Posts by losthobbit

8

God of the Paradox

by dark angle in

hi all!

i found this vid amusing.. god of the paradoxhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7jclyinery.

Why don't JWs do much in the way of charity work?

by ilikecheese in

jw
friends

so i argue with the boyfriend a lot about the fact that i think charitable work is every bit as important as preaching when it comes to serving god.

every church i've ever gone to has some sort of community outreach, if not several outreaches, that have little or nothing to do with preaching.

and i made the point that if these people know you're affiliated with a church, they'll think a little more kindly about christians, too, which would help in the whole witnessing arena.

losthobbit

Just a thought...

Is it better to:

1. Give to beggars (those who don't work / can't work)?

2. Buy stuff (effectively giving to those who work / own companies)?

3. Spend your time and / or money trying to find and promote a fair system that could benefit everyone?

My preference is 3 is best, then 1, then 2.

38

Have you ever successfully persuaded anyone?

by losthobbit in

i've had many conversations with religious people and am always surprised that i am never able to get anyone to put their programmed beliefs aside and process the logic that proves how unreasonable their doctrines are.. so, i'm wondering, have you ever successfully persuaded someone to change their mind about something that they had been brainwashed with, and if so, how did you do it?.

thanks in advance .

losthobbit

Hi Tammy and Shelby

I think we just have different understandings of the word punishment, because I actually completely agree with you. I think the bible gets punishment and revenge muddled up. Anyway, I won't carry on about that, because I really agree with what you're saying there :)

With regard to what you've both written about faith not being the same as religion... it's another case of words having a different meaning for different people. I would define religion as having faith, or belief in a deity. You may use different words for different things, but it seems we would agree more if we had the same understanding of those words :)

Shelby, I'd like to comment on what you wrote previously: "I am not sure that you can understand, grasp, or perceive MY method... as I would explain him to you. Even more... I am often left with no choice but to assume you don't even WANT to... won't even condescend to entertain the possibilities, let alone try to understand them. My experience has been that, while dear ones like you want folks to at least CONSIDER what you're offering... you're no longer willing to even reciprocate and CONSIDER what I might share with you."

This is actually a pretty good way to persuade me, because I've previously written about my love for open mindedness. What you wrote here I take as a challenge, to try to prove to you that I do try to be open minded. I spent many years trying to find answers to my questions by praying, and asking for other peoples' opinions.

I do, however need to say that logic and rational thinking are universal, and apply to everything. I've spoken to people before about logic problems in the bible, and they simply respond with something like "We don't understand God... his thinking is above our thinking." That's all fine, but at some point beforehand you have to use very accurate logic or rational arguments to decide that you can actually trust your source of information about God.

So Shelby, I would expect the following from your method: that it is either very obviously logical, or that it has been tried and tested and proven. If not, maybe it is pointless telling me, but please go ahead and explain to me the method which you used to determine your point of view, and I will do my best to try and see it through your eyes.

When I was a Christian, I had my methods by which I determined my faith. I was embarrassed to talk to people about my beliefs, and after many years I realized that the reason was because I had not been honest with myself, because my methods were flawed.

Peace to you too :)

Stephen

38

Have you ever successfully persuaded anyone?

by losthobbit in

i've had many conversations with religious people and am always surprised that i am never able to get anyone to put their programmed beliefs aside and process the logic that proves how unreasonable their doctrines are.. so, i'm wondering, have you ever successfully persuaded someone to change their mind about something that they had been brainwashed with, and if so, how did you do it?.

thanks in advance .

losthobbit

Hi Tammy

You wrote "Speaking personally, I need Christ and His help to be at peace. To forgive, to show mercy, to love friends and enemies, to show patience and forebearance against those who do me wrong. That is what HE does for me. I trust in His mercy, his forgiveness, and his promises. Christ is the Truth of God. Not religion."

For me, I understand forgiveness because I try to think rationally.

Let me explain:

- Revenge is mainly about being unwilling to control anger. This is typically irrational.

- Punishment is about keeping order, and not necessarily inflicting pain, but pain can be a byproduct. This is typically rational.

