ask if they have ever shunned someone close to them and how they feel about it.

  To help witnesses think outside the box, try engaging them on non-religious topics. I had an animated conversation with a few "sisters" over lunch at a general assembly, about the progress of technology. This went on for about five minutes before the programming kicked in. One of the ladies said, "But of course, the marvels in paradise will be so much better." I stared at her, and the conversation blanked. Really. A marvel more wonderful than an iPad is going to sprout from the meadows in amongst the frolicking tigers and giraffes. Who you gonna text in that "paradise"? I didn't say it though. I am content to drop seeds and encourage independent thinking whenever I see it.

  "Was Jehovah using an earthly organization from the time in between the first century until Charles Russell started his organization in the late 1800's?"

  Good question. Which ones? A JW apologist answered recently on the board by saying that the earth was plunged in to apostacy and darkness after Constantine. Nevertheless, the WT materials claim that there were "pockets" or "sparks" of true believers through the ages. So ask which ones. A former Bethelit researcher, Barbara Anderson, was given the task to locate these "worthy ones" (under the heading "Searching for Answers"). She was not able to.

  Years ago I quoted Susannah Wesley to another apologist and since she lived before Russell's time, I asked if she might be one of the anointed? I then asked if the Wesleyans might be approved of God? I got a garbled replly, sure sign that I hit home.
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  Resistance is Futile

  I've always wanted to earnestly ask if they have ever shunned someone close to them and how they feel about it.

  I already asked that one. I know firsthand that his family has been torn apart by this cultish practice. The response I got was a complete suppression of human emotions. I also saw the typical place the blame on the person who is no longer part of the group. "They left Jehovah. They want to sin. They want to live without rules." I got the impression that showing too much real emotion about the situation might imply a lack of faith in "God's ways". I do plan on bringing up the shunning policy again, but I imagine that's not a subject they feel very comfortable discussing with a potential convert. It certainly doesn't give the best witness about the love they have amongst themselves.
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  Black Sheep

  "... I imagine that's not a subject they feel very comfortable discussing ..."

  
  
  They are the best subjects. If he ever tries to weasel his way out of any subject, you have the right subject. Don't fall for any tricks he uses to divert your attention.
  
  
  The primary doctrine that keeps them trapped is that Jesus selected them, in 1919, to be God's sole channel in our day. Don't put that to him. Just ask questions that get him to state all of those elements. Then ask how he knows this happened in 1919. Question anything he says that doesn't make sense. Ask for proof of any claims, especially regarding dates/dating. Come back to us if you get stuck.
  
  
  Good luck
  Chris
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  Retrovirus

  I'd just add, keep the tone earnest and inquiring. Encourage chat before and after on non-religious topics.

  This is because a standard way of dealing with difficult issues is to shoot the messenger, so they need to see you as something other than an "opposer".

  Good Luck!
• 

  clarity

  ResistanceIsFutile,

  Hi, helping jw's open their eyes takes a lot of persistence ....good luck!

  JWFacts is a great help ... try this.

  http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/faithful-discreet-slave.php

  clarity
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  WontLeave

  According to JW dogma, they believe God has continuously had "an organization", even during the Dark Ages. Until the death of Jesus, it was the Jews. Then, until 1919 it was the churches. Now, it's JWs. Of course, this is utter crap, just like the Catholic Church's claim to be able to trace Popes all the way back to Peter. Similarly, if you ask a Catholic about it, they'll become indignant and insists they can, but Catholics are the only ones who believe it, just like JWs are the only ones who believe in the whole "organization" thing.

  It's just a way to enforce their idea of what the "faithful and discreet slave" of Mat 24 means. They teach there was a "governing body" in the 1st Century and this is crap, too. They teach the "faithful and discreet slave" was chosen by Jesus in 1919 and were put in charge of Christianity; wrong on both counts.

  Study doctrine with JWs but don't get caught up in their worship of the printing company, the Governing Body, or "the organization"; it's all idolatry. Do all things to the glory of God and not men or a man-made group or company. They'll start guilt-tripping you with "Who taught you the Truth tm ?" and expect you to understand they are your masters. Simply respond "God", because His Word is the source and the JWs are just messengers; "good-for-nothing slaves" (Luke 17:10) and not gods, lords, leaders, or objects to be worshiped or obeyed.

  Be careful when studying with JWs, because that's where their "Bible" study leads. Many things in their books are very biased toward the unbeliever eventually worshiping the Governing Body, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, and the Jehovah's Witnesses group as a whole. Keep an eye out for this and don't let it fool you. It is God alone you must worship (Mat 4:10).
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  Mat

  I don't think that will flummux them, but then if you don't want warning bells to ring it's probably best anyway. The answer to that to my memory is that God used individuals who opposed the established churches and tried to show how the trinity was wrong but they got silenced (and other simlar characters).

  What flummuxed me? I don't think anyone ever did present me with a question that threw me. On reflection though had anyone asked me whether my religion truly represented a God of love, and was truly united and hospitable- I would have had to say honestly that it did not (at least toward the end).

  I have managed to flummux a JW I spoke to who didn't know I was one once. It was about Isaiah 19:5 where it prophesied that the Nile will dry up, and in actual fact this has never happened in the entire of history (science has proved). The question was how could he argue that everything in God's word has come true when clearly it has not. Perhaps the context made it a good question, but that might be worth researching for later.
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  steve2

  Okay, so this nice JW has been visiting you to study their book(s) with you in the hope that you'll join up. I understand this may make you feel some connection to the JW. But honestly, why are you wanting to get them thinking beyond the limitations of their religion? That'll keep you hooked for sure and to what end?

  Paul Simon said it best when he wrote "...Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest". You cite something, they cite something back. You say, but look waht it says here, and they'll say, "Yes but look what it says over here. if I were in the same room as you guys, I'd leave and enjoy the outdoors - even if it's cold and chilly, it'd be more life-affirming that interminable arguments over chapter and verse.

  Born-in JWs are not the smartest thinkers on the block; they survive by speaking the lingo, going through the motions and largely switching off any meaningful interest or genunie curiosity about other points of view. Bamboozle them with 1919 by all means, or build a warm relationship with them or both. But, my friend, your need to even gently persuade them to think is a complete waste of your time. Move them out of your house and move on in your life....unless you've got pretty good evidence that they're questioning and daring to think for themselves...
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  Black Sheep

  Don't be so negative Steve.

  I wish someone had encouraged me to prove some of their more la la doctrines when I was a young fella.

  A Bible Study has the distinct advantage of being seen as harmless.

  If more people knew how to question JWs, rather than play Bible ping pong with them or tell them to bugger off, they would get their cages rattled more often.