this forum offers the stories of folks with as many variations as there are folks and a “great crowd” of lurkers whose stories may never be offered.
i am an outsider with a broken heart for some insiders that i love more than they know.
after reading nearly every “apostate” book ever written, lurking, being worn out searching the wt cd, i have come to an idea that i present for your appraisal..
tornapart thanks again for your answer. Your answer is helpful. Seems you have been able to do something
the other people who responded have not, have your family and Jesus. I will resist the temptation to get more nosy
in your business. Probably most JW families and most elders would not let you slide.
Perry Great web site I downloaded the pdf for talking to a JW
this forum offers the stories of folks with as many variations as there are folks and a “great crowd” of lurkers whose stories may never be offered.
i am an outsider with a broken heart for some insiders that i love more than they know.
after reading nearly every “apostate” book ever written, lurking, being worn out searching the wt cd, i have come to an idea that i present for your appraisal..
this forum offers the stories of folks with as many variations as there are folks and a “great crowd” of lurkers whose stories may never be offered.
i am an outsider with a broken heart for some insiders that i love more than they know.
after reading nearly every “apostate” book ever written, lurking, being worn out searching the wt cd, i have come to an idea that i present for your appraisal..
thanks for all the comments, you all agree it seems.
tornapart I have come to believe the simple Gospel of Christ that goes against the WT teachings and conforms more to mainstream christianity. I can no longer preach the 'different kind of gospel' that WT teaches. If I go to meetings it's simply for the sake of my family. They still believe in the WT teachings (even if not all) and find they can still follow Christ in their own way. It's hard to try and live the way Christ taught when so much goes against WT teachings but I'm sure he understands You mind if I ask about your situation? Does your family know that you believe the "simple gospel" i.e. the pre 1914 gospel?
Diogenesister thanks for the kind words. I am wondering if Diogenes the Cynic is your identity? :)
findTheLost thanks. (worth more than $0.02) I am wondering if "find the lost" is your identity?
this forum offers the stories of folks with as many variations as there are folks and a “great crowd” of lurkers whose stories may never be offered.
i am an outsider with a broken heart for some insiders that i love more than they know.
after reading nearly every “apostate” book ever written, lurking, being worn out searching the wt cd, i have come to an idea that i present for your appraisal..
this forum offers the stories of folks with as many variations as there are folks and a “great crowd” of lurkers whose stories may never be offered.
i am an outsider with a broken heart for some insiders that i love more than they know.
after reading nearly every “apostate” book ever written, lurking, being worn out searching the wt cd, i have come to an idea that i present for your appraisal..
This forum offers the stories of folks with as many variations as there are folks and a “great crowd” of lurkers whose stories may never be offered. I am an outsider with a broken heart for some insiders that I love more than they know. After reading nearly every “apostate” book ever written, lurking, being worn out searching the WT CD, I have come to an idea that I present for your appraisal.
Just so you know where I am coming from, I accept the simple gospel as told in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 in that I receive, stand on, am saved by the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. The good news by definition is the invitation to personally accept the person and work of Jesus. The Watchtower says:
*** w 90 8/1 p. 24 The Romans Get the Best of News ***
The Law was perfect. The problem was that imperfect people could not obey the Law. “We know that the Law is spiritual,” wrote Paul, “but I am fleshly, sold under sin.” An imperfect human cannot keep God’s perfect Law and so is condemned by it. How wonderful, then, that “those in union with Christ Jesus have no condemnation”! Anointed Christians have been adopted by spirit to be God’s sons. Jehovah’s spirit helps them to wrestle with the imperfections of the flesh. “Who will file accusation against God’s chosen ones? God is the One who declares them righteous.” (Romans 7:14; 8:1, 33) Nothing can separate them from God’s love.
I don’t see a single character in any word in this paragraph to disagree with. I have never set foot in a Kingdom hall, never had a “Bible study” and this paragraph has my belief to a T. But, there is no such thing as an un-anointed Christian. Saying some Christians are anointed is like saying some triangles have three sides.
