QC, I don't quite understand you. If you accept all we see around us is designed, why is the design so bad? I like those pictures too, but that's only a part of reality. Cantleave's pics show the other ugly side as well.
Knowsnothing
JoinedPosts by Knowsnothing
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371
Design or Non-Design, finally we know, Darwin's Doubt
by QC inif you want to read the definitive explanation on fossils and how life arrived its covered in darwins doubt, by s.c. meyer.
this is a game changer.
the bomb!.
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Board of bitterness
by 1009 ini always was a critical jw, now df and agnost.
but still this religion fascinates me.
in my eyes most jw are very sincere, but dumb sheep.. this board is filled with ex-jw.
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Knowsnothing
Adamah stated earlier: " The eisegesis in Acts rests upon a foundation of their far-greater misunderstanding of Genesis 9, which is based on a mistranslation which resulted from confusing a blessing with an obligation." Is it ethically wrong to misunderstand something? Is it ethically wrong to believe that what the Biblical commands on the subject of blood should be applied to the medical use as well? And if you believe that, is it ethically wrong to abstain from blood? And if you are a religious leader, is it ethically wrong to teach what you believe?
Is it wrong to teach jihad? That if you blow yourself and others up for the cause of your religious movement, you will gain eternal life in heaven?
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Design or Non-Design, finally we know, Darwin's Doubt
by QC inif you want to read the definitive explanation on fossils and how life arrived its covered in darwins doubt, by s.c. meyer.
this is a game changer.
the bomb!.
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Knowsnothing
If the universe was designed, it is a huge waste of space. To have only one inhabitable planet...
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4 sincere questions for those that believe there is a God
by S EIGHT ingreetings.. allow me to set the questions up.. after 30 years in the truth (i'm now late 40's) and having established the truth about the truth i consider myself agnostic going on atheist.. i struggle to believe there is a god when i observe life yet i try to convince myself there must be something out there.. here's the basis of my question: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23583116 .
in summary, 2 young boys have been killed by a snake that escaped from a pet store in canada.
it made it's way up through the ventilation into the apartment they were staying in.
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Knowsnothing
Hi Laika. You said, " If humankind has the resources to end hunger and then opts not to, why is it fair to criticise others for doing what they assume is the same thing?"
Well you see, I don't think the issue is as black and white as that. It is true that we have the power to feed a few billion more people than exist today. The problem is there are many things that can hold one back from such a thing, not to mention that in some instances our efforts will be futile.
For example, suppose I wanted to feed the hungry baby boy you see in the picture. I presume that he is in Africa. Well, I live in the US, and to get him food from here takes considerable expense. Most food perishes within a time limit, so depending on the food I send, I may also have to refrigerate it or process it so as to extend it's expiration date. Then there is the transportation, either via air or water. When it arrives, how can I guarantee someone else will not take it, for the simple fact so many are already starving?
Well then, you might just object and say, "send more food! What is the problem?" The problem is I as an individual have limited resources of my own, and cannot send much more. I need to form a coalition of some sort, in order to send more food and hopefully achieve my goal of ending hunger at least for that one child. Well, I finally manage to feed the child. As he grows, so too does his family, because he becomes a father of his own. There are now more mouths to feed depending on the same resources... the same amount of food has to be divided up more and more, to the disadvantage of the individual.
Now add to that situation the scarcity of food and water in Africa, along with its poor administration and the ignorance of the populace in general, and my efforts are simply going to be a drop in the bucket. Millions upon millions will still go thirsty or hungry.
In any case, let's look at the bigger picture here and see where the problem stems. Resources are limited. Humans like to reproduce and when resources are relatively plentiful, death and illness are low. This means the population spikes exponentially like it has this past century. Even though for a time you will have plenty of people eating plentifully, food production fueled by the limited resource (oil) that sparked this exponential growth will plateau, it will level off, and then MANY more will be hungry and will starve. There will probably even be war over food shortages.
One looks at this situation and thinks to oneself, if God exists, he has doomed humanity to failure. He put us in a small planet, in a vastly, enormously huge universe that as we know is extremely hostile to life, with limited resources, and with innate desires to reproduce extensively. A designer that has infinite resources and power would not limit their creation to futility. This is one of the reasons I don't believe. It makes no sense, and indeed, there seems to be no evidence of a Creator intervening in our affairs.
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You atheist really annoyed me
by confusedandalone inwhen i first came to this site.
whenever i would try to talk about somethign from the bible that the jw's got wrong or reason on a scripture that had so much feeling you would stomp all over it.
talking about "flying spaghetti gods" and laugh at what seemed to be my expense and then leave the thread never to return and add any substance.
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Knowsnothing
Religion, belief and philosophy have a place in humanity, but in the quest for truth about the universe and reality, I don't really think there is another game in town like science. Even so, we should understand science's limitations, which is where the afformentioned domains come in. When science does not know the answer and cannot cure the disease, these fill in the void, even if they are not objectively true.
