Posts by doubtful

175

Does the Christian message fall apart without a literal interpretation of Genesis?

by nicolaou in

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what's the point of jesus if adam & eve did not 'fall' and condemn us all to sin?.

doubtful

That's what I'm confronted with right now.

Creation Story - BS

Noah's Flood - BS

Tower of Babel story - BS

Exodus story - BS

39

NEED HELP Proving that 607 BC is false and list of flip-flops

by doubtful in

this post is going to seem erratic to some, but i'm afraid it's the best i can do.

i can only write on this board during the spare moments i have when my mother is not in the home.

so i need to get as much info in per thread as possible given the time constraints.

I'm afraid that approach won't work with my mother. I've tried that tactic before, and she only responds with the usual though-suspending line of "wait on Jehovah for things you don't understand at the present moment" line, or something along those lines. I've had more sucess with her when I fed her facts too hard to ignore, and appeared adamant and confident in my assertion.

39

NEED HELP Proving that 607 BC is false and list of flip-flops

by doubtful in

this post is going to seem erratic to some, but i'm afraid it's the best i can do.

i can only write on this board during the spare moments i have when my mother is not in the home.

so i need to get as much info in per thread as possible given the time constraints.

doubtful

Thank you guys.. (and gals). Please keep it coming..I'll be able to post more on this thread in a couple of days hopefully.

Anything on lists of biblical errors,contradictions, etc?

FDS doctrine? Who was the slave before Russell? etc..

Two prophecies in the bible that would seem to indicate a divine source are the 70 weeks prophecy and the arrival of Jesus, as well as the naming of Cyrus in the book of Isaiah. Yet on the other hand, there are prophecies such as the 40 year desolation of Egypt which never materialized. How is this explained? And are there any other biblical prophecies which were not fulfilled?

39

NEED HELP Proving that 607 BC is false and list of flip-flops

by doubtful in

this post is going to seem erratic to some, but i'm afraid it's the best i can do.

i can only write on this board during the spare moments i have when my mother is not in the home.

so i need to get as much info in per thread as possible given the time constraints.

doubtful

This post is going to seem erratic to some, but I'm afraid it's the best I can do. I can only write on this board during the spare moments I have when my mother is not in the home. So I need to get as much info in per thread as possible given the time constraints. I can't always regularly check the board either, except for a few minutes a day at the most if I'm lucky (oops can't use that word...I mean "fortunate"...oops that means the same thing as "lucky" lol).

I've made some progress with her regarding 607 BC not being the actual date for the fall of Jerusalem, but she still insists that we're living in the last days, and she still believes that the Governing Body are God's mouthpiece, although she always has a selective memory about certain claims they make. I need my argument to be clearly articulated, linear, easy to follow, and hole proof. I need evidence for all the secular sources used to establish that Jerusalem DID not fall in 607 BC. As of now, all I have are claims that I make to her verbally based on the reasearch I've done, but if she asks for sources, I obviously can't point her to an "apostate" source. She also buys into the "light getting brighter" excuse for changed doctrine. Yet the light getting brighter excuse cannot be used for doctrinal flip-flops. So I need a list of flip-flops, along with watchtower/publication articles as sources for those flip-flops. I also need to establish the errancy of the bible. So if anyone has a list of conclusive self-contradictions, copyist errors, numerical mistakes, logistical or temporal impossibilites, and unfillfilled bible prophecies (like the 40 year desolation of Egypt), that would help tremendously as well. I would also like to know if there is a Watchtower publication (name and date of article) which clearly states that there has always existed a "faithful and discreet slave class that continually passed on "spiritual food" from one generation to the next", as that will aid in establishing that Russell did not receive spiritual food from any predecessor and thus undermine the credibility of the FDS doctrine.

So in summary...I need help with the following: (Please consider this a joint research project, or for those of you who already have the information readily available, if you share it, I would be most thankful.)