*** it-1 p. 212 Atonement ***
Justice satisfied by propitiation. Still, justice required satisfaction. Man, though created perfect, fell from that state through sin and thus Adam and his offspring came under God’s condemnation. Justice and fidelity to principles of righteousness necessitated that God execute the sentence of his law against disobedient Adam. But love moved God to purpose a substitutional arrangement whereby justice would be satisfied, and yet without any violation of justice, repentant offspring of sinner Adam could be forgiven and could achieve peace with God. (Col 1:19-23) Therefore, Jehovah “sent forth his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins.” (1Jo 4:10; Heb 2:17) Propitiation is that which makes propitious, or favorable. Jesus’ propitiatory sacrifice removes the reason for God to condemn a human creature and makes possible the extending to him of God’s favor and mercy. This propitiation removes the charge of sin and the resulting condemnation to death in the case of spiritual Israel and all others availing themselves of it.—1Jo 2:1, 2; Ro 6:23.
The idea of substitution is prominent in certain Biblical texts relating to atonement. For instance, Paul observed that “Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures” (1Co 15:3), and that “Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us [Jews], because it is written: ‘Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake.’”
(Ga 3:13; De 21:23) Peter commented: “He himself bore our sins in his own body upon the stake, in order that we might be done with sins and live to righteousness. And ‘by his stripes you were healed.’” (1Pe 2:24; Isa 53:5) Peter also wrote: “Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God.”—1Pe 3:18.
Again this is the gospel as plain as can be. Except there is a problem with one little clause. “all others availing themselves of it”
How do people avail themselves of it? Well these “all others” cannot get the atonement directly from Jesus because
*** w72 9/1 p. 520 A Death That Brings Gain ***
they are not counted as ‘impaled with Christ’
*** w51 11/15 p. 685 par. 35 Baptism for Salvation and Fire Baptism ***
They are not baptized into Christ’s death So
*** w68 7/1 p. 406 par. 16 Part 2—Empowering a Priesthood for Effectual Service ***
after his entry into the heavens, and after he was authorized by the heavenly Father to turn his attention again to the earth, he did send forth from his heavenly throne many more blessings of life-giving knowledge and understanding, first to his body of priests yet on earth, and then through them to the “other sheep,” a great crowd of whom are now joining in pure worship of the Most High.—John 10:16 So
*** w83 8/15 p. 23 par. 14 United Fruit Bearers ***
While the “other sheep” are not branches of the Abrahamic-covenant “olive tree” or of “the true vine,” Christ Jesus, they must prove themselves to be Christ’s disciples. Like all the anointed Christian “branches,” they must “keep bearing much fruit.” This they do by producing Christlike qualities of the new personality, including “the fruitage of the spirit.” (Galatians 5:22, 23; Matthew 28:19, 20; Colossians 3:5-14) But to be really fruitful they give active expression to such qualities by sharing in the work of preaching “this good news.” (Matthew 24:14) Just as the anointed “branches” of the “true vine” must remain in union with Christ, the “other sheep” must remain in close union with “the faithful and discreet slave,” Christ’s anointed “brothers.” Only thus can they hope to ‘inherit the Kingdom prepared for them from the founding of the world.’—Matthew 25:31-40.
This Watchtower was printed in 1983. In 1983 the slave was all the 144,000. In 2016 the slave has been changed to just the Governing body. Is that not a big deal? If they are wrong about their very own identity maybe they are wrong about your identity. Maybe this is still true and valid statement for you.
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He that remains in union with me, and I in union with him, this one bears much fruit; because apart from me you can do nothing at all.”