I understand, and love people simply because I am human, and I know it's right. I don't need Christ or God to tell me that.

I dream of a time when we will all be able to gather together to learn about love and forgiveness and to socialize, without the necessity to believe in any deities. For me the closest thing to that is the Zeitgeist Movement, which I have spoken about before.

38

Have you ever successfully persuaded anyone?

by losthobbit in

i've had many conversations with religious people and am always surprised that i am never able to get anyone to put their programmed beliefs aside and process the logic that proves how unreasonable their doctrines are.. so, i'm wondering, have you ever successfully persuaded someone to change their mind about something that they had been brainwashed with, and if so, how did you do it?.

thanks in advance .

losthobbit

Thanks for your thoughts, Tammy, Hofer, SA and Rebel8. Lots to think about here :)

38

Have you ever successfully persuaded anyone?

by losthobbit in

i've had many conversations with religious people and am always surprised that i am never able to get anyone to put their programmed beliefs aside and process the logic that proves how unreasonable their doctrines are.. so, i'm wondering, have you ever successfully persuaded someone to change their mind about something that they had been brainwashed with, and if so, how did you do it?.

thanks in advance .

losthobbit

AGuest... thanks for your comments.

I realize that what I said may not have been very tactful. Sometimes out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks. I could guess that most athiests would consider themselves rational and religious people irrational, but never admit it out loud.

It's a bit like people who worship a god they believe is going to send me to hell, but they will never admit to my face that they think I should burn forever.

Perhaps I should explain something about rational, or logical thinking... what you need to understand are tried and tested things like the scientific method and Mathematics. There is a fixed process to rational thought. Irrational thinking comes about when these processes are not adhered to. Rational thinking is like building a wall. You start with the foundational bricks, simple pieces of undisputed knowledge, and build onto those. If any brick in the wall is disproved, everything above it falls down.

Irrational thinking is more like spagetti.

I'll summarize what it says on Wikipedia about the scientific method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method):

Define a question
Gather information and resources (observe)
Form an explanatory hypothesis
Perform an experiment and collect data, testing the hypothesis
Analyze the data
Interpret the data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis
Publish results
Retest (frequently done by other scientists)

Consider applying this to your religion: Form hypothesis, try to disprove them, try to get your friends to disprove them. Once you have something solid that no-one's able to disprove, you can lay the brick, and use it as a foundation for the next brick. Your goal is to try to get the wall to fall down.

The scientific method is used to build cars, planes, medicine, etc.

Homeopathic medicine is something which has not passed the scientific method. For this reason it's called "alternative medicine", or in other words, "a substance that does nothing."

Here's a simple test for a religion... I'll use the scientific method, and put petrol in my car. Someone else can empty their fuel tank and pray... and we'll see who finishes the race first. There was a story in the bible where the prophet Elijah challenges the prophets of Baal to light the altar and Elijah wins. Strange that no-one can get the same results these days.

38

Have you ever successfully persuaded anyone?

by losthobbit in

i've had many conversations with religious people and am always surprised that i am never able to get anyone to put their programmed beliefs aside and process the logic that proves how unreasonable their doctrines are.. so, i'm wondering, have you ever successfully persuaded someone to change their mind about something that they had been brainwashed with, and if so, how did you do it?.

thanks in advance .

losthobbit

Thanks for the question, Tammy:

What is your purpose in your attempts to persuade someone to change their mind?

There are two groups of reasons... one is personal, and the other is idealistic.

My personal reasons:

- I hate lies

- My mother cries every time I talk to her about religion, because she thinks I am going to hell. I also think she loves Jesus more than she loves my dad. I feel like I can't really talk to her about anything that matters, because the only thing that matters to her is Jesus.

- My wife also cried when I explained to her that I am no longer a Christian. She too, wants me to end up in heaven with her.

- When I was a Christian I struggled whenever I prayed, because I hated the idea that my friends and family would end up in hell. I took extreme measures to try and help people to learn about Jesus, because I didn't want them to end up in hell. I don't want my friends to have the same burden.