List of secular evidence proving that 607 BC is a false date (the cunieforms, Ptoelmy, business records, etc...-but I need sources or website names that I can reference that can't be traced to an apostate website)
List of doctrinal flip-flops and revised interpretations made only subsequent to the failure of predictions that never materialized as well as major doctrinal reversals or changes
List of Biblical errors (unfulfilled prophecies, logistical and numerical impossibilities, so-called "copyists errors", internal self-contradictions, etc)
Information on the FDS doctrine - ie. - Watchtower quote or quotes which state that the FDS has always existed since the time of Jesus...and has always provided spiritual food to each succeeding generation

I know this is a lot to ask, but perhaps if this thread takes off, it will also provide a wealth of information to all future lurkers and newbies as well. Your help is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

13

What are the people at Bethel like? What's the GB like?

by doubtful in

i can't even count the number of times i've heard people say how incredibly humble and down-to-earth and caring the exectuives at bethel are.

i've had one first person encounter with a gb member..i forget his name although i would be able to identify him in a picture.

he did seem genuinely nice.

doubtful

Nope. I'm on the west coast.

13

What are the people at Bethel like? What's the GB like?

by doubtful in

i can't even count the number of times i've heard people say how incredibly humble and down-to-earth and caring the exectuives at bethel are.

i've had one first person encounter with a gb member..i forget his name although i would be able to identify him in a picture.

he did seem genuinely nice.

doubtful

I can't even count the number of times I've heard people say how incredibly humble and down-to-earth and caring the exectuives at Bethel are. I've had one first person encounter with a GB member..i forget his name although I would be able to identify him in a picture. He did seem genuinely nice. Yet, I also know that these people are on a serious power trip, and they are intentionally decietful, even if they feel the ends justify the means. They routinely obfuscate the truth, smudge numbers, and take quotes out of contexts to mislead the minds of their pawns. They've received an innumerable quanity of letters regarding the invalidity of the 1914 doctrine by now, but stubbornly refuse to discard it out of pride or because they know it will undermine both their credibility, their authority, and their stranglehold over their followers, because without 1914, we have no clue when Jesus started to reign, or if he ever will, and thus no basis for believing that we're in the last days or that the Watchtower was specially chosen by Jesus to be his earthly representative. Without the "last days" mentality, there is no sense of urgency. No incentive to get out there on knock on doors, forgoe an education or a career. This leads to more satisfaction with one's current station in life and inevitably leads to a loss of emotional and psychological dependence on the Watchtower.

So, I know these men can't just be delusional saints who sincerely believe all the crap they teach. They can't be so stupid as to still believe in 607-1914. They just know they're stuck between a rock and a hard place, and they choose to perpetuate a lie.

So, for those of you former Bethelites or travelling overseers who have had substantial interaction with the head honchos over at Brooklyn, can you objectively tell me what these men are like? Do they walk around with an air of superiority about them? Do you get the impression that they think they know everything, and that they're father figures and we're all helpless children?

And here's a big one. Is it true that the GB members live in penthouse suites in Brooklyn, or that they at least did until recently? I have heard this claim before, but I've never confirmed it.

I also often hear a lot of accusations made about Rutherford's character, his alleged promiscuity and alcoholism, but I've never seen any concrete proof that would serve to convince any JW of the veracity of the claim. I'm looking for ammunition here.

I've also been told that there are a lot of homosexuals at Bethel, known as NPGs (non-practicing gays). Is this true?

And what are most Bethalites like? Are they incredibly satisfied, zealous and happy (ie - uber brainwashed), or are most of them tired, disillusioned, and envious of others with money and freedom, and simply stay for fear of having to support themselves out in the cold harsh world outside of the confines of the factory?

So for those of you who have been at Bethel, please provide some perspective.

15

Did the Israelites lay eggs like reptiles?

by doubtful in

i'm a newbie bible skeptic, but whenever i read the exodus account, i always had trouble swallowing the idea that a family of 70 people could possibly mushroom into a population of anywhere between 2-3 million in a matter of 215 years - (per the watchtower's timeline).

as i said before, math is not my strong suit, but here i will show my calculations regarding the possibility of this account, using the society's timeline.

i will ignore the fact that the bible says the nation of israel was in bondage in egypt for 400 years, and will instead use the 215 year timeframe, also because this harmonizes with the four generations from levi to moses.

doubtful

@Leo - No. We are going to pretend that not a single Hebrew child ever died before reaching adulthood and fathering 10 children of his own who also never died. So, no room for infant mortality in these calculations. If anything, we can assume that each couple had 20 children, and then allow for the infant mortality factor to kick in.

