Damn, this seriously needs to be forwarded to the authorities that are looking into the hate speech claims. The independent could do a follow up article quoting this. They wouldn't even have to comment on it, they just need to show the article and it would speak for itself.
JonathanH
JoinedPosts by JonathanH
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69
More apostate hating from the Watchtower
by Igot2bme ini ran across this post on fb-.
the november 15, 2011 study version of the watchtower, has this to say in an article praising jehu's actions against the family of ahab.
"the prophet elisha sent one of the sons of the prophets to anoint jehu as king and to instruct him to kill every male of the apostate house of ahab.2 ki.
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Last Weekend Ever (according to OBVES) Whatcha gonna Do?
by LostGeneration inobves says the world ends next week, meaning this is the last weekend ever!
better make it a good one!.
i'm gonna step out on a limb and predict that i will have at least 1,784 more weekends before my dirt nap starts, so i'm gonna sit on my rear and watch as much college and nfl football as possible.
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JonathanH
Work on some math and biology homework.
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Just why would god create dinos??
by highdose inthe jw answer to this is that there must have been some purpose for them that we don't yet understand.. but dinos were pretty violent, basic animals who killed without mercy.
i know not all of them but alot of them did.
the ones that were vegetarian ate huge masses of vegatation, how is that productive to the earth?.
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JonathanH
Saying that love must be a part of the universe because you had to come to know it some how is a non-starter. That line of reasoning can be applied equally to anything you know that are also human constructs. Did God make hate into the fabric of the universe? Is the English Language part of the universe? What about Post modern Art? How did anyone come to know sadness if it isn't part of the universe? These things aren't found in the universe, they are found in us. They are human constructs. Some are evolutionary, others are emergent properties of our evolution. But they are woven into the universe. The universe is a vast amoral expanse which is overwhelmingly hostile to life.
Claiming parasites are a result of evolution doesn't get god off the hook. John Haught, as I mentioned before, has come up with some bizarre and twisted theology to try and explain why god would set into motion something he would know full well from the outset would create a world of horrors that belongs in some cosmic circus side show. If you believe in a creator god, then he is responsible for the eons of pain, fear, and violence that he beset on the concept he called "life."
So if a cold amoral universe, and a violent diseased planet, and the bible having been shown to be a set of fanciful myths no different from greek or roman mythology, and you still think "well, there are answers, we just don't know them." Is there anything that you could know that would convince you that your world view is wrong? How much would it take? Another holocaust? The near eradication of mankind by natural forces? Alien invasion? Or is it a matter of "It doesn't matter what happens, It's jesus or bust, I'll just work around reality as I need to?" That is something I had to ask myself when I was still a witness. With platitudes like "don't lean on your own understanding" and "the light get's brighter" I could answer just about any theological or scientific question with a mere shrug and that was enough. Is that really enough?
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Just why would god create dinos??
by highdose inthe jw answer to this is that there must have been some purpose for them that we don't yet understand.. but dinos were pretty violent, basic animals who killed without mercy.
i know not all of them but alot of them did.
the ones that were vegetarian ate huge masses of vegatation, how is that productive to the earth?.
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JonathanH
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_evil
natural evil is the theological term for evil that is not perpetrated by those that bear moral responsibility. The world of nature be it natural disasters or living things that do not bear moral responsibility for their actions fit into this category.
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Just why would god create dinos??
by highdose inthe jw answer to this is that there must have been some purpose for them that we don't yet understand.. but dinos were pretty violent, basic animals who killed without mercy.
i know not all of them but alot of them did.
the ones that were vegetarian ate huge masses of vegatation, how is that productive to the earth?.
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JonathanH
But all life does NOT rely on the violent death of other life in order to survive. And if some life survives without the violent (or otherwise) death of other life, then the possibility is there that all life can.
What is an acceptable amount of violence in nature for an all loving deity to create? Some things are vegetarian, some live off of waste, some live off of light. But then the rest rip out throats, hunt the young and the weak. Or lay their eggs inside the living so the larvae feast on the internal organs, saving the most vital ones for last to ensure the host survives as long as possible. If you think life is designed, then violence is built into the design of an incredibly large percentage of life. Did god not create the parasites? Why would something so specially designed to malign and kill in such an elaborate way suddenly be changed to be peaceful?
