wasblind said..
You have so much to look forward to
Life is a gift. Please open it up
lisaBObeesa
JoinedPosts by lisaBObeesa
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25
Need some advice...For my kids
by Jon Preston insince being out mentally and missing meetings my children mention people from the hall and i cant help but feel bad that they are missing the association.
my daughters are 4 and 2 and we live in a small town with not a whole lot to do.
what activities did you do with your kids?
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lisaBObeesa
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14
East of Eden & Other Great Books
by SecretHeart11 ingiven my new, unincumbered state of mind, i am rereading a few favourites and ones i haven't read before.
i'm reading east of eden again and have hey, nostradomus!
and 1984 next on the list (never read it!).
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lisaBObeesa
Ah, East of Eden...such a beautiful book. Steinbeck is my favorite author.
I recommend Every Man Dies Alone by Hans Fallada
http://www.amazon.com/Every-Man-Dies-Alone-Novel/dp/1935554042
It is the story of Germans living in Germany under Hitler who want to resist the Natzi government, but to do so would mean death and an end to their resistance. They try to devise a way to secretly resist and encourage others to resist. The unbelievable control of the the government and the fear of stepping out of line reminds on of the novel 1984 and of course, of the Jehovah's Witnesses organization.
The book was writen by a German who lived through that time and is a story based on a couple he knew. This is a really great book that makes you think about many things.
From the New Yorker:
Fallada wrote this novel in twenty-four days in 1947, the last year of his life; he was addicted to drugs and alcohol, and had just been released from a Nazi insane asylum. The story is based on that of an actual working-class Berlin couple who conducted a three-year resistance campaign against the Nazis, by leaving anonymous postcards at random locations around the city. The book has the suspense of a John le Carré novel, and offers a visceral, chilling portrait of the distrust that permeated everyday German life during the war. Especially interesting are the details that show how Nazi-run charities and labor organizations monitored and made public the degree to which individuals supported or eschewed their cause. The novel shows how acts that at the time might have seemed “ridiculously small,” “discreet,” and “out of the way” could have profound and lasting meaning.
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SECRET SIGN FOR FADERS
by Bob_NC infaders need a secret sign to use at the khall.
the thought came to me after reading replies to datadogs post on stopping singing at the meetings.. i can suggest a few secret signs for faders to use and to look for at the khall, but it would be better that current meeting attenders make suggestions here.
if readers on this site can agree to a secret sign to use at the meetings, just imagine the power that would have at your kingdom hall.
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lisaBObeesa
"Are you a friend of Ray?" (as in Ray Franz) for the secret signal to see if someone is awake... I saw this idea on a thread a few weeks ago and think it was a great idea. Wish I could remember who posted it...
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What do you think attracts new ones to the JW organization now?
by cultBgone inthis is an offshoot from the jws then and now thread...it made me wonder what exactly people find attractive about the cult today?
why are they joining?
any thoughts?.
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lisaBObeesa
"What do you think attracts new ones to the JW organization now?"
emeth said:
i mention a few
they dont kill eachother in wars
Whenever I hear this statement, the first thing that pops into my mind is “They don’t kill each other in wars….so are they ok with killing OTHER people in wars?” The answer is of course not, I know...
But I just wonder why the statement isn’t just “they don’t kill other human beings in wars.” It is kind of odd that war is bad because you would have to kill a fellow JW, not because killing fellow human beings is wrong.
The whole thing amounts to rather unimpressive pre-conventional morality from what is supposed to be the MOST virtuous, just, moral and loving religious group on the planet.
they dont give in to authorian regimes
Well, they did in Mexico in the 60’s.
Plus, an examination of the history of the JWs shows they are willing to compromise to authoriatian regimes as well as to groupls like the United Nations and they will do it just to get a library card. They don't seem to take their beliefs very seriously when they compromise them for such small things. They can't be attracting new converts based on this item.
they are united , are taught the same and act the same everywhere on this planet
How is this a good and healthy thing? Human beings come in all kinds, a product of different mixes of DNA and environment that GOD himself gave us. If God wanted us all to think exactly the same and act exactly the same He would have given us all the exact same DNA/envirnonments.
But He didn't. He made us different. With our own brains.
This whole argument that the JWs are the right religion because everybody is taught and acts exactly the same makes no sense whatsoever.
