if you just want the juicy details where i leave, i'll make disclaimer where it begins, if you just want to know what happened with the elders and organization after i realized it wasn't true, i'll mark that seperately.
we didn't do jack shit in service, or in the congregation.
maybe this was how jehovah came about?
Bravo Jonathan. You're story was very interesting and well written, it kept my attention to the end. It also reminded me of the primary attribute that leads individuals to leave the society: intellectual curiosity.
And your discussion with your brother reminded me of my relatives. I've had the same debate concerning Noah's Ark. Many in my family are very rational people, but they throw logic totally out of the window when discussing religion.
this earlier topic [why do it feel bad about my children leaving jw religion?
] is what causes me to ask this question:.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/208031/1/why-do-i-feel-bad-about-my-children-leaving-the-jw-religion.
Any measure of higher 'morality' among JWs is simply due to the organization being a high control group. I find much of the 'good' is usually due to fear and possible shunning. That's why when *some* leave they go crazy, living some hedonistic 'worldly' life. Freedom comes with responsibility.
Yeah, I have known some Witnesses that might either be in jail or rehab if it wasn't for the religion. I've seen this with born again Christians and other religions as well. The religion serves as a 'control' for their impulses. But does that make the religion true?
I readily acknowledge some of the 'good' among the witnesses. Where I am from - the south - there is much more racial diversity in the Kingdom Halls than in more mainstream churches. But does that make the religion true?
DesirousOfChange, you point out that you want to see changes in the organization. My view is the whole thing is built on a false foundation. I've come to this conclusion after reading the uncensored history of the org and the experiences of many who have served at Bethel. To me this is what it comes down to, despite any 'good' among the individuals.
And as others pointed to, there is good in many people. In my experience the people I've met in academia, who were usually not religious at all, were some of the best people I've known.
for many years i was sincerely perplexed when someone told me they believed in the evolution theory or were an atheist.
i never understood how someone could ignore all the evidence for intelligent design and overlook all the holes in the evolution theory.
for example, the human biology clock is synced with the rotation of the earth, the earth is the perfect distance away from the sun to sustain life, the earth has an ozone layer to protect us from the sun's radiation, the earth naturally produces fruits and vegetables to be used for food, our bodies produce enzymes to break down the fruits and vegetables so it can nourish us, the earth produces water and oxygen, etc.
I've now learned that the vast majority of people who are Atheist or promote the evolution theory are people who had bad experiences with religion. These would be people who've been ex-communicated by friends or family members (shunning), molested or abused by a clergy member, a victim of religious violence such as Islamic terrorism, or religious hatred such as what a homosexual receives.
I've experienced none of the above. Sure, the occasional confrontation or overzealous witness, but nothing particularly nasty. No, I left the religion of my youth not due to any 'bad experience', but due to the lack of consistency in the religion itself. And one of the worst offenders was the How Did We Get Here - By Evolution or Creation book. As I began to learn real science, I realized how many flaws this publication had.
You begin your post with some fallacious 'evidence' for intelligent design (which has been successfully debunked by other posters above). Then your post devolves into an ad hominem attack against those who accept the evidence for evolution, suggesting that their motives are based off of emotion.
I'll let you in on something: On some level I still 'believe' that there is some higher power. Not necessarily the God of the Bible, but something. I have the intellectual honesty to admit that this belief is based off of emotion rather than logic.
On the other hand, my acceptance of evolution is entirely based off of logic. At first, it seemed counter-intuitive and contradicted everything I was raised to believe. But as I read and discovered all of the evidence supporting it, I could not deny it any longer.
I encourage you to read up on evolution, a good place to start would be the book Why Evolution is True. Another good book is The Counter-Creationism Handbook which counters fallacious arguments by creationists, including the Watchtower's publication.
there are two parts to this topic you can read one or the other or both if you want, i just figured i post this for differents ones who might being going thru what i am going thru i tried to write this as quick as possible so everything i am posting here is not to offend anyone i know everyone has the own opinions on different things so you can disagree or agree, but this is where i stand.
sorry for any spelling errors or grammar issues up front.
my story .
I'll echo what others have said. jgnat was right on the money. Deservingone26, you remind me of one of my cousins who has been in and out of the org his whole life. He sees life "outside of the truth" as wild partying, drugs and sex. So that's what he does, lol. Then he is overcome with guilt and returns.
Truth is you never even left the witnesses. Even when out, you're living their narrow concept of what a 'worldly' person is. When one truly leaves it is a freeing of the mind, not just some permission to indulge in some hedonistic fantasy.
Like my cousin, it is probably no use trying to convince you using logic. Not everyone is ready for the red pill (see the matrix if you don't know). In life there are leaders and followers (by leader I mean one who thinks for his/her self). It's up to you to determine which one you are.
over the christmas holidays, a witness dropped off a whole bag full of magizines, etc for me (like they had been saving up my order for the last 3 years at the hall).
i briefly perused them and then dumped them in the recycling bin.
one of the issues that caught my eye and offended me was a magazine that showed a bunch of angry white guys (they looked like labor union leaders) carrying signs- the headline was "athiests on the march".