Your first paragraph is what I was talking about, the apathy. These questions aren't important, as long as you believe in the loving part of the story. But what you don't realize is that love isn't a deity, it isn't some universal law or force. It's you. That compassion is yours. The universe is a cold amoral place, the earth is a chaotic violent sphere and it's digesting you. It's great to focus on love, but don't try to say that it's built into the universe or it's a defining characteristic of the way the earth was made, because you won't find it there. You find it in yourself.
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Just why would god create dinos??
by highdose inthe jw answer to this is that there must have been some purpose for them that we don't yet understand.. but dinos were pretty violent, basic animals who killed without mercy.
i know not all of them but alot of them did.
the ones that were vegetarian ate huge masses of vegatation, how is that productive to the earth?.
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JonathanH
For the same reason he created the other 95% of species that ever existed but are now extinct. He was either a callous creator, or a collosal fuckup. You don't create an ecosystem, watch it systematically be destroyed by shifting continents, changing climates, disease, famine, and competition and then give yourself a pat on the back for incredible wisdom, or compassion.
Natural evil is a difficult problem for theodicy. Given that god could've made all life autotrophic (if you say it's impossible, you have a pretty low opinion of god's engineering skills), it's hard to come up with a justification for all life to rely on the violent death of other life in order to survive. The theologian John Haught comes up with the weak and twisted argument that it is god's grand drama, it is some incredible show unfolding before him to watch. But this only paints a portrait of a god sitting back and watching a pack of lions eat a baby elephant alive with it's intestines spilling out while it weakly yelps in fear and pain while god sits back with a foam rubber finger and a penant that says "go carnivores!" With everything that we know about biology in the modern era it becomes impossible to come up with a sane explanation that makes the designer of our biosphere a "good" individual. Theologians will try though. Most people won't care and say it's not important. The rest of us will put our head in our hands and shake our heads in a combination of incredulity at the explanations, and depression towards the intellectual apathy of those that don't care.
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Two more youths get kicked out of the organization, also kicked out of their house.
by JonathanH inso i used to work with these two younger gentlemen back when i washed windows for a local elder's company.
good kids, sons of an elder, responsible and hardworking.
i ran into him the other day briefly and he said him and his younger brother moved in together (they are about 19, and 18, maybe 20, and 18), and i was surprised.
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JonathanH
I'm pretty sure it was on account of the "brazen" way it was done. They knew it was wrong, they were purposely going against the society's council because they felt it was suffocating, and they were attempting to hide it. It wasn't just that some kids had a few drinks, it's that they said "Being a witness blows, let's all sneak off every night, be completely different people and do things they tell us not to do."
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Two more youths get kicked out of the organization, also kicked out of their house.
by JonathanH inso i used to work with these two younger gentlemen back when i washed windows for a local elder's company.
good kids, sons of an elder, responsible and hardworking.
i ran into him the other day briefly and he said him and his younger brother moved in together (they are about 19, and 18, maybe 20, and 18), and i was surprised.
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JonathanH
So I used to work with these two younger gentlemen back when I washed windows for a local elder's company. Good kids, sons of an elder, responsible and hardworking. I ran into him the other day briefly and he said him and his younger brother moved in together (they are about 19, and 18, maybe 20, and 18), and I was surprised. I didn't know they were doing well enough washing windows to get a place together. He said well that's what happens when you get DFed, his dad told them they had to find a place to live now. What did they get DFed for? Being young. They got tired and stressed by all the rules and regulations placed on them, and so they along with some other witness youths formed a little group that would sneak out at night and "get into trouble".
Really it was pretty tame and innocent stuff, they put a santa clause statuette ontop of their old high school, drank a few *gasp* alchoholic beverages, would go urban exploring in abandoned buildings, came up with code names for each other. He explained it to me that they needed alter egos. They couldn't be the buttoned down teenagers, sit around at an adult supervised get together and sing kingdom melodies every weekend. But they couldn't be like normal people. So they came up with alter egos that would come out at night and have fun, get into hijinx, and then come back in the morning and be good little Jdubs. Eventually it was discovered, the jig was up, and they were ousted. What's sad is that the older brother passed up scholarships to the local university. He says he's going to try and go to school now for Real Estate or business or something of that nature, he's not sure yet. I didn't get to talk to him for long.