Consider how easy it is to see someone else’s problem:
*** w56 5/15 p. 294 Is the Queenship of Mary Scriptural? ***
The pope expressed firm confidence that through Mary “mankind will little by little progress along this way of salvation and she will guide the rulers of nations and the hearts of their peoples toward concord and charity.”—Our Sunday Visitor, October 17, 1954
As an outsider I see many reasons to never be an insider and I stand to be schooled by people who post here as you have lived it. The people I love who are insiders are actually living well. It is my observation that different congregations / Elder bodies are as varied as the people who attend, much like this forum. Not being qualified, I would not propose advise to anyone, however is this not worth considering? Maybe the gospel Jesus preached is still true?
*** w67 12/15 p. 753 par. 1 What Now Distinguishes the Good News to Be Preached ***
What vital thing has now been added to the good news of the kingdom of God that Jesus Christ and his zealous apostles used to preach nineteen hundred years ago?
My job has me in my car where I listen to talk radio. I heard an interview with a lady who was a holocaust survivor. During the interview she gave a description like you would expect with her whole family starving to death leaving her a young orphan. As the half hour was up and the music started she said wait I need to say one more thing. “This is not who I am”. “This is just a bad thing that happened to me”. She did not have time to elaborate but I turned the radio off because I had just heard Wisdom. I repeat, if they don’t know who they are, how the hell do they fancy they know who you are?
Maybe the gospel Jesus offered is still being offered. Maybe leaving the organization is not the only option. The problem with families is they have people in them and there is not a one size fits all situation but here is where I invite your comment. If you have not rejected God, only the Watchtower version, what is wrong with simply accepting the gospel Jesus offered and saying so.
Would you have to leave to do that? I have more questions but that one for today.
does that sh*t eating grin and that middlefinger have any message for the friends ?.
*** yb80 pp.
62-63 france ***.
Does that sh*t eating grin and that middlefinger have any message for the friends ?
*** yb80 pp. 62-63 France ***
“Question: Have the ancient worthies returned?
“Answer: Certainly they have not returned. No one has seen them, and it would be foolish to make such an announcement. It was stated in the ‘Millions’ book that we might reasonably expect them to return shortly after 1925, but this was merely an expressed opinion.”
"propositional thought hinges on logic and formality.
narrative thought is the reverse.
its concrete, imagistic, personally convincing, and emotional.
"Propositional thought hinges on logic and formality. Narrative thought is the reverse. It’s concrete, imagistic, personally convincing, and emotional. And it’s strong."
Interesting magazine article depicting the potency of narrative to persuade.
Many people who post on the board have been persuaded by a false story.
I
logic and emotion can contradict but not necessarily. Like they say read the whole thing.
http://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/how-stories-deceive?utm_content=bufferd4658&
*** w74 10/1 pp.
607-608 questions from readers ***.
romans 6:7 reads: for he who has died has been acquitted from his sin.
Check out recognized translations. Paul was talking about being freed from the power of sin that controls a person, much like an addiction controls someone. He wasn't talking about how to make it into the millennial kingdom.
Hello Ding, Thanks for your comment and I agree with you.
2 Corinthians 5:20 (NIV) 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
Regenerated people enjoy many benefits from being reconciled to God, one is being "freed from sin" (KJV), my personal favorite.
Romans 6:7 ὁ γὰρ ἀποθανὼν δεδικαίωται ἀπὸ τῆς ἁμαρτίας. One Lexicon I read says this: dikaio,: to cause someone to be in a proper or right relation with someone else - 'to put right with, to cause to be in a right relationship with.' Some scholars, however, interpret dikaio,w, dikai,wsij, and dikaiosu,nh in the following contexts as meaning 'forensic righteousness,' that it to say, the act of being declared righteous on the basis of Christ's atoning ministry, but it would seem more probable that Paul uses these expressions in the context of the covenant relation rather than in the context of legal procedures.
Covenant relationship / reconciliation / forgiveness / Legal status, it's all good. BTW I went from pre-millennial to amillennial years ago, but that another post.
New International Version
because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
New Living Translation
For when we died with Christ we were set free from the power of sin.