I've heard this many times, but science explains the how, not the why. Even though I myself am not religious, I understand where religious people are coming from. They might not have the objective truth, but they have a community of like-minded believers, they have a hope of something better in the future, they have a reason to get up in the morning. Some people just can't do without religion, and so to each his own.
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The Small Quiet Voice
by Satanus indo you hear it?
not talking about voices.
i'm talking about that little niggling thing, on the side.
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Knowsnothing
You mean our conscience? It's good to meditate about life and where you are going periodically, regardless of if you are religious or not.
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Who has experienced a REAL demonic incident?
by Monsieur inhas anybody here experienced a bonafide, real, true incident in whicy 'demons' actually interacted with you or did something 'supernatural' that left you convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that satan and his demons exist??.
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Knowsnothing
Why aren't demon attacks universal? Not saying it can't happen, just curious.
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May 2013 Awake"No sooner had I finished praying and there was a nock at my door"
by trujw ini guess you need a door for god to answer your prayers.. .
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Knowsnothing
The article is just another example of manipulation of the JW’s mind. They are trying to infer that god sent the women a JW to the door. It amazes me that the most powerful, loving, kind god of the all the universe would answer this middle class well to do woman’s prayer while ignoring the cries of innocent children. If cherry picking stories was a sport JW’s would have the gold medal. - trujw
Hmmm... maybe this bible quote will clear things up?
Matthew 26:11
The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me.
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Refuting Robin Collins argument for fine-tuning
by bohm ini have lately tried to rethink my position on gods existence and tried to be more critical of the atheistic position.
this has partly been spurned by my impression objections to theistic arguments often rely on the same errors atheist accuse theists of, for instance using the shotgun-method (i.e.
picking 3 faults with all premises in the arguments) or building conclusion on a web of arguments and, when considering a particular argument, supporting it by other parts of the web or simply not addressing the argument very well.. as part of this i came across collins 1999 article on fine-tuning.
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Knowsnothing
An excerpt from section 5.2:
As Richard Swinburne has argued (2004, pp. 99–106), since God is perfectly good,
omniscient, omnipotent, and perfectly free, the only motivation God has for bringing about
one state of affairs instead of another is its relative (probable) contribution to the overall
moral and aesthetic value of reality.37 Simple forms of life, such as bacteria, do not seem
in and of themselves to contribute to the overall moral value of reality, although it is possible
that they might contribute to its overall aesthetic value. On the other hand, embodied
moral agents seem to allow for the realization of unique types of value. Hence, it is this
form of life that is most relevant for arguing that ~P(Lpc|k′ & T) << 1, and thus the most
relevant for the fine-tuning argument.Just by reading this, it's hard to not be dismissive and simply call this bullshit, but I will try to make the effort. This is essentially arguing specifically that because humans exist and are moral agents, they add relevance to the fine-tuning argument.
The interesting thing about morality in a physical universe, and especially for humans on earth (since we are the only moral agents we know of), is that it is based on economy, whether we like it or not. Some examples to clarify: the rich giving to the poor, and the attempt to cure diseases and help those who suffer can be seen as moral goods, yet the fact remains that is so because resources are not limitless, and so there always the haves and the have-nots. What other morality do we know of, except the one tied in with the physical, mental, and emotional well-being of humans? Again, I am forced to invoke the problem of evil, but in a special classification. The problem of evil is inherent in a physical, limited universe! Let's be more specific. The planet earth, upon which humans live on, and the only known planet known thus far to sustain life, is very limited in its vital resources, further exacerbating the problem. Resources are not limitless, hence perpetual cycle of the haves and the have-nots, and the only way to attain any so called moral transaction!
Without scarcity, without sacrifice, without pain and evil, there seems to be no basis for morality, at least as far as this Christian theist version goes. So, essentially the argument is pain and evil must exist in order for morality to exist, and that that in no way invalidates a fine-tuned universe? Well, that just opens up another whole can of worms. What makes Collin's assertions valid over any other theistic model? Haven't we observed that religion is wholly subjective and interpretive?
Bohm, in regards to this comment:
With regard to the initial low-entropic state of the early universe: I think the most important thing to realize is what physics actually governed that phase of the universe is largely unknown, not just in terms of conditions but the actual laws. My guess is largely uninformed, but i think that to get any progress on the question one would need first to get an accurate description of how gravity work on those levels, and thats properly decades in the future.
As that is Collin's strongest argument, and the initial conditions of the universe are still largely unknown, it is yet another appeal to the god of the gaps. So for me, it appears his strongest argument is not strong at all.
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Why Worry About Stopping Comets?
by AGuest ingiven their relative size (usually), maybe we should learn to stop meteors first:.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/16/world/europe/meteorite-fragments-are-said-to-rain-down-on-siberia.html?_r=0.
interesting.. a doulos of christ,.
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Knowsnothing
Why not just let god intervene? Surely he wouldn't allow earth to be destroyed, one of his crowning creations?