God didn’t make robots, He made people. Diverse, colorful, interesting people who have unique ways of looking at and behaving in the world.
I would never want to be part of a group that tried to stifle what God gave us.
they help eachother in times and situation of need
Again with the “each other” thing. Who cares if they help eachother! Everybody helps members of their own group. What about helping OTHER people?
And again we see simple pre-conventional morality from what is supposed to be the MOST moral religious group of the planet.
They think the moral reasoning of a seven year old that they use makes them superior to all other relgions in the world. It doesn't.
And it is not very attrative, either.
they give you their stuff and time for free
The only thing JWs give for free is their time and labor to the WTBTS, and the only thing the WTBTS gives away is their printed recruiting propaganda to the public.
Get back to me when JWs give their time or their money to a real charity that actually gives things like food/clothing/shelter to people in need. Get back to me when JWs give ANYTHING to ANYBODY other than the Organization that they worship.
If giving stuff and time is what attracts you to a church, there are uncountable churches to join that really give their stuff and time for free AND they give it to people who need it, not to a huge corporation who will use it to print more recruiting propogada that does NOTHING to help anyone but the Org itself.
they are extremely organized
so are other Churches.
they are honest (for example at circuit assemblies i always leave my bag with photo and video camera, my tablet and wallet at my seat and that impressed the interested ones that accompany me to those meetings)
Jehovah's Witnesses are honest... unless you ask them any of the following questions, in which case they LIE:
1) Do you shun former members?
2) Does your religion require you to shun former members?
3) Are you free to leave your religion at any time with no punishment at all?
4) Does your religion have a hierarchy of command/power structure, or is everyone equal?
everyone is equal
See above.
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Research on legal implications of group shunning
by BreathoftheIndianNose inhey everyone!
i haven't posted here in a while, over a year i think.
just goes to show where i'm at in the recovery stage.
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lisaBObeesa
saving another thread here -doesn't deal with topic of the discipline of non members, but does talk about legal issues and DF-
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55
Research on legal implications of group shunning
by BreathoftheIndianNose inhey everyone!
i haven't posted here in a while, over a year i think.
just goes to show where i'm at in the recovery stage.
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lisaBObeesa
Surely though, if you are a non-member, you have DA'd at least.
No, only members of the Jehovah's Witnesses "DA" themselves. No one else in the world can or would "DA" from the Jehovah's Witnesses but members of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
"DA" is a Jehovah's Witness proceedure, label, announcement, and punishment.
A person has a right to become simply a non-member, like every other non-jw walking down the street. Non members do not participate in JW proceedures, and are not subject to JW discipline. Non members do not "DA". They can't "DA" because they are non members.
The Org would like you to think you don't have that right.
(this is not legal advice, consult an attorney. this is how I am interpreting a few court cases I ran across, as well as posts here on this board over the years from people who wrote such letters and some of whom did consult attorneys.)
Their claim is you are free to go, and they will not discipline you, once you have DA'd.
Yes, they would claim this. They claim DA is nothing but an announcement that you have left the church. In reality the announcement is exactly the same punishment given to DF people..the announcment "so-and-so is no longer a Jehovah's Witness" This punishment described by the watchtower as "severe" and "the strongest form of discipline." http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2007045
If the announcement is discipline when you are DF, then the exact same announcement is discipline when you DA. this needs to be established and exposed far and wide.
If I am a non member, they have no right to discipline me (announce me DA or DF).
But, with their carefully phrased articles, what Law have they broken ?
If they discipline me when I am a non member, they are in effect refusing to let me be a non member and are violating my first amendment right to freedom of religion.
(Again, consult an attorney. This is my interpretation of the cases I read about.)
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Research on legal implications of group shunning
by BreathoftheIndianNose inhey everyone!
i haven't posted here in a while, over a year i think.
just goes to show where i'm at in the recovery stage.
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lisaBObeesa
Shunning is 'legal' in as much as it cannot be regulated by law. Regardless of whom is giving the directives, individuals have the right to choose whether or not to follow those directives. Off course, in most cases that also measn they are shunned if they don't follow the directives but that individual has a choice and on the other side, a person cannot be "forced" to interact with someone they don't "want" to interact with regardless of the reasoning behind that.
Again, there is no question that shunning is legal. It is legal.