English Standard Version
For one who has died has been set free from sin.
Berean Study Bible
For anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
Berean Literal Bible
For the one having died has been freed from sin.
New American Standard Bible
for he who has died is freed from sin.
King James Bible
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
since a person who has died is freed from sin's claims.
International Standard Version
For the person who has died has been freed from sin.
NET Bible
(For someone who has died has been freed from sin.)
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For whoever is dead has been freed from sin.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
The person who has died has been freed from sin.
New American Standard 1977
for he who has died is freed from sin.
Jubilee Bible 2000
For he that is dead is justified from sin.
King James 2000 Bible
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
American King James Version
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
American Standard Version
for he that hath died is justified from sin.
Douay-Rheims Bible
For he that is dead is justified from sin.
Darby Bible Translation
For he that has died is justified from sin.
English Revised Version
for he that hath died is justified from sin.
Webster's Bible Translation
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Weymouth New Testament
for he who has paid the penalty of death stands absolved from his sin.
World English Bible
For he who has died has been freed from sin.
Young's Literal Translation
for he who hath died hath been set free from the sin.
*** w74 10/1 pp.
607-608 questions from readers ***.
romans 6:7 reads: for he who has died has been acquitted from his sin.
*** w74 10/1 pp. 607-608 Questions From Readers ***
● Will those who are raised to life on earth still be imperfect and afflicted with Adamic sin, since Romans 6:7 says that a person “who has died has been acquitted from his sin”?—U.S.A.
Romans 6:7 reads: “For he who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” A consideration of the context shows that the apostle Paul was discussing spirit-anointed Christians alive at that time. While still alive, they had been baptized into Christ Jesus and received the valid prospect of heavenly life. In order to be anointed with holy spirit and accepted as spiritual sons of God, they had to die to their former course in life as imperfect humans, have their sins forgiven by God and have human perfection imputed to them. Saying some Christians are spirit-anointed is like saying some triangles have 3 sides.
But in making this comment with regard to anointed Christians, Paul was drawing on a natural and actual illustration. In its broad application, it could correctly be said that one who has died has been acquitted from sin. No actually that is incorrect. There is no broad application, only the narrow one.
Death, not the dying process in itself, is the full payment for sin. The Bible says: “The wages sin pays is death.” (Rom. 6:23) This means that when a person has died his sinful record no longer stands against him. And were it not for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and God’s purpose to resurrect the person, he would never live again. Still, he would remain acquitted from sin, as God would not repeatedly reexamine his case and then sentence him to other kinds of punishment for his sin. They are correct in so far as they say the only payment for sin is death. Romans 6:23 is rightly given. Where is any scripture supporting a “broad application” of Romans 6?
This might be compared to the situation of a man serving a prison term for some criminal act. Once he has served his time of imprisonment, he is not repeatedly retried and punished for the same crime. Descendants of the first Adam are guilty of just that, being, by birth, descendants of the first Adam.
“naturally children of wrath”
Now in the case of one raised from the dead to earthly life, the sinful record for which he was condemned to death no longer stands against him. Like one released from imprisonment, he has the opportunity to conform to law. Nevertheless, the resurrected one is still the same human. His death produced no change in him as to personality and sinful inclinations. By resurrection he did not become a perfect human, free from all effects of sin and imperfection inherited from Adam. He was not declared righteous because of dying. As in the case of an ex-convict, he must put forth diligent effort not to succumb to his fleshly weaknesses. He must start in, as it were, where he left off in life and take full advantage of God’s provisions for everlasting life on earth.
Because of the life they lived before their death, some people will have a stronger leaning toward wrongdoing than others. The Bible does, in fact, say: “There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” (Acts 24:15) So those who were unrighteous at their death will be unrighteous at their resurrection to earthly life.
Is it because of their nature? Will they be naturally children of wrath? (Ephesians 2:3) . . .we were naturally children of wrath even as the rest. . .