This one arrived on my doorstep about a month ago. I'm guessing some witness heard about my 'independent thinking' and thought it would be an ideal issue for me (for the record I don't consider myself an atheist, just a freethinker who does not accept conventional ideas about God and religion).
The article is laughable. The caricature of atheists as sign wielding, rabid maniacs is hilarious. It reminds me of the Evolution book that shows scientists as chin stroking guys with beards and pipes. These cartoon stereotypes show that the WT writers don't get out much.
I've just read Richard Dawkin's "The God Delusion". The idea Fundamentalists have of Dawkins as this bomb throwing, religion hating maniac is way overblown. "The God Delusion" is the most eloquent case for atheism that I've ever read. His measured criticism of religion is very insightful as well. I still do not agree with him on everything, but I came away from the book more enlightened (unlike that Awake article).
The ex-JW Atheist Geek wrote some good articles on "Atheists on the March". Check them out:
http://www.atheistgeeknews.com/from-the-awake-magazine-is-atheism-on-the-march-1546.htm
im just curious about a couple things:.
1. most of you seem to be pretty satisfied that you left the the witness world but now that your gone what drives you now?
what makes you excited about life?
1. What drives me now is pursuit of knowledge and art. Deservingone26, you seem to be having the classic existential crisis that usually happens in younger years or during a transitional period. What helped me through this was higher education. Learning many different things in different subjects may give you some direction and meaning in life. Also travel and meeting new people may help as well.
2. I don't post here that much, but certainly understand why many do. This forum is interesting and addictive! I understand your thoughts, when I began to peruse the many ex-jw sites on the net, my initial reaction was that many people seemed to be stuck in anger and resentment at the organization. But this is understandable due to the hold that it has in many peoples' lives. I was fortunate to only work my way up to unbaptized publisher. I thank GOD I never got baptized. It was the best decision I ever made (I was close to doing it when I was about 15!). Those baptized ones that I know that leave have a much more traumatic experience, of course, and a forum like this is very beneficial to them.
3. I would say that I believe in the Einsteinian version of God. That is I think of God as the wonder in nature and the cosmos. Bible literalism is a dead end to me, too much of it contradicts science and is too simplistic in my opinion. The God of the Old Testament is a brutish deity that is evidently a product of a primitive and brutish time. I still find much good in the teachings of Jesus, however. There's much I admire in eastern philosophies like Buddhism and Taoism also. I don't really feel a need to go to 'church', to me spirituality is a personal thing.
Hang in there, Deservingone26. Realize that there are countless options available to you now. That can be scary, but also very exciting.
either from the bible, nostradamas or by some other seer?.
I'm with sinis on this one. It's cyclical. Every culture has had their 'prophecies' of 'The End.' 'The End' has come many times: Revolutions, plagues, floods, earthquakes, crumbling civilizations, etc. Then it starts over. The cycle of death and rebirth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1icjkwzeee.
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azmgkrkj5la.
That's a funny cartoon mrsjones!
This is a fight BroDan probably regrets picking. Like most creation/evolution debates, it is evident that the scientific facts outpace tired arguments and pseudoscience. Most of BroDan's arguments are recycled creationist/WTS points that have been debunked a million time over.
The fossil/genetic evidence for evolution is now overwhelming.
BroDan, equating belief in evolution with atheism is a fallacy as well. You can believe in a higher power and/or have spirituality while recognizing the scientific evidence for evolution. The two are not always mutually exclusive.
Also, your stereotype of atheists as misdirected lost souls is laughable as well. The atheists I know are some of the most content people I know. You can have purpose without believing in a divine being.
Seriously, BroDan, some of your posts rely on so many tired arguments I am wondering if they aren't satire, like the Colbert Report.
so i attended a funeral for a jw who passed away (non-"annointed) and i would have to state that although i have heard the standard funeral talk outline for dozens of funerals i've attended, i never really took the time to listen.
and my god, i was cringing.
the outline is essentially broken down like this:.
Yes, a close family member of mine died recently and it was like this. 3 minutes about the person, the rest was a giant sales pitch and talk about paradise. The whole ordeal felt cold. It even left some of my fellow JW family members, who grew up "around the truth" and went back in, bewildered. I was wondering if they ever payed attention at all.
In contrast, I attended a Catholic funeral a few years back, and it was much more human. It was actually about the person, his life and the legacy he left behind.
i'm an atheist, my wife's a jehovah's witness.
each of us knocks on your door and has something to sell to you.
it's up to you to choose.
If limited to these 2 options, I'll welcome #1. I don't see it as sad at all. From this vantage point, an individual can take a page from the existentialists and create their own meaning in life. Life is invigorating when it is yours to create. As far as dying – as someone who has had to deal with death recently, I believe that death is the crux of much religious belief – fighting against the reality that we all disintegrate. In my opinion, Eastern philosophy has a healthier approach to death – acceptance that it is the natural order of the universe.