Luckily (I guess) he didn't get DFed alone, he at least still has friends even if his Elder dad kicked him and his brother out. I told him he can call me if he ever needs anything too. Always helps to have a support network. I don't know if he'll ever go back or not, right now he says he plans on doing things he couldn't do before, like let his hair grow out a little. He's a black guy and he always kept his head shaved pretty close, but now he says he's going to let it grow for a bit just because he can. Just another example of youths getting driven out by them clamping down too hard. They bounce like a spring when too much pressure is applied. Hopefully we'll see JWs grow much older as a demographic as the young people leave in mass exodus over the coming years. For their own sake.
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My first English Essay for college, I wrote about my experience as a JW.
by JonathanH inso i am in my first semester of college, and i'm really enjoying it.
i am already tired since i work full time in addition to going to school full time, but i will get over that hump eventually.
anyway in my english 101 class our first essay due was to be a personal narrative, 4 pages(ish), in mla format using microsoft word.
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JonathanH
So I am in my first semester of college, and I'm really enjoying it. I am already tired since I work full time in addition to going to school full time, but I will get over that hump eventually. Anyway in my English 101 class our first essay due was to be a personal narrative, 4 pages(ish), in MLA format using microsoft word. Our professor had us give him three different topics per person that we could write about, and he would choose the one he wanted us to write about. One of my three was my being disfellowshipped (or Disassociated, same difference.) I got an "A" on the paper, a 92 to be exact. A few points were taken off for a few grammar and puncuation mistakes, and a couple points for some stylistic reasons he gave.
Over all I am proud of the essay. I was a bit daunted at first. Trying to fit the events, the reasons, the background info, the cultural info, and still make it into a personal narrative all in four pages was difficult, but after a couple of rough drafts and rewrites, and some trimming and editting I got it down to just over four pages. I'll include the essay in the end of this post. I wanted to post it as soon as I was done with it, but there is a program that checks the internet for plagiarism, and I didn't want it to show up that I pulled my whole essay from this site seeing as how that would probably break all sorts of rules. However, now the essay is finished and graded so I feel comfortable putting it up here.
Without further adu... The New Pharisees I used to be a Jehovah's Witness. I haven't been for probably three or four years now. For most people this probably doesn't sound like a big deal. A lot of people used to be Baptists, or Catholics, or Evangelicals, or what have you. Most people can be a Baptist, read, study and then say to themselves, “You know what? I don't think the Baptist faith is for me. I believe something different now.” That is not the case for a Jehovah's Witness. You see, when one becomes a Jehovah's Witness they publicly declare themself in front of thousands to be a servant of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York Incorporated. The corporation did not let me go easily. It was about two years ago on a pleasant and crisp autumn evening that my wife and I were getting dressed to go out on a little date. It wasn't going to be anything fancy. Perhaps Dinner and a movie, and then maybe go to the mall if it's still open. My wife was putting on makeup and I was still in my robe when there was a knock on our door. We weren't expecting anyone and it was already dark outside, but I went to see who it was. It was two neatly dressed men in crisp black suits. I knew them well; they were elders from the local congregation my wife and I had attended for years. They had not called in advance, nor had they been invited. They just decided to stop by that night. I knew that nothing good could come out of this visit. I went out onto my porch and closed the door behind me. “Hey, fellas. What are you guys doing here?” I asked them. I already knew the answer. “Well we haven't seen you at a meeting in quite a while. We were just coming by to see if everything was alright.” They said. This was a lie. At least the second part was. I hadn't been to a congregation meeting in a year or so, but their intent wasn’t to see if I was alright. “That's nice of you guys, but yeah I'm just fine thanks.” I replied moving my hand back towards the doorknob. “Well we just had a few questions for you.” One of the elders said as he stepped up onto my small wooden porch, putting us in uncomfortably close proximity. “Now really isn't the time, guys. My wife and I are getting dressed to go to dinner.” I told them in an attempt to extricate myself from what I already knew to be a bad situation. “Really this will only take a minute. We just wanted to ask you if you still consider yourself to be a Jehovah's Witness.” It's a dangerous question to answer. A bit of explanation may be necessary here. When you pledge yourself to “The Society”, as they call themselves, it's like joining the mafia. There is no polite exit from The Society. There is no means of leaving with a sense of mutual respect, there is no way to let bygones be bygones. The only way out is through a process of being publicly condemned and the subsequent severing of ties from everyone you ever