- I'm too scared to even tell anyone else in my family that I am no longer religious. They knew me when I was religious, and they won't understand.

My idealistic reasons:

- I want the world to be united, not divided by religious grouping.

- I love this planet, and the people on it. I want people to focus on real solutions to the world's problems, not believe that there's some god out there who's allowing wars, global warming and starvation for a good reason and who will fix all the problems in his own time (or that he'll destroy the planet anyway).

- You can probably guess a few reasons why I would want to persuade JW's that they're learning lies.

38

Have you ever successfully persuaded anyone?

by losthobbit in

i've had many conversations with religious people and am always surprised that i am never able to get anyone to put their programmed beliefs aside and process the logic that proves how unreasonable their doctrines are.. so, i'm wondering, have you ever successfully persuaded someone to change their mind about something that they had been brainwashed with, and if so, how did you do it?.

thanks in advance .

losthobbit

Thanks for your thoughts, Tammy :)

5

Christian Pastor claims "sex demons" made him molest girl....are you sick of "the Devil made me do it?"

by Witness 007 in

this born again minister met up with a teenage girl in the congregation, gave her some alcoholic drinks then raped her...he then beat her and set her on fire to cover his crime, but she survived horribly disfigured.

during the police interview he claimed he was "under the influence of sex demons.".

i'm so over dumb ass christians putting the blame on satan for there crimes...is this the 1500 century or what?.

losthobbit

what? you don't believe in demon possession? you're all heretics! burn them!

38

Have you ever successfully persuaded anyone?

by losthobbit in

i've had many conversations with religious people and am always surprised that i am never able to get anyone to put their programmed beliefs aside and process the logic that proves how unreasonable their doctrines are.. so, i'm wondering, have you ever successfully persuaded someone to change their mind about something that they had been brainwashed with, and if so, how did you do it?.

thanks in advance .

losthobbit

Hi Tammy

Thanks for your excellent question:

You have already placed all the religious into the category of irrational, and you, yourself, into the category of rational. What makes you know anything more or better than anyone else - religious or otherwise? Why should anyone listen to you?

Tammy, I used to be extremely religious. About thirteen years ago a man suggested to me that I read a free online book, called "Software for your brain". This is not an anti-religion book... it's an objective book which explains what open mindedness and closed mindedness is, and how to become more open minded.

I read the book. Some of it sank in, and some of it didn't. The most important thing I learned from the book was the concept of "Cognitive Dissonance". That is when you hear something new, or not inline with your beliefs, and your brain immediately rejects it. The book teaches you how to enable yourself to consider new information, instead of rejecting it.

Over the next few years I started questioning my religion, but instead of realizing that I was questioning flawed concepts I presumed that my understanding was flawed. Because of this I started making up a whole bunch of excuses for the problems in my religion.

It was only after about ten years that I decided to have a chat with a preacher. He pointed out that the excuses I had made up contradicted the bible. Althought it was not his intention, he helped me realize that I should not make excuses for the questions that I have. I had many questions at this point, about things in the bible that made no sense to me at all.

In an attempt to be open minded I wrote many emails to religious people, asking them about my questions. Some of these emails took many hours to write. I also read everything they sent me, and everything they suggested that I read, trying desperately to find answers to my questions.

I put ten of my top questions in a video on YouTube, and received hundreds of views and about a hundred responses. Not a single one of my questions was answered in a way that makes sense to me.

The only reason I have been able to come up with for having so many unanswered questions about contradictions and illogical problems in the bible is the simple fact that the bible contains many lies or mistakes.

People simply believe the bible, and do not see the mistakes, because they have been brainwashed to believe that the bible is somehow perfect and does not contain any.

Many religious people believe that the bible is entirely true, but they do not have any rational reason to believe this. They may even use arguments like "it says that it's true".

I could go on and on about this, but anyone with strong cognitive dissonance will reject everything that I say that contradicts with their beliefs, so it's pointless to write any more.

This is why I asked the question, "Have you ever successfully persuaded anyone?" What makes people listen to reason?