So while acquitting one from a record of sin, death produces no change in what one is as a person. Those raised to life on earth are the same individuals that died, descendants of sinner Adam. They are imperfect humans, just as were those raised by Elijah, Elisha, Jesus Christ, Peter and Paul centuries ago. The death and resurrection of individuals in the past did not transform them into perfect persons able to live forever. So with those raised on earth in the New Order, it is only their availing themselves of the sin-atoning provisions of Jesus’ sacrifice that shields them from death. Oh if only this could happen now. Wait, it can.
In the Bible book of Revelation, God’s provision for life, including the sin-atoning arrangement, is portrayed symbolically as a river of water of life. (Rev. 22:1, 2) So it is by ‘drinking’ from this ‘river’ that the resurrected ones are gradually liberated from all sinful tendencies and become perfect humans.
Not until they are perfect humans does Jehovah God view them as having come to life in the fullest sense. It is evidently for this reason that the Bible says of those raised to life on earth that they ‘do not come to life until the end of the thousand years’ of Christ’s Kingdom rule, during which rule the benefits of his atoning sacrifice will be applied to humankind.—Rev. 20:5.
The water of life, like the bread of life, is simply life. It was offered to the Samaritan woman by Jacobs well in John 4:10. She took the offer along with most of her hometown. The offer of a new nature is open still and flows from the same source. A misunderstanding of Romans 6:7 seems to be the premise underlying the fresh, brand new information. The definition of a Christian is a person who is regenerated by the Holy Spirit. To merely “still be imperfect and afflicted with Adamic sin” is to be cursed. To be descended from the first Adam is to be naturally children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3). The people who are solely descended from the first Adam are going to be resurrected to reproaches [and] to indefinitely lasting abhorrence (Daniel 12:2) in other words cursed for eternity. It’s because of their birth, their nature. A person must be descended from the Last Adam for the curse to be lifted. In the analogy above of a man serving a prison term, they correctly say he is not subject to double jeopardy. The Fifth Amendment to the Constitution provides that protection in the USA. The gospel provides that protection like so: A sinner, for example me, goes to trial, pleads guilty, is found guilty, is sentenced and the sentence is death. The sentence is administered on the back of Jesus. No double jeopardy.
(Romans 6:1-7) 6 Consequently, what shall we say? Shall we continue in sin, that undeserved kindness may abound? 2 Never may that happen! Seeing that we died with reference to sin, how shall we keep on living any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that, just as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, we also should likewise walk in a newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall certainly also be [united with him in the likeness] of his resurrection; 6 because we know that our old personality was impaled with [him], that our sinful body might be made inactive, that we should no longer go on being slaves to sin. 7 For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin.
(John 5:24) . . .he does not come into judgment . . .
(1 Peter 2:24) . . .He himself bore our sins in his own body upon the stake, in order that we might be done with sins. . .
(Galatians 3:13) . . .Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us. . .
(2 Corinthians 5:21) . . .The one who did not know sin he made to be sin for us, that we might become God’s righteousness by means of him.
*** w67 12/15 p. 753 par.
1 what now distinguishes the good news to be preached ***.
what vital thing has now been added to the good news of the kingdom of god that jesus christ and his zealous apostles used to preach nineteen hundred years ago?
*** w67 12/15 p. 753 par. 1 What Now Distinguishes the Good News to Be Preached ***
What vital thing has now been added to the good news of the kingdom of God that Jesus Christ and his zealous apostles used to preach nineteen hundred years ago?
*** w67 12/15 p. 754 par. 8 What Now Distinguishes the Good News to Be Preached ***
Since the publishing of that new, up-to-date understanding of the prophetic words of Jesus Christ more and more evidence has piled up in the world events and conditions and in the experience of the International Bible Students to prove that God’s Messianic kingdom was indeed born in the heavens at the due time in 1914 and that “this good news of the kingdom” means the fresh, brand-new information that tells of God’s established kingdom.