knew that is part of The Society. They call this process “disfellowshipping”, and they take it very seriously. Anyone who is disfellowshipped is considered an enemy of God, fit only for destruction in God's great coming day of wrath. A disfellowshipped person is considered either weak and dominated by Satan, or a wicked ally of Satan united with him in a war against the Most Holy. Given that I was leaving of my own volition, I would fit into the latter category. The consequences that follow radically alter and sometimes ruin the lives of those being disfellowshipped. For starters you are shunned by everyone. When I say shunned, I mean a Witness will not make eye contact with you if they see you in the street. They will not talk to you, nor will they acknowledge that you even exist. This means family, friends, colleagues, everyone that you used to know. The shunning that follows usually leaves the victim completely alone and isolated in a world they have been taught to fear and hate. This is not an accident. It's to demonstrate that one is only safe and happy within the organization. “Do you consider yourself to be one of Jehovah's witnesses?” He asked me again. “No. No I do not.” I told him dryly. “You do recognize there will be consequences for this?” he said in a suddenly deeper tone. “Indeed.” I replied with narrowed eyes, and with that they left. The conversation had lasted no more than two minutes and my life was forever changed. When I came back inside my wife was crying on the floor, nearly having a panic attack. This may seem like a gross over reaction given that she has no idea what we were talking about, merely that they stopped by and talked to me for a minute. But she is also a Jehovah's Witness, and the reality is that even though the Elders are described as “God's loving shepherds”, most witnesses live with an uneasy fear of them. They have an unnatural degree of influence and control over the members of the congregation. You don't want them to know what movies you're watching, what music you’re listening to, or who you're spending time with. This is because the Watchtower leadership deems certain movies and music to be unacceptable and warns against what they call “bad association” (which can even include other Witnesses that are not considered “spiritually strong”.). But ultimately it falls on the whims of the elders to decide what is appropriate and inappropriate for a Christian. They may warn you (which is what they call “private council”), if someone reports that you were watching a movie containing spirit-ism or witchcraft for instance. Disobeying their council is considered “brazen conduct” and can be grounds for disfellowshipping if it is done too often. A few weeks later, after the paper work was all filed with the corporate headquarters, the announcement was made at the congregation that I had been disfellowshipped. The Elder body labeled me an “An apostate usurper of God”, and handed me a manila folder with detailed instructions as to how I can get back in “God's” good graces. Now you may have been wondering through this whole story as to how I got myself into this situation. I offered a friend of mine who had committed adultery and been disfellowshipped some help. This by itself was dangerous. However, he was a man of humble means, and didn't have much money or education. He largely lived off the kindness of friends and family, and they were all taken from him. He had been one of my closest friends, and so I e-mailed him and told him if he ever needed anything such as a place to crash or money, just let me know. I told him I wasn't afraid of retribution because I didn't think The Society was the lone path to truth and salvation. The organization considers such words to be heresy. I never got a reply to that e-mail. A year later when my friend had shown adequate repentance and remorse, he was re-instated back into the organization. And wouldn't you know it, that Judas turned me in to show how grateful he was to the organization. I don't think they gave him thirty silver coins; so much as a pat on the head, but he got back in the good graces of the servants of the corporation, he got his family back, his friends, and his sense of self-worth.
Now I am considered a heretic and an apostate, and I no longer have a family, and very few friends. However, what I do have is priceless. I don’t wake up every morning feeling like I’m a prisoner in a panopticon. I have intellectual freedom, and true peace of mind. I can live life and see the world as I see fit. I’ve been set free.
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For the board atheists....
by Jack C. inthis is a personal observation and certainly not representative of all atheists.
i enjoy discussions with folks of this persuasion; in general they appear well read and somewhat more educated than many believers.
as a group most atheists cringe and become insensed when discussing the existence of a deity with believers especially fundamentalists.
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JonathanH
Also the last sentence of your previous post shows considerable selective bias.
"too many (good) chance happenings occurred" for it to be without direction.
could just as easily be written
"too many (bad) chance happenings occurred" for it to be with (good) direction
Humans are poorly built, nature is a savage ballet of brutality, violence, famine, and disease, and the planet is an ever shifting death trap attempting to annihilate the specs of life that dare reside on it. If you're going to pray, pray that nothing intelligent created our world, and if it did, pray that you never meet the fiend.