That is not the question being raised.
It is the 1st amendment right of a church to discipline its own members as it sees fit.
The question being raised here is: does a church have the right to discipline a non member?
Some court cases presented here seem to say no, a church can only discipline its members, and has no right to discipline non members.
I also have a 1st amendment right right to stop being a member of a church any time I want.
If I choose to stop being a member of a church(not DA or DF, just send a legal letter like the examples posted), then at that moment the church no longer has a right to discipline me, a non member.
^^this is the argument being made. Not that shunning is illegal.
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Research on legal implications of group shunning
by BreathoftheIndianNose inhey everyone!
i haven't posted here in a while, over a year i think.
just goes to show where i'm at in the recovery stage.
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lisaBObeesa
-also saving here for reference-
Legal Dangers from Church Discipline
http://www.truthmagazine.com/archives/volume28/GOT028307.html
Article from a church's perspective, protecting themselves from lawsuits...doesn't really address non members much, but covers other relevant topics
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Research on legal implications of group shunning
by BreathoftheIndianNose inhey everyone!
i haven't posted here in a while, over a year i think.
just goes to show where i'm at in the recovery stage.
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lisaBObeesa
Another interesting post from the interwebs...Info posted about how to leave a church with abusive discipline while minimizing the damage the church can do to your reputation. Saving here for reference.
(When you are announced no longer a jw it is being announced to the cong is being told you are guilty of the sin of being an unrepentant sinner, so I think this info applies.)
link:
small quote from the page....
How to Resign
Three years ago, I spoke with a nationally well-known attorney who informed me that the only power that churches have is the ability to throw members out of the church. They can do that with very little recrimination. But, they could have some legal trouble announcing a member's supposed "sins" to the full church if said member employs the following procedure. What we are about to discuss has been “run by” legal experts. However, TWW states categorically that this should not be taken to mean it is an official legal position. Please seek advice of an attorney for an authorized opinion.
The Steps:
Resign your church membership prior to the all-church announcement. Better yet, before harsh discipline is applied.
Keep your lips sealed.
Do not tell anyone that you are going to take the following action. You do not want Sally Sycophant (we all know a few of these) to run to the pastors and report this, giving them an opportunity quickly schedule the all church gossip session.
The Letter:
We give special thanks to Arce, who knows a thing or two, for sending this format to TWW
Send the following letter, return receipt requested (and tracking, in case the Post Office lets them have it without returning the card).
Put the return receipt number on the heading of the letter (you can get the form with the number at the PO, before typing the letter).
Date
To the pastors and administrators at ____________ church.
This letter is notice that I am not longer a member [attendee] at _______________ church, effective with the date of this letter.
As a non-member, I am no longer subject to any of your discipline as of (date on letter). After (date on letter), any publication, notice, or speaking about me by any church staff or recognized church leader is no longer authorized by me.
Any negative remark or statement about me, any encouragement that people shun me, or any action other than deleting me from your records will be evaluated for possible legal action for libel or other tort claim against the individuals involved and the organization.
If any one asks about me, refer them to me, any other action may result in a tort claim against you.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED. You must desist from any act that may harm my reputation or me or come between me and other persons of my acquaintance. Legal action may ensue.
Sincerely,
____________You must mail the letter on the date on the letter and they will not receive it for a couple of days thereafter.
Keep a copy, print out the tracking showing when it was delivered, keep the green card or, if it is refused, the returned letter (they are legally responsible for the content if they refuse it).
Document any response or any failure to comply. If they (leadership or staff) call, listen but do not talk, except to say “I disagree” if they make a false statement about you.
Document the conversation.
Go to an attorney if they proceed to trash your reputation or that of your business.
Do not respond by trashing the organization.
The rest of the post is also interesting and other posts on the same blog have more info about what they authors call legal 'contracts' made between members and churches agreeing to follow church rules and to accept discipline, etc.
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Text of Guy Pierce Memorial
by Red Piller inguy pierce was born into a large mormon family.
his mother and father were jack mormons, sympathetic to the mormon faith but not ved/ active.
afterworld war ll, his parents moved from utah to california, where guy was born on november 6, l934.when he was eight years old, his grandmother wanted three of her grandchildren to be baptized in the mormon church.
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lisaBObeesa
Wait. Is this for real?