Good post Jon. I admit I have been guilty for being a little harsh in debates, especially political ones. It's good to keep people separate from their ideas, not just in order to respect their humanity, but to form a stronger argument that is free from cheap shots and personal attacks. I look to the Buddha as an example of boundless compassion (others may choose other examples, there are many). In Buddhism the separation of "me" and "you" is an illusion, and through compassion we realize the intimate connection between us all. Even if you're not Buddhist this way of looking at things is useful.
mindseye
JoinedPosts by mindseye
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27
For those that enjoy a good debate. Please remember to separate people from their ideas; remember their humanity.
by JonathanH inthe anonymity of the internet is both a blessing a curse for the information age, especially when it comes to debate.
when a screen is put over the person, all that you are left with are ideas in a pure form; written word that constitutes a set of ideas, reasons and thoughts.
anyone can sit and analyze and form a response at their leisure.
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The THIRST for the Totalitarian......for ALL
by Terry intotal anything is everything.. total control of you is totalitarianism.
it controls everything about you.. .
why do some crave to be thus controlled?
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mindseye
Terry wrote: Why go back to Metaphysics when Physics is the more accurate?
Metaphysics is a term that's hard to pin down, but I would argue that it shouldn't be confused with the supernatural. In a philosophical sense, physics explains how we exist, while metaphysics seeks to explain why we exist.
Supernaturalism was an attempt to explain how things worked before the scientific method was developed. Though we now know the answers to these how questions, the why questions still remain for many. This metaphysical inquiry applies to non-theological philosophies as well as theology.
Other than that point, I agree with your post.
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mindseye
LOL. Honestly, though, I think those at the top in cults don't always think it's a scam. Most of the time they've deluded themselves into thinking it's real too.
As far as the difference between a religion and a cult, the main difference is that you can leave a religion with little or no social and psychological repercussions. For instance, I attend a Buddhist temple off-and-on, and when I'm busy go long periods without attending. No one harrasses me or makes me feel bad for not going. A cult does not allow for such autonomy.
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What the Watchtower needs to do to survive.
by jwfacts indrop its teaching on paradise earth.. the primary issue facing the watchtower results from it's teaching that members will never die, but live forever on this earth in paradise.
this teaching is cause of most of the doctrinal failures, and will be its eventual demise.. the promise of never dying is one of the foremost motivations for people that join the religion, and the message of living forever in paradise is compelling.
however, it is also the watchtower's achilles heel, as it forces false predictions of the nearness of the end.
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mindseye
Paradise earth is the carrot on the stick. I don't see that doctrine changing. One thing I do notice is that the sense of urgency is gone among many witnesses. Instead of the 'end' being "just around the corner", some that I know quote: "no one knows the day or hour when these things will occur." I think the governing body may have finally learned their lesson about setting dates, and frankly most Witnesses have no idea of the history of failed prophecies. Even the 1914 generational teaching is fading away from collective memory, most gen-Y witnesses probably don't know anything about it. I'm thinking the next step is for the 144,000 teaching to be phased out as well, and then the gov body can depend on collective short-term memory to keep the religion going (and surely they hope that everyone avoids "apostate teachings" on the internet, etc.).
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Jehovah's Witnesses And The Paranormal
by Cold Steel ini understand that the jehovah's witnesses are paranoid when it comes to the paranormal.. how far do the roots of this paranoia go?
has anyone ever had any personal paranormal experiences or know of anyone who has (first hand)?.
and what are some of the more popular stories that get retold in jw circles?.
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mindseye
What I always found interesting is the JW paranoia about demons possessing antiques and other objects. I've known witnesses who have thrown out nice pieces of furniture and other valuables because they thought the objects were 'demonized.' This belief is not even biblical, there's no instance in the bible that I know of where a demon possesses an object. This belief has much more in common with 'animism', a belief that spirits are embodied in the physical world. It also had much in common with occult beliefs.
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"The Spiritual Universe" Fred Alen Wolf
by frankiespeakin inhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guvrvlapuge.
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mindseye
Great stuff. Consider it bookmarked. All this talk of the universe (and consciousness) emerging from nothing also has parallels with Buddhist and Taoist thought. And though I still think it's important not to confuse the two, quantum physics and the metaphysics of many mystic/shaman-based traditions seem to share some striking similarities.
This Wolf fella may be onto something...