@J.Hofer - I certainly thought about the concubinage issue. 1 man could very well have had 3 wives, thus trebling the figures. Yet, that does not change the total number of women. There's still a finite number of women in their society. So it doesn't matter if 1 man impregnates 3 women, or if each woman has her own husband to herself that impregnates her. Furthermore, you could say that for every 1 man who has 5 or 6 wives, that translates into 5 or 6 men who have no wives, or put another way - for every additional wife that one man has, that's one less wife for another man. So, it doesn't add to the total population. There's almost always a proportionate amount of men:women in a population. It's always right around 50/50.

Secondly, this does not take into account the low probability of so many Israelite men having multiple wives. Consider their circumstances. Even in ancient Israel, only the wealthy could afford to have multiple wives. They weren't free you know. They had needs and they needed to eat. So, it was costly to support multiple wives. These Hebrews in Egypt were supposed to be slaves. Propertyless, second-class citizens without rights. Do you think they would have had the sufficient economic wherewithal to support upwards of 3 wives, and dozens of children?

@saltyoldlady - If there were 600,000 Israelite men (according to their tribes, so they were not Egyptians) of military age only, then that means there must have been a corresponding number of Israelite women. Add 600,000 more. So, the total number of adults between the ages of 20-50 is now at 1.2 million, and this would only include the Hebrews. This amount does not include the "vast mixed company" of Egyptians, nor does it include all the rest of the Hebrews between the ages of 0-20 (which there would have been a lot of considering that each generation would had to have been growing exponentially with an ever expanding base), nor does it include all of the elderly, which there surely must have been a lot of, as according to the Exodus account, people still had remarkably long life-spans - Moses, Levi, Jacob, Aaron, Miriam, etc - all living past 100 years of age.

In any event, the intial 1.2 million figure alone far surpasses the total possible number of Hebrews for this time. Once you account for the children and adolescents, the elderly, and the vast mixed company of Egyptians, you're looking at a stupendous figure that represents a number many times greater than the highest possible allowance for the real size of their population.

19

So sad..... the damaged ones.....

by liz_south in

recently...my nephew confided that he doesn't want to go to the meetings anymore.

he told his parents.

reply from dad - typical party line - "live in our house - attend the meetings - or leave".

doubtful

I am one of these damaged ones. My mom has been out of town visiting my aunt this past week, and it's allowed me the privacy to be able to do my research. This is the first time I've come to these realizations and been honest with myself. But at the same, I can't accept this new reality. It's so earth-shattering, as if my previous existence never was, as if someone just pulled the carpet out from under my feet. I feel like I'm drowning.

And I'm seriously contemplating suicide. If I'm going to die in 50 or 60 years anyway, and there's no life after that, then what difference does it make if I die now or 50 years from now? I can't imagine a life without my mother. And I can't tell her all that I know, because if she heard it all, even she might be "stumbled" - aka - leave the org. But then she would have no comfort, no hope. I think I'm better off leaving her to her delusion. This is the first time I've truly understood the old cliche that "ignorance is bliss". Her life has been a series of tragedies, and if she knew that this was all there was, she might very well lose her sanity.

But on the other hand, if I don't tell her why I left, she'll just think it was because I wanted to go off "into the world" and have fun and have sex for the "temporary enjoyment of sin". And she'll never know the real reasons why. That will cheapen her idea of me. She'll think me traitorous, weak, cowardly, and debased. And she'll abide by the disfellowshipping doctrine and refuse to speak with me.

I have two mid-terms tomorrow that I was supposed to spend the last 5 days studying for, and I haven't even cracked the books open, because I've been on this forum and online researching night and day. I haven't slept in 36 hours, and I feel such inner pain and anguish, and yet oddly I haven't shed a tear.

I'm giving serious thought to suicide. This isn't a cry for attention. I doubt I'll really go through with it, but it seems like a very viable option right now. I'm broken. I'm afraid.

