I wouldn't judge anyone for staying in. Everyone has a different situation. What might work for one person might not work for another. But from my experience, it's like being in the mafia: the longer one is in, the more difficult it is to get out. I was fortunate to get out on the ground floor. Others I know were drawn further in: baptism, marriage to a JW, kids, ms or elder status. At each stage it gets harder to leave without profound repercussions. So the question is: what do you want in life? As soon as you figure that out, things will become clearer.
mindseye
JoinedPosts by mindseye
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29
Is it wrong to stay in?
by confusedteenager ini feel like, i don't believe in the majority of what the gb teaches, but all of my friends and family are invested in this organization and i feel it would be easier on me to just play the part and continue going through the motions then try to leave right now.
is this taking the coward way out?.
i just feel like i wouldn't have much to look forward if i stepped away..
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51
JWs say it's my fault I didn't go to university ?!
by ekruks inlike many on here, as a jw trying hard to follow the direction of the gb, i listened to the advice to pioneer and trust in jehovah to provide (mat6.33) instead of going to university.
after struggling for ages in low-paid physically-demanding jobs, i decided to become a student (thanks for the encouragement on here guys!).
i tell a jw i wish i had been to university when i was a teenager, and put all that pioneer time into studying hard for a good grade, get a good job, and if i had wound up tired as i am now, at least i would have been paying into a mortgage on a home and pension.
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mindseye
Chaserious wrote: AM3 also gave a talk saying we are pro-education - we are just selective about who does the educating. lol... He also warned that no matter what you major in they force you to take "Philosophy 1 and Philosophy 2" and "then all of a sudden it gets in there and the intellectual gripping of the mind, very hard to recover from," and that he could tell you all kinds of "horror stories" about this kind of thing. After all, only the GB should teach you how to think, not your philosophy class. If anyone is going to be doing "gripping of the mind", it's got to be the GB!
LOL! By "horror stories" he must mean taking a Philosophy class and learning critical thinking. One can also take a comparative religion course to get a balanced view of the world's rich religious traditions, and discover that the superficial 'spirituality' of the witnesses does not stack up. Oh, and a student is also required to take in-depth biology courses that prove evolution (AM3 mentions it made someone an "evolutionist", oooh scary!). AM3 and company are right about one thing - college leads most thoughtful people out of the "truth" - he forgot the part that it also leads to a more fulfilling life (and not just financially)!
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If you don't respect the integrity of WORDS your thoughts are crap
by Terry inthere once was a world--a long time ago when there was no printing press, no computers or newspapers or technology for instant communications.. something extraordinary might happen a few miles away and nobody would find out about it for weeks!.
and the details?
could you trust the details?
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mindseye
“The fish trap exists because of the fish. Once you've gotten the fish you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit. Once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning. Once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can talk with him?”
— Zhuangzi
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TELL US, please, are you Pre or Post--Enlightenment in your thinking?
by Terry inbefore the age of enlightenment the earth was filled with many nations living under vastly differing beliefs about the world.. .
tribes, nations and empires possessed fanciful superstitious beliefs about their own importance in the big picture.. .
religion helped man find a place among fearful gods and demons.
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mindseye
Howabout neither? I suppose I would fall on the more 'liberal' end of your scale. The Enlightenment brought many good things, but a shadow as well. No need to disregard the intellect for the spiritual/Being, or vice-versa. Unfortunately, Western thought often falls into this dualism. My suggestion for wayfarers is to read some existentialism for a critical stance towards 'post-Enlightenment thinking' (Sartre, Heidegger, Camus) ... then it might be a good idea to venture Eastward ...
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spirituality and religion - what are the differences?
by soft+gentle intrying to understand the differences.
started this topic on the xjwsforchrist forum as well and would like to ask jwn posters the same question.
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mindseye
Spirit comes from the latin word for breath. I think of it as 'being' - that which you cannot see, touch, or hear, but which animates existence. Someone who is spiritual is someone who cares about more than just material existence. Spirituality can pertain not only to a religious tradition, but to art, literature, or philosophy. Atheists such as Nietzsche can be described as spiritual.
I would describe religion as a cultural construct that systemizes spiritual beliefs. One of the words religion derives from, ligare, means to bind, or connect. So a religion binds the mythology, symbols, rituals, and ethics that make up a belief system, and it also binds the people who ascribe to that system. A religion also usually has a clergy or other mode of authority that serve to transmit a tradition to lay followers. Like all social institutions, religions are subject to corruption and other human foibles - which is why many people now describe themselves as 'spiritual' rather than 'religious.'
I had the antipathy that many feel towards religion. But then I took a class in college that looked at religion from an anthropological perspective. It gave me a strange new respect for religion. The rituals, mythology, and other aspects of religion that many of us find silly actually go back to our paleolithic ancestors. And though we may be enamoured with this new narrative we call 'progress', these prehistoric people had a reverence and respect for their world that we can learn a lot from. The world was a spirit - a 'thou' instead of an 'it'. Aspects in many religions connect us back to this sacred perspective.