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MORE HARM than GOOD
by Terry inwhy does religion often do more harm than good?.
if we love our neighbor as ourself---we must first love ourselves.. if we do to others what we would want done to us---our sense of self welfare, once again, is the criterion.. the wicked man knows how to give his own son good gifts, we are told, and god is our parent eager to do the same.. yet, religious institutions (representing god) are weighed down with judgemental practices, intrusive meddling, preoccupation with superficiality and lip service to the "greater good".. human repair is not the objective so much as human control.. .
this raises what i regard as a very important question: shouldn't the one who is weak, frail, mortal and vulnerable be the object of improvement by the living god?.
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mindseye
The biggest attempt at non-religion in history was the Soviet Union and - to a lesser degree - Red China.
Yes, and even these societies developed certain rituals, myth-making and pageantry. They even devolved into 'fundamentalism.' Same thing with the French Revolution, God was taken away but certain figures were deified instead. Even certain parts of revered individuals, like Descartes, were sought after as 'relics'.
Let's face it, being 'religious' is part of being human. One can't rip out hundreds of thousands of years worth of mythic consciousness just because we've developed the scientific method. Much of it is harmful, but it can be beneficial as well (serves as a binding social construct, has psychologicial benefits), otherwise it would not have evolved.
I don't think the issue should be whether or not the world would have been better without religion, but how to channel religion and spirituality in the right direction.
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I can't take it anymore!
by OneDayillBeFree inthe lying, the faking and pretending, the hiding, the endless mind-numbing meetings, service, preaching, assemblies, everything!.
most of the time i can handle it quite well.
but not today.
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mindseye
OneDay, you'll get a lot of advice, in the end only you know what will work for you. In my experience it was college that changed the game. It exposes you to new ideas and new people. I suggest finding something you love and majoring in it, and then putting in 100%. Before long the JWs will be in your rear view mirror. And while you're there take a class in philosophy, and/or logic. It helps to make the break. You're probably sick of religion, but I took a class on religion from a sociological/cultural perspective. It really gave me a new perspective on what my JW background was all about, and the motivations behind extreme religious beliefs (and how to avoid such systems).
peace.
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Nothing.
by Narkissos inperhaps this paradoxical "topic" is one with which we here have dealt a little more, or a little more consciously, than the average population.. we used to have our heads full of beliefs (which we called "truth") in every direction: on theology, on cosmology, on paleontology, on past history, on so-called prophetic future, on heaven above, on earth, on she'ol beneath.
on many things -- current events, traditions, other peoples' beliefs and behaviours -- we had strong opinions which were directly or indirectly (the famous "conscience" matters) part of the same deal.
and of course our life was filled with activities and relationships, a community of "friends," people to "help" or "teach," etc.. then, gradually or suddenly, we came to suspect, often with a measure of terror, that all of this was not what we had thought and might sooner or later turn into... nothing.. this "nothing" is perhaps one of the most scary thoughts to people contemplating leaving the org one way or another.
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mindseye
What a cool thread. Nothing is what everything's about right now. Taoism and Zen Buddhism is where it's at (nothing, that is).
When breaking away from the JW narrative, like many I swung towards the rationalist counternarrative. "New" atheists, etc. I have friend who's an ExJW, and he's going through the same thing, he's a big fan of Ayn Rand. But I've realized this is just another narrative, and can even become a fundamentalism. It falls into another dualism.
But real bliss came through reading some Zen and the Tao Te Ching (and Zhuangzi). The practice of zazen (zen mediation) helps too. The sort of letting go of all these narratives, and just . . . being (and nonbeing).
The postmodernists were a big help too, the western approach to deconstructing narratives. And phenomenologists like Heidegger (once I got over the fact that he was a freak'n Nazi) had a lot to say about direct experience. Oh yeah, and negative theologians.... Yes all of these can become other narratives to. But it is what they point to that it is all about (nothing).
Anyway this is getting to be too big of a post to be about nothing, thanks for the thread!
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very bad "JW" teenagers to "very good" JW's
by Iamallcool indo you know of any "jw" teenagers that were very bad in morals, but later in life they become elders, elderettes, etc...?
what were they like?
what are they like today?.
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mindseye
Yes, among a few people I saw the "born again JW" syndrome. These were JWs that sowed their wild oats as a teenager, doing all kinds of wild stuff, in one case even heavy drugs. Then they would have a "born again" moment and rediscover the Jehovah of their youth, and then become the strictest JWs ever.