15

Did the Israelites lay eggs like reptiles?

by doubtful in

i'm a newbie bible skeptic, but whenever i read the exodus account, i always had trouble swallowing the idea that a family of 70 people could possibly mushroom into a population of anywhere between 2-3 million in a matter of 215 years - (per the watchtower's timeline).

as i said before, math is not my strong suit, but here i will show my calculations regarding the possibility of this account, using the society's timeline.

i will ignore the fact that the bible says the nation of israel was in bondage in egypt for 400 years, and will instead use the 215 year timeframe, also because this harmonizes with the four generations from levi to moses.

doubtful

I'm a newbie bible skeptic, but whenever I read the Exodus account, I always had trouble swallowing the idea that a family of 70 people could possibly mushroom into a population of anywhere between 2-3 Million in a matter of 215 years - (per the Watchtower's timeline). As I said before, math is not my strong suit, but here I will show my calculations regarding the possibility of this account, using the society's timeline. I will ignore the fact that the bible says the nation of Israel was in bondage in Egypt for 400 years, and will instead use the 215 year timeframe, also because this harmonizes with the four generations from Levi to Moses.

In my calculations, I've tried to be extremely generous in my assumptions, as I desire to give the biblical account every benefit of the doubt, owing to the fact that one "can never underestimate the power of the holy spirit". So..the following are my assumptions and methods of calculation:

The first generation begins with 70 people
To begin calculating numbers for the next generation, we must divide the number of the previous generation by 2, as it takes 2 people (1 male and 1 female) to make a baby
I have assumed that with "God's blessing" each Israelite couple had an average of 10 children, ALL of whom lived to become parents to 10 children of their own
I have assumed that each generation lasts 40 years, as the bible says. Also, because I figure that Israelite couples began reproducing, and did so viritually non-stop, between the ages of 20 and 40
I have also generously disregarded the fact that these people were supposed to have been slaves, forced to work in horrible conditions doing "back-breaking" labor their whole lives. This would have imposed a reduction on their life-spans and probably their fertility rates. Likewise, as slaves they would have been very poor, and their economic situation would not have allowed for them to feed themselves and 10 children. But let's pretend these remarkably resiliant people managed to do it anyway.
With each subsequent generation, I've subtracted the numbers from the previous ones to account for mortality. There were of course some "overlapping" generations, but nobody lived for the entire 215 year period, so one could only argue that at most, the second to last generation should be included in the final figure.

So here we go.

Generation 1: 70 people

Generation 2: 350 people (40 years)

Generation 3: 1,575 people (80 years)

Generation 4: 7,087 people (120 years)

Generation 5: 31,893 people (160 years)

Generation 6: 143,000 people (200 years)

Generation 7: 645,000 people (240 years) --- an extra 25 years or a quarter of a century thrown in there for good measure

(x/2) * 10 = Y

So there you have it. Even with the most liberal of estimates, and even after a series of generous allowances, the largest number I could come up with for the entire population, including men, women and children, was a whopping 645,000 people. Yet, the bible says that there were 600,000 MEN of military age alone! Surely there would have been a corresponding number of females in the population, unless the last generation consisted of only males which would have presented some serious problems. Add in the females between the ages of 20-50, and you have approximately an additional 600,000 people, which brings the total to 1.2 million. Then let's not forget all the children ages 0-20, and all the men and women ages 50-to geriatric range. We're looking at least another million people right there. So now, with a real lowball figure, we're at a total of 2.2 million people, along with a "vast mixed company" of people of other nationalities. This represents a population 4-5 times larger than it could have possibly been!

So this leads us to one of two conclusions:

A) - My methodology for the calculations is wrong. If someone could please point out any errors in my math or in my process of inference, in the spirit of cooperativeness, I will graciously examine your rebuttal.

B) The Israelites temporarily became a semi-reptilian species, and rather than giving birth to one child at a time in the typical mammalian fashion, the females instead laid eggs, and hundreds of Hebrew babies hatched at one time. Thus, the sons of Israel grew at a "very extraordinary rate" as the bible says.

46

Pray for our Brothers in Japan

by doubtful in

this is my first post.

the first portion is my story, and toward the end, you will find the section pertinent to the title of this thread.

(starting with the portion in bold print).

doubtful

Interested one - Lol, I knew I was spelling that wrong, but it just didn't "click" at the time! Haha.

@knowsnothing - Yes, I come on here precisely because here we are free to think for ourselves and express our own views, rather than have our words circumscribed the way they are in the BORG!