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I Believe Catholicism And Its Trappings Are Silly, Strange & Weird!!!
by minimus inmy italian friend loves going to the "feasts" that occur in italy, boston or nyc.
these feasts feature a "saint" with dollar bills pinned around her and they parade the saint in a long procession and chant "viva (whomever)".
they are quite serious about this and are proud to talk about the past generations of observers who appreciated the events.
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mindseye
Most of the Catholics I know that critisize the church because of child abuse are EX Catholics
Might just be the ones that I know, liberal-minded Catholics who identify with the theology and tradition but disagree on many issues. And I'm not defending Catholicism as a whole, I know much is screwed up about it (which is why I never plan on being one). I just see some intellectual flexibility within the tradition that is not found in much more 'fundamentalist' religions.
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I Believe Catholicism And Its Trappings Are Silly, Strange & Weird!!!
by minimus inmy italian friend loves going to the "feasts" that occur in italy, boston or nyc.
these feasts feature a "saint" with dollar bills pinned around her and they parade the saint in a long procession and chant "viva (whomever)".
they are quite serious about this and are proud to talk about the past generations of observers who appreciated the events.
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mindseye
Diest - Sure, Catholicism throughout history has brought much scorn upon itself. But one difference I notice between individual Catholics and JWs is the intellectual freedom to criticize their organization on a number of issues. There's Gay Catholics, pro-choice Catholics, and a number of other Catholics who hold positions contrary to the church. Another telling example is sex-abuse scandals - I've heard many Catholics strongly criticize their church on this matter, whereas most JWs tend to ignore the issue in their religion.
finally awake - I can understand how you could have your view after your experience. I find that there is usually not a direct correlation between morals and religion.
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306
I Believe Catholicism And Its Trappings Are Silly, Strange & Weird!!!
by minimus inmy italian friend loves going to the "feasts" that occur in italy, boston or nyc.
these feasts feature a "saint" with dollar bills pinned around her and they parade the saint in a long procession and chant "viva (whomever)".
they are quite serious about this and are proud to talk about the past generations of observers who appreciated the events.
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mindseye
Though not Catholic by a long shot, I dig Catholicism on an aesthetic level. The rich history, iconography and rituals are cool. And I dig the Eastern/Greek Orthodox Church even more. They have better incense, rituals, and iconography without the legalism of the Catholic church. But despite what the pope says, many Catholics don't give a $%&*. Catholicism is much more of a cultural thing among the Catholics I know. It's something most JWs don't identify with at all, because they are disconnected by the richness of ancient tradition and culture. It's all 'reasoning from the scriptures' to them.
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What do you replace it with?
by konceptual99 inso... i am coming to the conclusion that pretty much all of the doctrinal stuff that i have believed for 25/30 years is built on a house of cards and it's about to come crashing down.
question is what do i replace it with?.
my intellectual head says that that whole thing is junk and there is almost certainly no god at all.
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mindseye
Konceptual, Talesin's advice to study some philosophy is a good place to start. It encourages one to look at things critically, even our basic assumptions about reality and perception.
I also agree with botchtower to think of life as a journey - explore different ideas and experiences. I've explored atheism (Dawkins etc. were provocative reads, but I now find their arguments simplistic), philosophy, theology, eastern spirituality, etc. I practice zen meditation, and find it gives me insight and a sense of peace. But I don't think of any of this as replacing the JW religion. I really don't feel the need for certainty any more. 'Certainty' takes the mystery and fun out of life.
Oh yeah, if you're not ready to give up on God just yet, read Karen Armstrong's 'Case for God'. It's one of the best books that I've read. Armstrong argues that that the childish debates and struggles we have over God are based on how we define God in the first place. It was a real eye-opener for me.
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This system is not all bad.
by Inisc inhi, everyone.. for many jws all they ever hear about is how wicked the world is and how it has gotten even worse lately.
the media does not help either.. and even for many ex jws who still have family who are still in, we have to listen to all that doom and gloom about the end of this system.. but, i would just like to recommend a website i found, (not sure if that violates jwn rules) .
its not religious at all, but is a news source of many heartwarming stories and news articles from all over the world that show just how wonderful life and and people can be.. i find it's a great antidote to remind us that the whole world is not wicked and in fact wickedness is still in the minority!.
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mindseye
Jeffro, I also agree that the system that JWs hope for is a delusion. To get a little Buddhist about it, JWs attachment to suffering springs from their desire for a reality that is not.
As for the Witness argument that things are getting 'so bad' in societal terms, I say it's a simplistic argument to begin with. Sure, some things are getting bad. There's a certain sense of alienation about the postmodern world that leads some people to shoot up a theatre or temple, for instance. Also, for the first time in history, you have drastically different cultures and communities living side by side, and this leads to conflict. But even if much is 'getting bad', it doesn't mean the JWs are right about reality.
On the flipside, life expectancy is longer than every before, comfort level is better, and health is better (in much of the world, anyway). At one time, even minor dental problems could lead to death. And as far as society is concerned, the world is a much better place than 50 years ago if you're a woman, black person, or gay person.